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Author Topic: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)  (Read 116113 times)

Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1450 on: January 07, 2020, 07:39:32 PM »

I see that US-58 and I-95 are noted "this route has tolls."  Did you program it to also show routes without tolls?  Because "Norfolk" goes thru a toll tunnel to get to US-58 and the Dominion Blvd. bridge toll to get to US-17.
No tolls using I-95 and I-295 and I-64 to downtown Norfolk.
The picture shown is a routing without any special programmed features. If you select "avoid tolls", it will not show any routings that involve tolls. The picture shown was merely entering "Norfolk" and "Raleigh" in the routing box, and the two options shown.

That is very odd.
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1451 on: January 07, 2020, 07:41:00 PM »

I see that US-58 and I-95 are noted "this route has tolls."  Did you program it to also show routes without tolls?  Because "Norfolk" goes thru a toll tunnel to get to US-58 and the Dominion Blvd. bridge toll to get to US-17.
No tolls using I-95 and I-295 and I-64 to downtown Norfolk.
The picture shown is a routing without any special programmed features. If you select "avoid tolls", it will not show any routings that involve tolls. The picture shown was merely entering "Norfolk" and "Raleigh" in the routing box, and the two options shown.

That is very odd.
When I selected "avoid tolls" for a Norfolk to Raleigh routing, it shows the same two routes, I-95 to US-58, and I-95 to I-64, except using I-64 between I-664 and I-464, then using I-464 north, to avoid the tunnel on the former routing.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1452 on: January 07, 2020, 07:44:33 PM »

When I mess with where the routing starts on the southern end, sometimes it will indeed show US-64 / US-17 as an option.
This particular routing originates on the US-64 freeway west of I-95, ending in Virginia Beach at the Oceanfront.
I don't.

Nash Community College to VA Beach oceanfront does not show a highway route south of I-95 and US-58.
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1453 on: January 07, 2020, 07:50:00 PM »

Nash Community College to VA Beach oceanfront does not show a highway route south of I-95 and US-58.
For me, if I used a location off the freeway, such as the college, it did not show it, but if you drag the starting location onto the freeway, it did.

For instance, if I was driving on the freeway and I did a routing on Google Maps to determine the best way before the split, it would show at that point since I’m on the freeway. For whatever reason, that particular route won’t show otherwise.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1454 on: January 07, 2020, 09:11:32 PM »

Nash Community College to VA Beach oceanfront does not show a highway route south of I-95 and US-58.
For me, if I used a location off the freeway, such as the college, it did not show it, but if you drag the starting location onto the freeway, it did.
For instance, if I was driving on the freeway and I did a routing on Google Maps to determine the best way before the split, it would show at that point since I’m on the freeway. For whatever reason, that particular route won’t show otherwise.
The US-64/US-17 route does not come up when I do that.

I don't want to be "jiggling" the software tool to try to get it to come up with something that I like.  The obvious thing is to look for commonly occurring results.
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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1455 on: January 14, 2020, 05:33:40 PM »

DOT: Local section of I-87 could start in 2027
Quote
Construction of a portion of the proposed 213-mile Interstate 87 project linking Raleigh and Norfolk, Virginia, could begin as soon as 2027 and start with a section of U.S. Highway 17 from the Virginia state line down to the Elizabeth City bypass.

Randy Midgett, construction engineer for the N.C. Department of Transportation’s Division 1, told members of the Elizabeth City Rotary Club Monday that land acquisition for the 13-mile stretch of what will be I-87 could begin in 2025.

Midgett said that first stretch of the I-87 project is estimated to cost around $187 million.

“What we are seeing is projects coming out that are in movement along that (corridor),” Midgett said. “Right now, that is in preliminary design. The department has recently completed feasibility studies and what that feasibility study does is give us a guidebook to plan projects in that corridor. These projects have to compete for funding with other projects.”

Midgett said several projects connected to the proposed I-87 project are also in the preliminary stages. Two interchanges in Perquimans County — one at Harvey Point Road and U.S. Highway 17 in Hertford and another at New Hope Road and U.S. Highway 17 in Winfall — are scheduled to start construction in 2028.

“These are indirectly associated with preparing for the future I-87,” Midgett said.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 05:45:21 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1456 on: January 14, 2020, 05:50:29 PM »

Quote
Interstate 87 project linking Raleigh and Norfolk, Virginia,
Sigh ... :rolleyes:
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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1457 on: January 14, 2020, 05:52:06 PM »

Quote
Interstate 87 project linking Raleigh and Norfolk, Virginia,
Sigh ... :rolleyes:
Its northern terminus would be in Norfolk and its southern terminus would be in Raleigh.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 05:58:44 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1458 on: January 14, 2020, 06:47:49 PM »

U.S. Route 460 runs from Norfolk, Virginia to Frankfort, Kentucky.

U.S. Route 62 runs from the Mexico-US border at El Paso, Texas, to Niagara Falls, New York, near the Canada–US border.
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1459 on: January 14, 2020, 08:18:44 PM »

I-17 runs from Phoenix, Arizona to Flagstaff, Arizona providing an interstate routing between Phoenix and I-40 East that is 46 miles longer than arterial roadways.

A segment of I-90 runs from Rapid City, South Dakota to Crow Agency, Montana providing an interstate routing between the two points that is 55 miles longer than arterial roadways.

The southern segment of the future I-49 corridor runs from Lafayette, Louisiana and New Orleans, Louisiana along the US-90 corridor providing an interstate routing that is 22 miles longer than the existing I-10, providing an alternative corridor.

I-41 runs from Milwaukee, Wisconsin to Green Bay, Wisconsin providing an interstate routing that is 16 miles longer than the existing I-43, providing an alternate corridor and access to cities along that route.

Are these vanity interstate highways?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:26:14 PM by sprjus4 »
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planxtymcgillicuddy

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1460 on: January 14, 2020, 08:30:36 PM »

I-17 runs from Phoenix, Arizona to Flagstaff, Arizona providing an interstate routing between Phoenix and I-40 East that is 46 miles longer than arterial roadways.

A segment of I-90 runs from Rapid City, South Dakota to Crow Agency, Montana providing an interstate routing between the two points that is 55 miles longer than arterial roadways.

The southern segment of the future I-49 corridor runs from Lafayette, Louisiana and New Orleans, Louisiana along the US-90 corridor providing an interstate routing that is 22 miles longer than the existing I-10, providing an alternative corridor & second route out of New Orleans.

Are these vanity interstate highways?

I can't speak for the first two, but for 49, I say yes, even though it gets people's blood to boiling, especially certain members of this forum from Louisiana. 49 has no business extending past Fort Smith, AR; renumber 49 to 51 between Texarkana and Lafayette, and make the Lafayette to NOLA portion into either a 3di or a directional spur (if they wanted to, Louisiana could pull a Texas and turn 49 from Lafayette to NOLA I-10S, the current routing I-10C and I-12 into I-10N, freeing up 12 for something else......Austin to Houston, anybody?)
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1461 on: January 14, 2020, 08:32:05 PM »

I can't speak for the first two, but for 49, I say yes,
In terms of usage or merely numbering?
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1462 on: January 14, 2020, 09:33:56 PM »

I can't speak for the first two, but for 49, I say yes,
In terms of usage or merely numbering?

Most likely he considers the portion of I-49 between Texarkana and Ft. Smith to be less than optimal in terms of cost v. benefits -- or simply too much for AR to chew off.  We all have our opinions and/or analyses.  But the long-term and historic backing for the full-fledged corridor will probably mitigate in its favor -- although the timeframe for completion will in all likelihood be stretched waaaaaaaaaaay out!   And that same backing is pretty much vested in the number "49" for the corridor -- so it's unlikely that'll change regardless of how long the center section takes (funny thing about center corridor sections running through AR -- they tend to draw more than their share of controversy!).
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1463 on: January 14, 2020, 09:36:41 PM »

I-17 runs from Phoenix, Arizona to Flagstaff, Arizona providing an interstate routing between Phoenix and I-40 East that is 46 miles longer than arterial roadways.
Arterial highways that did not exist in arterial form back in 1956.

The direct connecting of Tucson, Phoenix and Flagstaff was worthy in and of itself for an Interstate highway back in 1956.

A segment of I-90 runs from Rapid City, South Dakota to Crow Agency, Montana providing an interstate routing between the two points that is 55 miles longer than arterial roadways.
Arterial highways that did not exist in arterial form back in 1956.

I-90 is transcontinental and needed to be routed somewhere, and while I don't know the exact rationale for that segment, I see that Montana with its huge Interstate mileage was relieved of close to 150 miles of Interstate construction by Wyoming; and a Montana routing doesn't really seem any more logical than its current routing even from a traffic standpoint.

The southern segment of the future I-49 corridor runs from Lafayette, Louisiana and New Orleans, Louisiana along the US-90 corridor providing an interstate routing that is 22 miles longer than the existing I-10, providing an alternative corridor.
There are major population centers around Houma, and have any officials actually touted this as an Interstate highway to connect NOLA with I-10 West?

This may be vanity.

I-41 runs from Milwaukee, Wisconsin to Green Bay, Wisconsin providing an interstate routing that is 16 miles longer than the existing I-43, providing an alternate corridor and access to cities along that route.
Already a full freeway before it was designated I-41.  Has it actually been touted as a connector between Milwaukee and Green Bay?

Serves major population areas in the middle, Fond du Lac, Oshkosh and Appleton.
 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 09:40:39 PM by Beltway »
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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1464 on: January 14, 2020, 10:12:11 PM »

A segment of I-90 runs from Rapid City, South Dakota to Crow Agency, Montana providing an interstate routing between the two points that is 55 miles longer than arterial roadways.
Arterial highways that did not exist in arterial form back in 1956.
Wat.

.

.

.

PS: I-90 probably goes as-is to better serve Yellowstone.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1465 on: January 14, 2020, 10:21:12 PM »

A segment of I-90 runs from Rapid City, South Dakota to Crow Agency, Montana providing an interstate routing between the two points that is 55 miles longer than arterial roadways.
Arterial highways that did not exist in arterial form back in 1956.
Wat.
PS: I-90 probably goes as-is to better serve Yellowstone.
Could be.

I see this is one of those situations where a longer 1956 segment routing saved total construction mileage.

The US-212 routing for I-90 would have added 41 miles of construction, assuming that I-25 was continued up to I-90/US-212.

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1466 on: January 14, 2020, 11:53:56 PM »

This thread's gone awry.
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1467 on: January 15, 2020, 05:59:10 AM »

There are major population centers around Houma

Serves major population areas in the middle, Fond du Lac, Oshkosh and Appleton.
Is Greenville, NC, a metro of 100,000 and growing, not considered a major population area? The metro is only 10 miles away from the US-64 / Future I-87 corridor, connected by 4-lane highway, and the US-17 corridor is the direct connection between Norfolk and Greenville today. An upgrade of US-17 to interstate standards would complete an interstate connection between Norfolk and Greenville, serving two major population areas.

The NC-11 corridor between Kinston and US-64 has proposed to be upgraded to interstate standards as well, to further complete the connection, and to provide access to the I-87 corridor from Kinston and the Global TransPark, Goldsboro, Wilson, and other areas that it would connect in the central eastern region.

The US-17 corridor south of US-64 serves major population centers of New Bern, Jacksonville, Wilmington, and other areas along the eastern coast. Those would all see improved access to Norfolk with an improved US-17. These interstate upgrades could also continue south of US-64, especially if US-17 alone is ever improved to interstate standards in the future throughout the state.

As far as the directly connecting Norfolk-Raleigh argument, it may not be fully true, but I’ve already refuted in above posts it would certainly supplement the existing US-58 connection, and provide a second major southerly corridor and could draw traffic from the eastern half of Hampton Roads, especially during peak hours. Along the I-64 corridor from I-264 to I-464, along with everything south of I-64 along the US-17 and VA-168 corridors which have been significantly growing in the past 20 years, and everything in between - there’s major areas served in this entire section along including Greenbrier, and it would only be around 15 miles added by taking a completed I-87 over US-58, and the travel time would be no different - only the former would offer a corridor without traffic signals, without congested urban areas with 35 mph speed limits, allow a uniform 70 mph speed limit throughout, and avoid a 50 mile stretch of I-95 which could be a major save during peak weekends. This argument that the corridor is entirely vanity just doesn’t hold true in the reality of things, keeping in mind US-64 is already completed to freeway, it’s merely an upgrade of US-17 ultimately, along with looking at future outward growth southwards and increasing traffic congestion in the region as a whole, plus the above mentioned connections with Greenville, and improved access to the US-17 corridor overall with better connections to New Bern, Jacksonville, and Wilmington.

It’s now apparent that the corridor is now being studied and considered by the HRTPO, FTAC, the City of Chesapeake, and has beginning to gain some leverage around the area overall. If the segment between the state line and Elizabeth City begins by 2027, I could certainly see a bigger push on both sides of the border to connect that completed segment to I-64 by upgrading the 12 mile US-17 segment in Virginia, especially as growth continues southwards, Elizabeth City continues to grow and develop further, etc. This segment to Elizabeth City piece has been envisioned as being completed as a freeway in the long term for decades, at least on the North Carolina side. It’s not a new development solely because I-87 was created.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 06:06:32 AM by sprjus4 »
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planxtymcgillicuddy

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1468 on: January 15, 2020, 11:42:49 AM »

This thread's gone awry.

Welcome to AARoads.
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1469 on: January 15, 2020, 12:40:17 PM »

This thread's gone awry.

Welcome to AARoads.

For better or worse, this is what happens when two posters set up diametric positions on a subject -- here, the worth/value of the I-87 corridor in general.   Ironically, both are VA residents, one posting from a location affected by any future development of said corridor, the other a long-time critic of such projects.  Sort of reminds me of the McEnroe/Borg duels in the '80's -- a lot of volleying back and forth, but for the most part serving up returnable strikes.  Having been in a similar situation a few years back (concerning a L.A. issue), it's difficult to see an end to all this -- at least the participants are able to hike up their post count in big chunks!  But it's starting to look a bit like the Monty Python "Argument Clinic" sketch -- "No I didn't"/"You most certainly did!" back-and-forth refutation of the other's positions.  Guys, it was fun for a while; but it's getting a bit long in the tooth.  Maybe one of you should head east on I-64 and the other west and meet in Colonial Williamsburg and have it out, hash it out, or whatever floats your common boat.  Or at least come up with something original after these several months of repetition.  Just a thought!
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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1470 on: January 15, 2020, 01:07:24 PM »

This thread's gone awry.

Welcome to AARoads.

For better or worse, this is what happens when two posters set up diametric positions on a subject -- here, the worth/value of the I-87 corridor in general.   Ironically, both are VA residents, one posting from a location affected by any future development of said corridor, the other a long-time critic of such projects.  Sort of reminds me of the McEnroe/Borg duels in the '80's -- a lot of volleying back and forth, but for the most part serving up returnable strikes.  Having been in a similar situation a few years back (concerning a L.A. issue), it's difficult to see an end to all this -- at least the participants are able to hike up their post count in big chunks!  But it's starting to look a bit like the Monty Python "Argument Clinic" sketch -- "No I didn't"/"You most certainly did!" back-and-forth refutation of the other's positions.  Guys, it was fun for a while; but it's getting a bit long in the tooth.  Maybe one of you should head east on I-64 and the other west and meet in Colonial Williamsburg and have it out, hash it out, or whatever floats your common boat.  Or at least come up with something original after these several months of repetition.  Just a thought!
I think a lot of this is because not only do they have differing opinions on many transportation issues in the wider region, but they're also not the type to let things go when it becomes clear that the other person isn't going to change their mind.  The same dynamic happens in many other places with other members, but since most other people will eventually back down or move on to other things, it doesn't go on for pages and pages.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1471 on: January 15, 2020, 02:15:01 PM »

I think a lot of this is because not only do they have differing opinions on many transportation issues in the wider region, but they're also not the type to let things go when it becomes clear that the other person isn't going to change their mind.  The same dynamic happens in many other places with other members, but since most other people will eventually back down or move on to other things, it doesn't go on for pages and pages.
I would have very little to say here if the advocates would simply back off from the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate" claim.

There are 21 or 22 extra miles that they think they can overcome by 2045 or beyond, but they can't in mileage and unlikely in significant time improvement.

But that apparently is the core of their justification, that it has to be promoted as something more than just a "super arterial" to obtain enough support to get it built.
 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 02:17:18 PM by Beltway »
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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1472 on: January 15, 2020, 07:11:32 PM »

I think a lot of this is because not only do they have differing opinions on many transportation issues in the wider region, but they're also not the type to let things go when it becomes clear that the other person isn't going to change their mind.  The same dynamic happens in many other places with other members, but since most other people will eventually back down or move on to other things, it doesn't go on for pages and pages.
I would have very little to say here if the advocates would simply back off from the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate" claim.
Fine by me. In Virginia there seems to be some support (although I'm not in a position to judge how much) for a freeway connection between Norfolk and Elizabeth City. In North Carolina there is certainly support for a freeway connection between Elizabeth City and Raleigh, connecting the capital city to the northeastern portion of the state. Put these ideas together and you have I-87.
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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1473 on: January 15, 2020, 07:24:05 PM »

This comment is LATE, and I know my comments have been covered numerous times on this  forum. Here’s my take on I-87:

-I hate the number and wish I-56 would have been pursued. At the very least I’d like to see I-87 replace I-664 if the number is kept.

I-87 will only benefit Eastern North Carolina, this is North Carolina’s MO. This Interstate will never go away for this reason. These upgrades would have happened anyway via the ongoing improvements to US-17 in NC FWIW.

A majority of the US 64 freeway that will become I-87 is already built in NC. I don’t mind the interstate upgrades as much for this reason.

North Carolinians from the Piedmont and points west will mainly use I-87 to get to the outer banks as they do today.

I don’t believe this route will do much to help increase intermodal opportunities between Raleigh and the Port of Virginia. A majority of the freight moved from the port is by two major Class 1 railroads. Movements by rail will only increase with the opening of the CSX CCX Terminal in Rocky Mount.

If VA ever decides to upgrade US 58 with or without tolls, I-87 will be an even less valuable as an option to Norfolk and Virginia Beach for traffic originating from I-95 and points west.

I’d prefer NCDOT to construct a tollway from the State Line to OBX. It seems like a much better investment. The easier it is to get to OBX, the better.

I’d like to see the I-87/I-95 interchange upgraded in both design and signage. When I’m traveling for work from Richmond to Raleigh, I always good a good laugh when I see the sign that says “I-95 Nashville” as if Metro Raleigh isn’t 45 minutes away.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 07:26:17 PM by tjcreasy »
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstate 87 (NC-VA)
« Reply #1474 on: January 15, 2020, 08:35:31 PM »

At the very least I’d like to see I-87 replace I-664 if the number is kept.
I-664? Or I-464? An extension of the corridor up I-464 to Downtown Norfolk and I-264 would be logical once it is completed to the area.

If VA ever decides to upgrade US 58 with or without tolls, I-87 will be an even less valuable as an option to Norfolk and Virginia Beach for traffic originating from I-95 and points west.
I do agree with this, and ultimately would rather see US-58 the main interstate route out to I-95 South in a perfect world, but VDOT’s recent study indicated it would cost at least $2+ billion, and I’d say the chances of any major upgrade is slim to none, especially considering the billions of dollars of unfunded I-81, I-64, and I-95 widenings, and the entire I-73 corridor that will be prioritized over that.

With the recent support of the I-87 corridor being viewed as the future southern interstate connection out of the area, and if I-87 construction advances in North Carolina, there is likely to be more support to complete the connection to I-64 by upgrading 12 miles of limited-access US-17 rather than 60 miles of non-limited-access US-58 that would require at least 20 miles built on new location. Less mileage, less construction cost ultimately for Virginia with North Carolina bearing most of the costs, and completing a Hampton Roads interstate link to I-95 South and Raleigh, albeit slightly longer distance than the existing US-58 corridor.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 08:41:31 PM by sprjus4 »
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