MUTCD Violations

[traffic light guy]

Many areas such as beach cities, such as Ocean City, Altantic City, and so on. They have loads of signals that voilate the MUTCD, I'd post pictures but I'm too lazy to find them. But, there are several intersections that having 8" signals facing traffic, instead of 12". And I believe that this rule was established sometime arpund the 1970s or so. After that, the rule states that there must be at least one 12" head facing traffic, however there are a handfull of intersections with 8" heads only, what's also bizzare is that these installs were only about 5-6 years old.

[jeffandnicole]

Because you didn't read the MUTCD exceptions to 12" signal heads properly:

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part4/part4d.htm#section4D07

Option:
03 Eight-inch circular signal indications may be used in new signal faces only for:
C.The circular indications in a signal face that is located less than 120 feet from the stop line on a roadway with a posted or statutory speed limit of 30 mph or less

In every case you've cited (because I know those shore cities well), the intersections are less than 120 feet across.  In most cases, the signals are crossing narrow side streets rarely more than 40 feet wide.  And it's rare for the speed limits most of those towns to be above 30 mph; most of them are 25 mph.

(I'm also not sure if the rule was created in 1970; I think it's way more recent than that)

[Big John]

(I'm also not sure if the rule was created in 1970; I think it's way more recent than that)

I believe it was first in the 2009 edition

[Revive 755]

As jeffandnicole notes, most of those signals probably fall under the cases allowing 8 inch signals.  Also, in most cases a device that becomes non-compliant due to the MUTCD being updated is allowed to remain in use until it needs to be replaced or upgraded for other reasons.

(Edited to fix reference to a poster who has not posted in this thread)

[PHLBOS]

As Froggie notes

I believe you meant Jeffandnicole.

[cl94]

8 inch signals are certainly allowed under certain circumstances, it's just that most agencies stopped installing them altogether. I don't think NYSDOT installs them for anything- even small approaches get 12" heads.

[jakeroot]

I don't follow a lot of the Seattle DOT operations, but there are a lot of 8-8-8 signals all around downtown. Some look really new, but because I generally avoid Seattle, I'm not sure if they're recent installs or not (sometimes, I can tell by the state of the backplate -- faded = old, shiny black = new-ish). I do know that 12-8-8 signals are relatively uncommon. Either the signals are full 12-12-12, or 8-8-8 (alternatively, 8-8-12, bottom head = arrow). Also, I seem to recall some rule that required 12-inch red displays, regardless of distance between the signal head and the stop line. If that's true, that rule has been violated many times (especially if that rule came into effect before 2009). Then again, nearly all ramp meters in the Seattle area use 8-8-8 signals for the secondary, angled signal, so perhaps I made that rule up.

[jeffandnicole]

8 inch signals are certainly allowed under certain circumstances, it's just that most agencies stopped installing them altogether. I don't think NYSDOT installs them for anything- even small approaches get 12" heads.

New Jersey has always had a love of 8" signals. That said, on nearly every state project where there's new or updated signals they are using 12" signals.  But as noted there are exceptions, and smaller agencies, especially county and/or munis, you will still find 8" signals installed.

[Brandon]

Oh, I thought you meant violations like this:





But, Chicago does this as well:

[jakeroot]

Oh, I thought you meant violations like this:

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz298/midamcrossrds/100_3677_zpsb968d57a.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz298/midamcrossrds/100_3678_zps5fa10fa0.jpg

How often are those signs ignored? If I know Chicago drivers, I'd guess often.

[PurdueBill]

Oh, I thought you meant violations like this:

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz298/midamcrossrds/100_3677_zpsb968d57a.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz298/midamcrossrds/100_3678_zps5fa10fa0.jpg

How often are those signs ignored? If I know Chicago drivers, I'd guess often.

I once saw a CTA bus driver blasting his horn and screaming (as if he could be heard, but you could see him) at a driver in front of him on Michigan Ave at Congress Plaza obeying one of the asinine Left On Green Arrow Only signs below a 5-signal stack with green circle showing...the bus driver must always turn left anyway at them.

[steviep24]

Would most of New York City's traffic signals be in violation?. Most are 8 in. and due to the old style mast arms they use even for new signals they often aren't placed over the lanes as they should be.

[cl94]

Would most of New York City's traffic signals be in violation?. Most are 8 in. and due to the old style mast arms they use even for new signals they often aren't placed over the lanes as they should be.

8" signals are used for minor streets, which are all 25 mph, so that is not an issue by itself. As far as placement, one signal is always over a lane and the other one(s) are within an acceptable angle (see Figure 4D-4). They are fully compliant.

[mrsman]

Would most of New York City's traffic signals be in violation?. Most are 8 in. and due to the old style mast arms they use even for new signals they often aren't placed over the lanes as they should be.

8" signals are used for minor streets, which are all 25 mph, so that is not an issue by itself. As far as placement, one signal is always over a lane and the other one(s) are within an acceptable angle (see Figure 4D-4). They are fully compliant.

Legal or not, I've always felt that NYC's signals are placed in an odd location, such that if you are the first car stopped at the intersection, you have to tilt your head back considerably to see the signal.  Many of the newer installs are placed in better locations.

[jakeroot]

Would most of New York City's traffic signals be in violation?. Most are 8 in. and due to the old style mast arms they use even for new signals they often aren't placed over the lanes as they should be.

8" signals are used for minor streets, which are all 25 mph, so that is not an issue by itself. As far as placement, one signal is always over a lane and the other one(s) are within an acceptable angle (see Figure 4D-4). They are fully compliant.

Legal or not, I've always felt that NYC's signals are placed in an odd location, such that if you are the first car stopped at the intersection, you have to tilt your head back considerably to see the signal.  Many of the newer installs are placed in better locations.

I'd be fine with NYC's standard placement, if they also added some secondary 8-inch signals on the mast.

[mariethefoxy]

the NYC setup is really bad compared to other cities and areas that put multiple lights on a straight mast arm such as this example in downtown Manhcester NH

[M3019C LPS20]

Would most of New York City's traffic signals be in violation?. Most are 8 in. and due to the old style mast arms they use even for new signals they often aren't placed over the lanes as they should be.

8" signals are used for minor streets, which are all 25 mph, so that is not an issue by itself. As far as placement, one signal is always over a lane and the other one(s) are within an acceptable angle (see Figure 4D-4). They are fully compliant.

Legal or not, I've always felt that NYC's signals are placed in an odd location, such that if you are the first car stopped at the intersection, you have to tilt your head back considerably to see the signal.  Many of the newer installs are placed in better locations.

I'd be fine with NYC's standard placement, if they also added some secondary 8-inch signals on the mast.

What you describe is an actual NYCDOT practice that has been going since the late-2000s. The additional signal on the existing mast-arm/guy wire mast complies with the one signal per lane requirement. You could find many new and existing intersections (modified) in New York City that have the additional vehicular heads in use.

[M3019C LPS20]

Would most of New York City's traffic signals be in violation?. Most are 8 in. and due to the old style mast arms they use even for new signals they often aren't placed over the lanes as they should be.

Not necessarily, because the posted citywide speed limit is 25MPH. As others here pointed out, 8" vehicular signals are ideal for roads marked 30MPH or below. Some major thoroughfares that use 12" traffic signals are also marked 25MPH, but they are part of the "Vision Zero" program developed by the NYCDOT. Are they necessary? I personally don't think so, as standard 8" heads would suffice.


Until recently, the NYCDOT didn't fully adapt to the one signal per lane rule, yet not all old installations are placed wrongly where visibility would be an issue. Pole-mounted signals on the corners of streets often aid those that are directly behind the "STOP" line.