Tapers and diagrammatic signage

Started by Chris, November 04, 2009, 06:19:02 AM

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Scott5114

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 05, 2009, 11:38:14 AM
The stippled-arrow versus one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatic issue was the subject of my comments to FHWA during the 2008 MUTCD rulemaking process.  My submission can be found here:

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/contentStreamer?objectId=09000064806a56a4&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

Fantastic job, Mr. Winkler. Said my thoughts on the matter exactly, except you had the history from the '78 MUTCD to back it up. Bravo!

Quote from: Chris on November 05, 2009, 05:33:55 AM
^^ That first sign is hard to comprehend at 60 - 65 mph. The second one is better, also more like international standards (though that's not really an important issue in the U.S.)

It's really not, because diagrammatics such as this are not really meant to designate where individual lanes go. Also, they tend to appear rather far back from the interchange, giving way to more traditional lane-assignment signage as the interchange approaches. As you can see in Mr. Winkler's comments, they are really much more useful for simplifying complex interchanges in a streamlined way. Because the signs are so large (that sign is 4 lanes wide) and unusual compared to normal signs (there is exactly two that I know of in Oklahoma, one in OKC and one in Tulsa), they're very attention-grabbing and really carry a "hey, look, big interchange coming up, pay attention" message.

Here is the same sign from farther away. Notice the size of this behemoth.


Here are some more examples from other states. Kansas is the best at diagrammatics, but I don't have many more pictures from there online as of yet.


MO


MO again. Notice the lack of lane lines.


Wisconsin shows us how diagrammatics can help in complex intersections like the Zoo Interchange in Milwaukee. Never mind the lane lines...this diagram concisely gets across the message of "45 to the left, 94 straight, 894 to the right". The exact details of lane assignment isn't important at this point...the main reason of having the diagram IMO is so that people can start filtering to the left or the right as needed, then when the traditional down-arrow signage appears, you can select the correct lane much easier, already being close to it.


An example from the same interchange with NO diagrammatic. See how much easier it is with the diagram?


Another example from Milwaukee's Stadium Interchange.


Part of one from Madison, as well as the left side of Dan Garnell's head, which really has no navigational value for travelers.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef


vdeane

NY uses tapers pretty much for exiting only (in this scenario, they are actually very common).  There is actually one used for entering, but it could be easily be removed (it's due to striping).
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.076764,-77.623268&spn=0.005016,0.007006&t=k&z=17

What is common, on the other hand, is inadequate acceleration/deceleration lanes, causing ramps to act as tapers even when they aren't.

Personally I think NY over-does the use of diagrammatic signs, especially the Thruway Authority in Buffalo.  Check out this sign, and look at the interchange it leads to (also note that Google misspelled Thruway).
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.862785,-78.792036&spn=0,359.985988&z=16&layer=c&cbll=42.86286,-78.792022&panoid=C1gVnLHggCcnEzC6hdNc2Q&cbp=12,184.98,,0,-14.98
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Duke87

The beauty of those stippled-arrow diagrammatic signs is that if done right, there's no room for ambiguity - it spells out for you exactly what goes where graphically, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

I get the sense, though, that that doesn't always entirely occur to Joe motorist. I have on more than one occasion fascinated a passenger in the car with my ability to read highway signs and get in the proper lane so far in advance of when I absolutely need to be in it. Most people don't seem to be capable of picking out the little details in diagrammatic signs the way I am. People who aren't highway enthusiasts don't notice signs to such a degree. I remember when I was explaining Clearview to my father - he never noticed that the font on highway signs was ever any different until I pointed it out to him.
So the need to grab attention is really important, as otherwise a lot of people will fail to fully notice and end up going the wrong way.

Another such "mind blowing" moment with my father, actually, involves optional lanes. The location in question was the ramp off the Throggs Neck Bridge onto the Cross Island Parkway. He was asking why I wasn't getting in the right lane to get off. I told him the second lane to the right (which we were in) would also allow us to get off, as the signs clearly indicated. To him, it didn't occur to try and actually read the signs in detail. His level of comprehension is nothing more than "I want to get off, I should be in the right lane".
Now, granted, the vast majority of the time that's true, but obviously not always.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

architect77

Quote from: Chris on November 05, 2009, 05:33:55 AM
^^ That first sign is hard to comprehend at 60 - 65 mph. The second one is better, also more like international standards (though that's not really an important issue in the U.S.)
These diagramatical overheads are always followed with lane-specific arrows. You never have to rely solely on them.

Scott5114

This is my favorite diagrammatic in Kansas City:

Google Street View
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Riverside Frwy

Out here in California, we will never have nice new reflective style signs, let alone a diagram sign. :-/

Our signs are old pieces of crap that make my eyes bleed. X-(

myosh_tino

Quote from: Riverside Frwy on November 06, 2009, 12:32:54 AM
Out here in California, we will never have nice new reflective style signs, let alone a diagram sign. :-/

Our signs are old pieces of crap that make my eyes bleed. X-(
Not sure what you're talking about but Caltrans is slowly replacing older button copy signs with new reflective signs that should include exit numbers.  IMO, the lack of use of the diagrammatical sign in California is not a big deal.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

agentsteel53

those old porcelain signs are some of the most attractive signs found anywhere!  I fail to see how something like this makes you bleed:



there are diagrammatical signs in CA - I think the one on I-15 southbound at the I-215 split just south of Cajon Pass is still there.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

Chris


thenetwork

Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 06, 2009, 09:46:51 AM
those old porcelain signs are some of the most attractive signs found anywhere!  I fail to see how something like this makes you bleed:




Agreed...I tend to look at older California BGS as a working history of the road I'm on.  I've always loved the "patches" or "shadow" remnants of what route(s) the freeway used to host (like the pic above).  I also love the "Dirty white" look of the lettering and the shields along with the shade of green they use. 

I absolutely hate the new Interstate shields they use on the newer signs.

florida

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 05, 2009, 11:58:18 PM
This is my favorite diagrammatic in Kansas City:

Google Street View

Holy arrows! They look like a UFO and its offspring.

Quote from: Riverside Frwy on November 06, 2009, 12:32:54 AM
Out here in California, we will never have nice new reflective style signs, let alone a diagram sign. :-/

Our signs are old pieces of crap that make my eyes bleed. X-(


That blasphemous statement will not be (and apparently has not been) tolerated on here  ;-) :)
So many roads...so little time.

agentsteel53

Quote from: thenetwork on November 06, 2009, 01:52:16 PM

I absolutely hate the new Interstate shields they use on the newer signs.

the surface-level shields that are the wrong shape are even worse!
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

myosh_tino

#37
Quote from: thenetwork on November 06, 2009, 01:52:16 PM
I absolutely hate the new Interstate shields they use on the newer signs.

I don't know.  This I-40 shield looks OK compared to the older I-15.  There are some horrid looking 3-digit interstate shields on signs in the field and as agentsteel53 stated, there's a bunch of awful looking triangular 2-digit interstate shields used as reassurance markers in existence too.  I'm hoping there aren't many left as I have started to see some newer 2-digit interstate shields that look like my avatar starting to pop up around California over the last couple of years.

@Agentsteel53: There's nothing wrong with either the older I-15 and the newer I-40 shields on the sign.  The guy I was replying to said he hates the Interstate shields used on the newer signs.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

agentsteel53

what's wrong with the 15?  Both look fine to me.  Standard shape, margins, etc.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

architect77

The California landscape is so stunningly beautiful and its "control cities" so relevant in America's "story" that I consider every single delapidated sign to be a priceless work of art......

burgess87

The lagrest diagrammatic sign I've ever seen is right in my neck of the woods, at the IH 90 / 190 interchange in southeast Buffalo:



Of course, IH 190 is no longer a toll road.  :P

SSOWorld

You sure it is no longer a toll road?  I see on a Rand McNally 2010 atlas that a booth exist just off that interchange.</off topic>
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

Snappyjack

That's an oversight of the map people then. Tolls were removed around 2006 from that stretch of I-190. However, tolls still so exist on the Grand Island bridges further north. There have been discussions in the past about taking those away too.

vdeane

Why does the Thruway have a diagrammic sign there anyways?  There's no reason for it!  It's just big and ugly.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

burgess87

Yet another waste of money from the NYSTA . . .  :banghead:

citrus

I saw 3 California diagrammatic signs this weekend:
15/215 north split
10/60 west split
end of 62 splitting into 10 east/west

BigMattFromTexas


Ian

UMaine graduate, former PennDOT employee, new SoCal resident.
Youtube l Flickr

UptownRoadGeek

Anyone have a picture of the old button copy diagrammatic in Dallas with the blue reflectors? I think it was in the Mixmaster.

Sykotyk

I've seen them in the U.S. and hate them. Mostly because they're usually poorly signed, and it's not common here, so even with proper signage there's no guarantee that people will use it right.

Sykotyk



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