How do you define Upstate NY?

[CNGL-Leudimin]

On an outline of New York State (the one above works) find the longest straight line. Extend it east.
Above = upstate, below = downstate.

That means I'm upstate while Zaragoza is downstate . Except that I'm nowhere near NY.

[kalvado]

On an outline of New York State (the one above works) find the longest straight line. Extend it east.
Above = upstate, below = downstate.

That means I'm upstate while Zaragoza is downstate . Except that I'm nowhere near NY.

Zaragoza is a relatively small mexican store in NYC, so yes - it is really downstate.

Or you meant something else?

[empirestate]

^ Well, that's just it. There is no tangible, measurable difference.
Similarly, what's different between Salamanca and Bradford? Mansfield and Corning?
By default, shifts in culture/lifestyle are going to be gradual. So if you're looking for a strict line, the 42nd parallel is the obvious (and only IMO) place to put it. It also works in terms of the definitions of "up" and "down"; neatly separating the two.

Well that's what I don't get: if there's no difference to one side or the other of the 42nd parallel, why do you consider it the only possible boundary, when there are other boundaries that do represent a tangible difference?



iPhone

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Zaragoza is a relatively small mexican store in NYC, so yes - it is really downstate.

Or you meant something else?

I meant the city in Spain. It's only 45 miles, and across the 42nd parallel, from were I live.

[kalvado]

Zaragoza is a relatively small mexican store in NYC, so yes - it is really downstate.

Or you meant something else?

I meant the city in Spain. It's only 45 miles, and across the 42nd parall,el from were I live.

Oh, that one...

[JJBers]

For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)

[empirestate]

For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)

Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.


iPhone

[JJBers]

For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)

Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.


iPhone

In all seriousness, I consider the I-84 border as the best border you can get.

[The Nature Boy]

For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)

People in the North Country must be asking themselves "what is upstate?"

[empirestate]

For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)

Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.


iPhone

In all seriousness, I consider the I-84 border as the best border you can get.

I agree that it's pretty close, but the pertinent question is why that happens to be. The idea is that you could decisively win an argument saying that Poughkeepsie is Upstate, whereas Newburgh isn't, and have a concrete reason to back that up beyond just saying that that's where you happen to draw the line.


iPhone

[roadman65]

From NJ we call Bear Mountain Upstate. Then again in North Central Jersey we call Toms River South Jersey, but people I know in Salem County say Toms River is North Jersey.

It all depends where you are.

[vdeane]

For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)

Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.


iPhone

I wonder what point it is where the cliche shifts from "everything north of me is upstate" to "everything south of me is downstate".

[empirestate]

My thought process is not based on differences.

That's fine, although just know that the question may therefore not apply to you, since it specifically wants to be thought of in terms of finding differences. (Or if we conclude that there's genuinely no difference to be found, that's also informative, but since we have identified a few so far, I don't think that's a likely outcome.)

It is literally impossible to draw a line based on culture shifts alone. So I'm resorting to the definition of the words themselves. The 42nd parallel is the only place where you can neatly separate up from down within the state. So in that sense, there is no argument to be made. But maybe I'm unclear as to what you are actually looking for when you say "differences"?

Well, I lay all that out early on in the thread: starting in the OP, and expanding a bit more in reply #4 (plus a couple of times afterward). But to summarize it here:

The most usual definition of Upstate that I use corresponds to the limits of Metro North railroad service. So the difference there would be that a person who lives Upstate could not regularly and easily commute into NYC, whereas someone who is not Upstate can. And if someone told you that, for example, Poughkeepsie is an Upstate city, the way you'd "win the argument" would be to say, "No way it is–I get on a train to Manhattan every morning for work."

An even more explicit delineation would be that Upstate is everything outside of the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District. This follows county lines (everything from Dutchess and Orange on down), but within those county lines there are taxes imposed on things like doing business or registering your car that aren't paid by people who live elsewhere. So that's a very real impact on everyday life that could be said to define Upstate vs. downstate. And the argument-winner there is, "I pay over a hundred bucks to register my car while other guys pay 30 or 40. I definitely don't live 'Upstate'."

So those two criteria seem like pretty solid ones to me. A few people have offered others, such as aligning with the NYC media market, or finding where local-born people predominantly have New York accents, but for the most part I don't think we've come up with anything much more convincing than my original ideas.

One of the most interesting new ideas that was mentioned is that Upstate coincides with settlement patterns based on migration from New England, whereas downstate is based on Dutch settlement originating around their colony at New York Harbor. This does seem to aptly describe the visible cultural differences, although the precise boundaries of this definition are necessarily fluid.

That said, I'd be interested to know what boundaries do represent tangible differences. Not even any state boundaries come to mind, much less boundaries within a state.

One place you might immediately notice this are things like liquor laws. For example, in Utah you have to join a club to buy a beer, but in Colorado (and 48 other states) you don't. (I'm over-simplifying, but you get my drift.)

[02 Park Ave]

For defining "downstate", it would be where the cable TV systems carry NYC TV stations.

For definiing Western NY, it would be where the population drinks "pop".

For defining "upstate", it would be the remainder of the state.

[Roadgeekteen]

Above I-287.

[vdeane]

This presents a problem. When you're in the city it makes sense to say "everything north of me is upstate" because 1) north is the only direction you can go to stay in NYS and 2) the state gets continually wider as you head north.
On the other hand, I've never heard "everything south of me is downstate". Obviously, there's no basis for it west of Syracuse anyways but it also just doesn't make sense where the state is hundreds of miles wide, instead of the width of Manhattan. I think the term "downstate" in general is not as widely used, and rarely if ever used to refer to areas north of the 42nd parallel. It's funny that going "down" requires going beneath the 42nd, but going "up" doesn't necessarily require going above it.

I guess that also means that the 42nd parallel is the northernmost possible limit of downstate?

Unless you're from the north country, in which case anything south of the thruway is downstate?

Well, obviously "everything south" is an exaggeration, but the definition of upstate does shift even among places that consider themselves to be upstate.  In the North Country, everything south of the Adirondacks is downstate.  For Albany, it's south of I-84.  For Rochester, it's an extension of long straight part of the Pennsylvania border.  So... where is the point where things shift from "downstate is south of me" to "upstate is north of me"?

[JJBers]

Above I-287.

Even as a person that doesn't go to NY that that much, that's a little low in the boundary

[empirestate]

Above I-287.

Okay, why there? What's different about life in Port Chester or Tarrytown as compared to, say, White Plains?

[Henry]

I say anything north of I-84 as well.

[Roadgeekteen]

oops, ment I-84.

[JJBers]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

[kalvado]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

Same way as someone gets brake confused with the throttle...

[Roadgeekteen]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

I honestly have no clue.

[empirestate]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

I honestly have no clue.

Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?

[empirestate]

I understand what you're looking for - but it's impossible to draw a clear cut line because every criterion includes and excludes different areas. And since "upstate" and "downstate" are relative anyways it just seems like we're searching for something that's impossible to find.

Normally I wouldn't expect a clear cut line to be possible, so I'd allow that any answer is necessarily going to be nebulous. (How far from a Metro North station represents a practical distance, for example?) But if we take the MCTD as a criterion, that follows county lines and so it would, indeed, be clear cut. Of course, the answer would most likely take in more than just that one criterion, and the question is never meant to presuppose a hard, bright dividing line.

As for the terms being relative, I do address that in my question, too. It seems to me there's a distinction to be made between the relative use of the terms "upstate" and "downstate" and the idea of specific regions called "Upstate" and "Downstate". (For comparison, see also "north", "south", "the North" and "the South".)

I guess to clear up the haze, the only thing to say is that the definition depends on your location and the criteria your using. It takes both factors to get a complete picture from each point of view. That said, I still think the 42nd parallel is the literal dividing line, and people from out of state would use that to differentiate. I think that's a foregone conclusion aside from the internal state debate.

That describes the status quo pretty well, but the intent of the question, I suppose, is to explore whether it's possible to find criteria alone that describe Upstate, thus taking out the subjectivity of location.

And I'm not as convinced as you that out-staters would agree on the 42nd parallel. Especially if they're not map-literate, I find it more likely they'd align with the stereotypical NYC-centric view, it being what they're most familiar with through mass media.

With regards to liquor laws, I get the general gist but don't think it really applies. The state line, not the law, is the reason the divide exists in that spot.

Then I guess I don't understand your question. You asked for boundaries that "represent tangible differences"...in other words, a place where "the state line, not the law, is the reason the divide exists in that spot." No?

Centuries ago before state lines were drawn, you couldn't have used such a law to figure out the divide. Similarly, if upstate and downstate split, and one adopted a tougher stance on something like liquor, there would be a clear divide, but that's not any reflection of the differences in the culture/lifestyle of the two places. So I'm still struggling on the whole idea of strict lines separating ways of life.

Ah, maybe that's the issue: I'm not thinking so much about "ways of life"; i.e., broad, fundamental differences in culture, but rather things that demonstrably affect everyday life. A broadly different culture might be an effect of that, but not necessarily the cause.

Finally, the whole "win the argument" thing doesn't make sense to me. Under what circumstances would an actual argument take place? I think the general population understands that the terms are relative.

Oh, that one's easy, since I believe I initially posted this right after just such an "argument". Don't try to take that too literally–it was really just small talk at a party, and there was no acrimony at all. But as an Upstater transplated to the NYC area, it's a discussion I've had many, many times, where one person or the other will talk about being from "Upstate", but then name a city that is decidedly not located in the region I'd call Upstate. Or vice versa.

So to "win the argument" is simply to state that difference of opinion, in such a way that the other person might change his view. And believe it or not, I've actually had some success with that–most people aren't holding stubbornly onto their own particular view; they often simply have never thought about it that much. (And actually winning an argument isn't the literal goal here; perhaps just to provide the terms of the argument to be made.)

Perhaps phrasing the question a different way would lead to the type of results you were looking for? (Presuming that the preceding four paragraphs are not the type of results you were looking for  )

Well, you'll note that I did realize that problem early on, and I've made a bunch of attempts to rephrase–mostly unsuccessful, so far. If I were to ask the question again, I'd actually take out the part about asking where the line is drawn, and ask only about the criteria for deciding. The idea being that, if we took everyone's criteria together and drew a fresh line based on them, we could see whether that line happened to fall where people would automatically say they place it.

But for that to work, you would have to accept the idea that there's a line to be drawn at all. Your view seems to be that there isn't, and that's a perfectly valid view–I certainly can't try to tell you you're wrong about that. It simply means that you'd be precluded from being able to answer the question; like if I said, "Here's a question for those of you from Utah" and you were not from Utah. :-)