I-95 Delaware River Scudder Falls bridge replacement (toll?)

[vdeane]

Just because it's on the test doesn't mean people actually bother to look at the signs when following GPS.  Heck, people have driven into lakes before!

[PHLBOS]

Heck, people have driven into lakes before!

And whose fault is that?

[jeffandnicole]

Just because it's on the test doesn't mean people actually bother to look at the signs when following GPS.  Heck, people have driven into lakes before!

Not even GPS.  The signs on a test are very basic stuff...what do you do at a red, 8 sided sign with STOP written on it?  Or, what do you do when you see an advisory speed sign?  Road tests aren't asking potential drivers to review 200 different signs and writing the meaning for each.

Go back to the days before GPS (which honestly wasn't all that long ago).  People still drove into lakes.  People still drove the wrong way down one way roads.  People still got lost.  Why?  Because their *written* directions were wrong, or a closed road sent people on unknown paths. Why didn't we hear about it?  Because the internet wasn't really around; Facebook wasn't around to quickly share such news stories, and the local news tended to focus on local news, not the latest Twitter uproar.

[PHLBOS]

The signs on a test are very basic stuff...what do you do at a red, 8 sided sign with STOP written on it?  Or, what do you do when you see an advisory speed sign?  Road tests aren't asking potential drivers to review 200 different signs and writing the meaning for each.

Yes and no.  Will a test consist of 200 signs to review?  No.  However, how much emphasis/percentage of a driver's test is traffic sign-based can vary from state to state.  When I changed my driver's license from MA to PA back in 1991; at least 75% of the test questions back then were sign-based.  Much more than when I was first going for my license in MA back in 1982.

Go back to the days before GPS (which honestly wasn't all that long ago).  People still drove into lakes.  People still drove the wrong way down one way roads.  People still got lost.  Why?  Because their *written* directions were wrong, or a closed road sent people on unknown paths. Why didn't we hear about it?  Because the internet wasn't really around; Facebook wasn't around to quickly share such news stories, and the local news tended to focus on local news, not the latest Twitter uproar.

You forgot, poorly-placed and/or worded signs as well as operating under the influence of alcohol or drugs; the latter being a more likely reason for why someone would unintentionally drive into a lake back then.

Let's not kid ourselves that such could have been contributory causes for many of the above-described mishaps especially pre-GPS.

Could one make similar mistakes by reading a vague road map?  Sure, but unlike the commonly mistaken GPS makes signs obsolete notion; maps were never intended to replace or be a substitute for road/traffic signs.

[bzakharin]

As I've posted before, at least my GPS often reads verbatim what's on the exit sign I should be taking, so I can be sure I'm taking the right exit. Same with street names when making a turn. So signs are far from useless.

[roadman65]

... the GPS is become God

Feel free to read my signature below.

Also & contrary to popular belief; signs & route numbers STILL have relevance... signs in particular.

These examples (two of them from Australia) come to mind.






Here's one that uses a route number in its message:


VMS example in Wrentham, MA near the Outlet stores:


Additionally & last time I checked, most if not all driver's tests include identifying traffic signs and what each one represents/stands for.

Yes but to many folks it is, just like their favorite movie actor and stuff is the way because they see others do it. Remember the old saying "Monkey see, monkey do" or "Monkey see, monkey does?"  That is what s going on these days.  Many folks argue because each one sees many doing different things but each one considers the norm to what their crowd sees or does.

That is why you ask a Leftist why he hates the right and most will say "Everybody I know and see hates the right and Faux is reporting non factual info'  They must because I know nobody who likes Trump in my everyday routine.  Then ditto with the Right saying "I know the Right is right, because everyone I see hates the left and CNN is fake news."

We believe what we hear and see despite we do not see and hear everything.  The same with the phones as we buy a phone that everyone else has and so must we. 

Sad to say most people think the GPS is the only way to navigate in the world because they either forgot what is was like before or with the millennials they never saw how we existed before the Waze and Google apps.

[PHLBOS]

Sad to say most people think the GPS is the only way to navigate in the world because they either forgot what is was like before or with the millennials they never saw how we existed before the Waze and Google apps.

From the various GPS mishap stories I've heard over the years, including a bus that struck a low overpass in Boston the along overheight-vehicle-restricted Soldiers Field Road circa 2013 injuring 35 passengers (one then-teenager's been a quadriplegic since), most if not all of the offenders were old enough to have gotten their licenses years if not decades before GPS became widely used.  In short & of all people, they should've known better.

That said, the fore-mentioned Monkey See/monkey do mindset is NOT a reason/excuse for the dismissal of and/or no longer erecting signs.
___________________________________________

Back to the topic at hand

The PA-bound tolls for the new Scudder Falls Bridge goes in effect today.
One of the new Scudder Falls Bridge spans opened today.  The PA-bound tolls will go in effect this Sunday July 14.

[vdeane]

The point wasn't to say that signs are no longer needed.  It was that putting them there will not force people who think they can ignore them due to GPS to read them.

[roadman65]

That is it there is no common sense in the world today and people are ignorant to the point of knowing things that were damned well taught to them in grade school and even some to the point of being disciplined for as well.

Wilfrid a former coworker got reprimanded for a mistake he made by our boss, but months later forgot all about it and committed the same infraction again.  When I confronted him to say it was wrong he acted like he did not know it was wrong, and furthermore when I reminded him that Patrick (our boss at the time) chewed him out big, he did not remember it at all!

Yet it happens even here.  Look at some of the trolls on here that get even banned then come back days later and act like they never were banned.  I won't say names but we all know one user on here that gets a free pass for being rude and insulting especially to new members whom he never met before on here and in real life!  The rest of us would get punched out if we behaved like this one person, but this guy has the grace of Heaven protecting him from harm and the same goes with drivers.  Some commit mistakes we all would get caught at or in a accident from paying out high insurance for these while many drivers go around their entire life without an incident and will go to the grave with no knowledge that they were living on the edge.

[roadman65]

Sad to say most people think the GPS is the only way to navigate in the world because they either forgot what is was like before or with the millennials they never saw how we existed before the Waze and Google apps.

From the various GPS mishap stories I've heard over the years, including a bus that struck a low overpass in Boston the along overheight-vehicle-restricted Soldiers Field Road circa 2013 injuring 35 passengers (one then-teenager's been a quadriplegic since), most if not all of the offenders were old enough to have gotten their licenses years if not decades before GPS became widely used.  In short & of all people, they should've known better.

That said, the fore-mentioned Monkey See/monkey do mindset is NOT a reason/excuse for the dismissal of and/or no longer erecting signs.
___________________________________________

Back to the topic at hand

The PA-bound tolls for the new Scudder Falls Bridge goes in effect today.

This is what I just responded to.

[PHLBOS]

This is what I just responded to.

And my earlier reply, that I'll admit derailed this thread further than it already went, was to your earlier "Signs and route numbers are becoming a thing of the past as the GPS is become God" comment.  While there, no doubt & sadly, are many that have that mindset; such is, again, not an excuse to no longer erect signs.

[mrsman]

I don't think the Garden State Parkway entrance signs are posted when a road randomly becomes an onramp. The case I can think of is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5611648,-74.3269491,3a,75y,97.01h,83.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjpZQe8tVq8U_YYvBevnDqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
No notice that Wood Ave becomes a Parkway onramp beyond this light.

As for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

The Turnpike Entrance signs at that point of Int 12 are not ambiguous at all. It's very clear that if you go straight ahead, you're getting on the Turnpike. They have also put up various other signs on the driftway indicating that you turned left to get on the Turnpike. They replaced that sign, but not the green on white overhead on Roosevelt Ave, which would have been useful to be replaced with a properly MUTCD compliant sign (there's also the unique 6__ shields here for the Industrial Hwy since I guess the NJTA assumed it was going to be a county route, but Middlesex County was perfectly content to leave it in Carteret's hands).

The fact that Wood Ave just turns into a Parkway ramp with little warning. Eh, that's not great. At least needs a few "no trucks beyond this point" signs by the APA driveway.

The Wood Ave example is exactly the circumstance that should be given warning.  Especially becasue there are truck restrictions.  [At least this part of the Pkwy is toll-free, but that would be another reason to warn of the entrance.]

People driving around looking for gas stations should not be suddenly onto a freeway without warning.  The fact that trucks are actually turning around there shows that there is a problem that signage could fix.

[Zeffy]

Before the bridge becomes tolled and I alter my route home I was able to drive over the new span. Here's a video of it. They did a good job overall.

[roadman65]

This is what I just responded to.

And my earlier reply, that I'll admit derailed this thread further than it already went, was to your earlier "Signs and route numbers are becoming a thing of the past as the GPS is become God" comment.  While there, no doubt & sadly, are many that have that mindset; such is, again, not an excuse to no longer erect signs.

No but the way people over trust the GPS seems to suggest they are a waste.  Me personally no and I don't think they are ever going to go away.

[Beltway]

I see that the project is moving along --

Replace the current congestion-prone, functionally obsolete Scudder Falls Bridge with a dual-span structure carrying six thru-traffic lanes (three in each direction) and three auxiliary lanes (two Pennsylvania to New Jersey bound, one New Jersey to Pennsylvania bound) for traffic merging onto and off the bridge and shoulders for breakdown/emergency access.

Widen the bridge's Pennsylvania I-295 approach, increasing the roadway to three lanes in each direction. Improve drainage and approach-roadway exit/entry transitions in New Jersey; both project components to be completed in 2021.
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/

Project Construction Start  Spring 2017
First span of new bridge open to traffic -- Opened overnight July 9, 2019
Start All-Electronic Tolling (PA-bound only)  -- July 14, 2019
Second span of new bridge open to traffic -- Late 2021
Estimated Project Completion -- Early 2022
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/update/

[jaip]

I commute to Mercer from Bucks. I can already see congestion relief while merging westbound from Nj29 route during evening commute compared to when old bridge was operating. Can't wait for project completion. It is worth paying Toll in my situation considering I have NJ EZ pass.

[roadman65]

What sucks about AET though is if you have a rental car as those daily usage fees are quite high!  I think I would drive up Route 29 and cross at the Washington Crossing Bridge, or drive down NJ 29 to Calhoun Street to avoid those fees if I have to drive a rental up there.

[PHLBOS]

What sucks about AET though is if you have a rental car as those daily usage fees are quite high!  I think I would drive up Route 29 and cross at the Washington Crossing Bridge, or drive down NJ 29 to Calhoun Street to avoid those fees if I have to drive a rental up there.

From what I've read/heard, that has probably been the #1 complaint regarding AET, regardless of where it's been implemented.

A couple of years ago when I did a r/t day-trip to BOS (PHL-BOS fares were significantly cheaper than PHL-PVD fares due to competition w/JetBlue on that route) in order to attend a college alumni function in Providence, RI; the rental car company offered use of an E-ZPass transponder for a flat $10 daily fee which was higher than the r/t E-ZPass toll of $3.50 for the Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90).  Could I have shunpiked the harbor crossing toll by taking back roads through East Boston & Chelsea to access MA 99?  Sure but since I was pressed for time for the trip down to RI; I didn't bother. 

On the way back to BOS & since I had plenty of time to catch my return light to PHL, I detoured along the Mass Pike Extension to make the usage of the rental's transponder worth my while.

IMHO, rather than going AET; it would've been better to simply have E-ZPass Express lanes with cash toll booths off to the right-hand side.  While such would require more real estate than AET gantries for new toll facilities; it would eliminate being forced to pay (shunpike routes may not be known/possible/practical) exorbitant AET-related transponder fees that many rental car companies are charging.  In non-AET situations, if one didn't want to use the rental car company-issued E-ZPass; one just simply paid the cash toll out of their own pocket and that was that.

[Beltway]

IMHO, rather than going AET; it would've been better to simply have E-ZPass Express lanes with cash toll booths off to the right-hand side.  While such would require more real estate than AET gantries for new toll facilities; it would eliminate being forced to pay (shunpike routes may not be known/possible/practical) exorbitant AET-related transponder fees that many rental car companies are charging.  In non-AET situations, if one didn't want to use the rental car company-issued E-ZPass; one just simply paid the cash toll out of their own pocket and that was that.

I think that advances in AET have too much going for it to continue building combo-tollplazas that have both ET and manual tolls.  That is a lot more construction compared to AET where it can be installed over the highway with a standard cross-section.

What about a long rental of say a week?  It is one thing to pay $10 a day for two days, but another for a whole week.

I wonder if there are any new proposals about how to solve this problem in an AET system.

[jeffandnicole]

What sucks about AET though is if you have a rental car as those daily usage fees are quite high!  I think I would drive up Route 29 and cross at the Washington Crossing Bridge, or drive down NJ 29 to Calhoun Street to avoid those fees if I have to drive a rental up there.

From what I've read/heard, that has probably been the #1 complaint regarding AET, regardless of where it's been implemented.

A couple of years ago when I did a r/t day-trip to BOS (PHL-BOS fares were significantly cheaper than PHL-PVD fares due to competition w/JetBlue on that route) in order to attend a college alumni function in Providence, RI; the rental car company offered use of an E-ZPass transponder for a flat $10 daily fee which was higher than the r/t E-ZPass toll of $3.50 for the Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90).  Could I have shunpiked the harbor crossing toll by taking back roads through East Boston & Chelsea to access MA 99?  Sure but since I was pressed for time for the trip down to RI; I didn't bother. 

On the way back to BOS & since I had plenty of time to catch my return light to PHL, I detoured along the Mass Pike Extension to make the usage of the rental's transponder worth my while.

IMHO, rather than going AET; it would've been better to simply have E-ZPass Express lanes with cash toll booths off to the right-hand side.  While such would require more real estate than AET gantries for new toll facilities; it would eliminate being forced to pay (shunpike routes may not be known/possible/practical) exorbitant AET-related transponder fees that many rental car companies are charging.  In non-AET situations, if one didn't want to use the rental car company-issued E-ZPass; one just simply paid the cash toll out of their own pocket and that was that.

Cash tolls are tremendously more expensive and dangerous than AET designs.  Along with the toll booths and real estate, you have a lot of personnel, buildings and equipment, signage, money security and transportation, auditing, etc.  And you can't just do one lane, because if people know that they can pay cash, then you'll have too high of a percentage of traffic wanting to pay cash for a single toll booth.  You also have to consider shift changeovers, equipment maintenance and breakdowns, and a host of other issues far behind what you and I see rolling down the highway.

This is why nearly every new toll point is going AET.  Just too expensive to continue with cash transactions.

It sucks when it comes to rental cars, not being familiar with the area, etc, but that's really an area that needs to be handled better by the transponder & rental companies.  To be fair, rental car companies charge a LOT in excess fees.  Obviously insurance is one pricey option that's not needed by many.  But also it's not uncommon for a GPS unit's rental fee for a 3 or 4 day rental to be pricier than just buying a new unit!  And in terms of rental vehicles compared to the overall volume of traffic, it's miniscule.

[roadman65]

I see the automation concept, despite my job being a toll collector, but yes rental car companies do charge way too much for the middle man they employ.  I do not mind paying a toll, except in DE and PA on their turnpikes as the mileage price is way too high, but when you have to pay a daily usage fee for using the toll road just once over a one week rental (7 days of tolls for only one day and one toll) that is absurd.  That is why in Houston I avoided the toll parts of TX SH Beltway 8 as Dollar Rental Car was going to add $12.50 for all my days of using the car even though I was in Houston for one whole day when I arrived.

[PHLBOS]

It sucks when it comes to rental cars, not being familiar with the area, etc, but that's really an area that needs to be handled better by the transponder & rental companies.  To be fair, rental car companies charge a LOT in excess fees.  Obviously insurance is one pricey option that's not needed by many.  But also it's not uncommon for a GPS unit's rental fee for a 3 or 4 day rental to be pricier than just buying a new unit!  And in terms of rental vehicles compared to the overall volume of traffic, it's miniscule.

IIRC, most of those listed fees can be easily avoided/declined; frequent-renters already know such.  Since most travelers now have/use smart phones; they'll just use the GPS or Google Maps on their phones rather than renting another unit.

Optional insurance that rental companies offer/charge: since the majority of transactions are done via a credit card, most credit card companies already offer some type of insurance for rental cars provided that their card is used for the transaction.  In short, such can be easily & should be declined.

With AET, the rented E-ZPass transponder is the proverbial wild-card here.  While some can say, bring your own transponder with you and add the rented vehicle upon pick-up; there are some issues w/such.

1. Such is additional item to add/carry when travelling (especially by air).

2. In most instances, one does not know the license plate number of the vehicle (let alone the year/make/model) they're renting until after they pick it up; and, in some instances, a vehicle swap may occur before leaving the lot.  Such happened to me one time when the car that was assigned to me had a just-expired out-of-state (VA in MA) license plate.  It wasn't noticed until the attendant at the gate (it was a rental lot at an airport) saw it prior to opening the exit gate for me.  I got a free upgrade to a larger car (Focus to an Impala) as a result of such.  All that drama plus the fact that one's travel may be pressed for time could mean that contacting one's E-ZPass agency to add/swap a rental vehicle on their account can be easily forgotten/overlooked.

3. Related to #2 above: Some agencies may not easily allow adding a temporary/rental vehicle onto one's existing transponder.  Such would be dependent upon the agency one's transponder is from.  See separate thread on that subject.

[jeffandnicole]

It sucks when it comes to rental cars, not being familiar with the area, etc, but that's really an area that needs to be handled better by the transponder & rental companies.  To be fair, rental car companies charge a LOT in excess fees.  Obviously insurance is one pricey option that's not needed by many.  But also it's not uncommon for a GPS unit's rental fee for a 3 or 4 day rental to be pricier than just buying a new unit!  And in terms of rental vehicles compared to the overall volume of traffic, it's miniscule.

IIRC, most of those listed fees can be easily avoided/declined; frequent-renters already know such.  Since most travelers now have/use smart phones; they'll just use the GPS or Google Maps on their phones rather than renting another unit.

Optional insurance that rental companies offer/charge: since the majority of transactions are done via a credit card, most credit card companies already offer some type of insurance for rental cars provided that their card is used for the transaction.  In short, such can be easily & should be declined.

With AET, the rented E-ZPass transponder is the proverbial wild-card here.  While some can say, bring your own transponder with you and add the rented vehicle upon pick-up; there are some issues w/such.

1. Such is additional item to add/carry when travelling (especially by air).

2. In most instances, one does not know the license plate number of the vehicle (let alone the year/make/model) they're renting until after they pick it up; and, in some instances, a vehicle swap may occur before leaving the lot.  Such happened to me one time when the car that was assigned to me had a just-expired out-of-state (VA in MA) license plate.  It wasn't noticed until the attendant at the gate (it was a rental lot at an airport) saw it prior to opening the exit gate for me.  I got a free upgrade to a larger car (Focus to an Impala) as a result of such.  All that drama plus the fact that one's travel may be pressed for time could mean that contacting one's E-ZPass agency to add/swap a rental vehicle on their account can be easily forgotten/overlooked.

3. Related to #2 above: Some agencies may not easily allow adding a temporary/rental vehicle onto one's existing transponder.  Such would be dependent upon the agency one's transponder is from.  See separate thread on that subject.

No need to add a rental license plate, and you shouldn't if you can't clearly define the time you'll have the rental.  Just use the EZ Pass as you normally would by holding it on the windshield in the same manner you would normally secure it to the windshield.  The tags are only checked if the system didn't pick up the toll transaction, and you can verify that it was charged by checking your account by the next day.

As far as GPS units go - people still use them - A lot - even though Waze and Google Maps are free to everyone with a smart phone (which is almost everyone).

None of the reasons presented are going to convince a toll agency to spend tens of millions to add cash booths.

[seicer]

A toll transponder is so tiny that it will fit in your checked luggage or carry-on. Also have driven rentals for years and have used my own Ohio and New York Thruway transponder with no problems. I don't get why it's such a big deal to a very few.

[vdeane]

No need to add a rental license plate, and you shouldn't if you can't clearly define the time you'll have the rental.  Just use the EZ Pass as you normally would by holding it on the windshield in the same manner you would normally secure it to the windshield.  The tags are only checked if the system didn't pick up the toll transaction, and you can verify that it was charged by checking your account by the next day.

As you mention, there's the risk of a blown read, and I imagine I'm not the only person who would rather not risk it.