Which states get roasted the most?

[1995hoo]

-New Jersey:  I'm not certain there is any way to drive out of the state without paying a toll.  You might as well hand over your wallet the second you enter, because it won't be long before they take your money.

There's a free bridge in Trenton as well as Phillpsburg crossing the Delaware. Both are pretty far out of the way though.

Oh yeah the Scudder Falls Bridge is free for the time being but will eventually be tolled.

Case in point.

There's 2 free bridges in Trenton for starters. 

If car drivers want to avoid the toll on US 1, they can take the Trenton Makes Bridge.  The detour is less than 1/4 mile in total, which is significantly less than "pretty far out of the way".  Timewise, add 2 minutes to the trip.

Dude, let it go. I never disputed–and am not disputing–that there are many people out there who think you have to pay a toll to exit New Jersey. (The number of people who think you're required to use the Turnpike route to drive between DC and New York makes it very easy to accept that they think you have to pay a toll to exit the state.) All I was saying was that I thought this particular poster on this particular forum was being snarky. I think you would surely agree that posters on this forum are, as a general matter, more likely to be well-informed about these types of things than members of the general public, right? That was all I was saying.

[webny99]

Rural PA is the heart of Appalachia, and is most certainly rugged terrain when compared to other states in the area (WV being the exception). Their highway network doesn't zigzag all over the place just for fun, the highways follows natural routes such as valleys, rivers, etc. Philly and Erie are not "rugged" per se, but that doesn't reflect the state as a whole.

Western Virginia and western North Carolina, in mountainous land area as well as the number of mountains over 4,000 feet high.  As much or more than PA and their tallest mountain is only about 3,200 feet high.

For the purposes of the discussion, North Carolina (and less so, western VA) are not in the area. I was comparing PA to the rest of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, and neither of those states are in those regions. FWIW, those two states as a whole are less rugged than PA.

All I'm saying is that most of PA has a lot of non-flat terrain to deal with that (sort of) gives them an excuse for some of the problems with their highway system.

[vdeane]

Plus I was talking centerline miles (which are my default).  Look at a map in TravelMapping and it's a spider web over hills and mountains.  Don't know where the "tallest mountain" obsession comes from.  NY's tallest mountain is four miles from the nearest road, and seven from the nearest state route.  And Rochester, Buffalo, parts of Syracuse, the Utica/Rome area, Lower Hudson Valley, NYC/Long Island, and the North Country are pretty damn flat.  Certainly flatter than PA, at least.  Central/Southern NJ, DE, much of MD, and OH are also VERY flat compared to PA.  Southeastern PA and the Erie area just don't strike me as representative of the state.  The areas south of NY's Southern Tier and central PA do.

[kkt]

Rural PA is the heart of Appalachia, and is most certainly rugged terrain when compared to other states in the area (WV being the exception). Their highway network doesn't zigzag all over the place just for fun, the highways follows natural routes such as valleys, rivers, etc. Philly and Erie are not "rugged" per se, but that doesn't reflect the state as a whole.

Western Virginia and western North Carolina, in mountainous land area as well as the number of mountains over 4,000 feet high.  As much or more than PA and their tallest mountain is only about 3,200 feet high.

For the purposes of the discussion, North Carolina (and less so, western VA) are not in the area. I was comparing PA to the rest of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, and neither of those states are in those regions. FWIW, those two states as a whole are less rugged than PA.

All I'm saying is that most of PA has a lot of non-flat terrain to deal with that (sort of) gives them an excuse for some of the problems with their highway system.

Elevation doesn't necessarily translate to rough terrain where roads are.  Nevada, for instance, has several mountain peaks above 11,000 feet, and is on a plateau where most of the elevations in the flat areas are around 4000 to 5000 feet.  But they put almost all of the state roads along easy grades around the mountains instead of over.  The terrain is such that it's possible to go around most of the mountains and still get to where they need to go.  Pennsylvania isn't that lucky, they have to cross mountain ranges to connect parts of the state.

[webny99]

Plus I was talking centerline miles (which are my default).  Look at a map in TravelMapping and it's a spider web over hills and mountains.  Don't know where the "tallest mountain" obsession comes from.  NY's tallest mountain is four miles from the nearest road, and seven from the nearest state route.  And Rochester, Buffalo, parts of Syracuse, the Utica/Rome area, Lower Hudson Valley, NYC/Long Island, and the North Country are pretty damn flat.  Certainly flatter than PA, at least.  Central/Southern NJ, DE, much of MD, and OH are also VERY flat compared to PA.  Southeastern PA and the Erie area just don't strike me as representative of the state.  The areas south of NY's Southern Tier and central PA do.

Having been between Corning and Baltimore many times, I totally agree. PA seems more rocky, too, compared to what we see in NY (where hills are generally gradual and rolling). Erie is definitely an exception, being that it is very flat and the only PA county that borders one of the Great Lakes.

It's somewhat a matter of perspective, too. While we may call the Finger Lakes flat, they're basically Rocky Mountain-level stuff to my friends and family from the Midwest 

[Beltway]

Rural PA is the heart of Appalachia, and is most certainly rugged terrain when compared to other states in the area (WV being the exception). Their highway network doesn't zigzag all over the place just for fun, the highways follows natural routes such as valleys, rivers, etc. Philly and Erie are not "rugged" per se, but that doesn't reflect the state as a whole.

Western Virginia and western North Carolina, in mountainous land area as well as the number of mountains over 4,000 feet high.  As much or more than PA and their tallest mountain is only about 3,200 feet high.

For the purposes of the discussion, North Carolina (and less so, western VA) are not in the area. I was comparing PA to the rest of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, and neither of those states are in those regions. FWIW, those two states as a whole are less rugged than PA.
All I'm saying is that most of PA has a lot of non-flat terrain to deal with that (sort of) gives them an excuse for some of the problems with their highway system.

I heard some of the same excuses back when I worked at PennDOT in the 1970s, that is what I find to be annoying.

VA and NC are indeed Mid-Atlantic states, and they have large areas of mountainous terrain that are much more mountainous than those areas in PA.  Those areas also have snowfall levels and winter temperature profiles similar to those in the northeast.

Coastal areas have their own set of highway challenges, and these tend to be very expensive, such as dealing with wetlands and dealing with the need to build major bridges and tunnels across major shipping channels.  NY, NJ, MD, VA and NC has lots of those challenges.  PA's only bridges in that class are shared with NJ in interstate compact authorities.

Also, look up the dictionary definition of "rugged".  It is being used inappropriately here.

[jeffandnicole]

-New Jersey:  I'm not certain there is any way to drive out of the state without paying a toll.  You might as well hand over your wallet the second you enter, because it won't be long before they take your money.

There's a free bridge in Trenton as well as Phillpsburg crossing the Delaware. Both are pretty far out of the way though.

Oh yeah the Scudder Falls Bridge is free for the time being but will eventually be tolled.

Case in point.

There's 2 free bridges in Trenton for starters. 

If car drivers want to avoid the toll on US 1, they can take the Trenton Makes Bridge.  The detour is less than 1/4 mile in total, which is significantly less than "pretty far out of the way".  Timewise, add 2 minutes to the trip.

Dude, let it go. I never disputed—and am not disputing—that there are many people out there who think you have to pay a toll to exit New Jersey. (The number of people who think you're required to use the Turnpike route to drive between DC and New York makes it very easy to accept that they think you have to pay a toll to exit the state.) All I was saying was that I thought this particular poster on this particular forum was being snarky. I think you would surely agree that posters on this forum are, as a general matter, more likely to be well-informed about these types of things than members of the general public, right? That was all I was saying.

Huh?  I'm not even arguing with you over this here.  And as far as posters on this forum are more likely to be well-informed, I was replying to a poster that was incorrect!!!

[ekt8750]

-New Jersey:  I'm not certain there is any way to drive out of the state without paying a toll.  You might as well hand over your wallet the second you enter, because it won't be long before they take your money.

There's a free bridge in Trenton as well as Phillpsburg crossing the Delaware. Both are pretty far out of the way though.

Oh yeah the Scudder Falls Bridge is free for the time being but will eventually be tolled.

Case in point.

There's 2 free bridges in Trenton for starters. 

If car drivers want to avoid the toll on US 1, they can take the Trenton Makes Bridge.  The detour is less than 1/4 mile in total, which is significantly less than "pretty far out of the way".  Timewise, add 2 minutes to the trip.

By out of the way I was more referring to the I-95/I-295/NJTP corridor than Trenton proper.

[formulanone]

To an outsider, it seems a bit of a joke that you will very likely pay a toll to leave New Jersey. Compared to every other state, no other state or region has so many toll roads/bridges leading out from it. Literally three bordering states charge a one-way toll from New Jersey. Nowhere else do we see that. That means...we can make a humorous assumption about that situation, because...why not?

- Jokes are not always 100% accurate
- Humor plays on a form of ignorance, or it usually wouldn't get a reaction
- A "roast" is when there are jokes, usually when subject of the joke can't defend itself
- Holy crap, we are still talking about this?
- Pork roll?

[1995hoo]

-New Jersey:  I'm not certain there is any way to drive out of the state without paying a toll.  You might as well hand over your wallet the second you enter, because it won't be long before they take your money.

There's a free bridge in Trenton as well as Phillpsburg crossing the Delaware. Both are pretty far out of the way though.

Oh yeah the Scudder Falls Bridge is free for the time being but will eventually be tolled.

Case in point.

There's 2 free bridges in Trenton for starters. 

If car drivers want to avoid the toll on US 1, they can take the Trenton Makes Bridge.  The detour is less than 1/4 mile in total, which is significantly less than "pretty far out of the way".  Timewise, add 2 minutes to the trip.

Dude, let it go. I never disputed—and am not disputing—that there are many people out there who think you have to pay a toll to exit New Jersey. (The number of people who think you're required to use the Turnpike route to drive between DC and New York makes it very easy to accept that they think you have to pay a toll to exit the state.) All I was saying was that I thought this particular poster on this particular forum was being snarky. I think you would surely agree that posters on this forum are, as a general matter, more likely to be well-informed about these types of things than members of the general public, right? That was all I was saying.

Huh?  I'm not even arguing with you over this here.  And as far as posters on this forum are more likely to be well-informed, I was replying to a poster that was incorrect!!!

I thought you were making this comment to underscore your prior remarks, earlier in this thread, directed to me about how there are people out there who think you can't exit New Jersey without paying a toll. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[kphoger]

-New Jersey:  I'm not certain there is any way to drive out of the state without paying a toll.  You might as well hand over your wallet the second you enter, because it won't be long before they take your money.

There's a free bridge in Trenton as well as Phillpsburg crossing the Delaware. Both are pretty far out of the way though.

Oh yeah the Scudder Falls Bridge is free for the time being but will eventually be tolled.

Case in point.

There's 2 free bridges in Trenton for starters. 

If car drivers want to avoid the toll on US 1, they can take the Trenton Makes Bridge.  The detour is less than 1/4 mile in total, which is significantly less than "pretty far out of the way".  Timewise, add 2 minutes to the trip.

I count eight free bridges across the state line just between I-95 and I-80, in fact.

Washington Crossing
Lambertville
Stockton
Frenchtown
Milford
Riegelsville
Phillipsburg
Belvidere

[webny99]

Also, look up the dictionary definition of "rugged".  It is being used inappropriately here.

Rocky, jagged, irregular, uneven (not so much "broken") most definitely describe the terrain of much of PA; as I mentioned before, the US 15 and US 219 corridors come to mind.

Anyways, I'm done nitpicking. What you're trying to prove, I'm not sure. If there's a larger point you're making than "PA is not rugged" I'll consider that on it's own terms.

[Beltway]

Also, look up the dictionary definition of "rugged".  It is being used inappropriately here.

Rocky, jagged, irregular, uneven (not so much "broken") most definitely describe the terrain of much of PA; as I mentioned before, the US 15 and US 219 corridors come to mind.

No, definitely not, and I already looked up that definition.  Even most coastal areas have rocky soil within a few feet of the surface.  Most of PA is not "jagged" or "irregular".  Stop making excuses.

[webny99]

There seems to be a correlation between the volume of users from a state and the amount of roasting it receives.

States like North Dakota and New Mexico don't get roasted very often, but I'm not sure if we even have anyone to represent those states. Predominantly rural states also have less lane miles/signage/etc. to deal with. But it's still possible for DOT's to botch it up even the smallest of responsibilities (Oklahoma, looking at you ).

[hotdogPi]

There seems to be a correlation between the volume of users from a state and the amount of roasting it receives.

States like North Dakota and New Mexico don't get roasted very often, but I'm not sure if we even have anyone to represent those states. Predominantly rural states also have less lane miles/signage/etc. to deal with. But it's still possible for DOT's to botch it up even the smallest of responsibilities (Oklahoma, looking at you ).

New Mexico is one of the worst for road quality.

[US 89]

There seems to be a correlation between the volume of users from a state and the amount of roasting it receives.

States like North Dakota and New Mexico don't get roasted very often, but I'm not sure if we even have anyone to represent those states. Predominantly rural states also have less lane miles/signage/etc. to deal with. But it's still possible for DOT's to botch it up even the smallest of responsibilities (Oklahoma, looking at you ).

New Mexico is one of the worst for road quality.

Can attest. US 491 crossing into NM is marked not by a sign (one does show up a mile later) but by a sudden change into one of the bumpiest highways I’ve ever been on. That goes for the entire length in NM.

[jeffandnicole]

-New Jersey:  I'm not certain there is any way to drive out of the state without paying a toll.  You might as well hand over your wallet the second you enter, because it won't be long before they take your money.

There's a free bridge in Trenton as well as Phillpsburg crossing the Delaware. Both are pretty far out of the way though.

Oh yeah the Scudder Falls Bridge is free for the time being but will eventually be tolled.

Case in point.

There's 2 free bridges in Trenton for starters. 

If car drivers want to avoid the toll on US 1, they can take the Trenton Makes Bridge.  The detour is less than 1/4 mile in total, which is significantly less than "pretty far out of the way".  Timewise, add 2 minutes to the trip.

I count eight free bridges across the state line just between I-95 and I-80, in fact.

Washington Crossing
Lambertville
Stockton
Frenchtown
Milford
Riegelsville
Phillipsburg
Belvidere

Techncally the NJ/PA Turnpike bridge is free also. The toll roads on either side are tolled.

[kphoger]

Predominantly rural states also have less lane miles/signage/etc. to deal with.

This is not necessarily true.  As a general rule, (1) predominantly rural states are larger in area, meaning more lane miles; and (2) predominantly rural states have fewer people per square mile, meaning fewer people per lane mile, meaning less tax money per lane mile.  This doesn't necessarily happen in rugged areas like Wyoming (58k total road miles), but it's certainly true in farming areas like Kansas (286k total road miles).

How are you defining "predominantly rural," anyway?  Percentage of the population living in rural areas, or percentage of area being rural?

[hotdogPi]

How are you defining "predominantly rural," anyway?  Percentage of the population living in rural areas, or percentage of area being rural?

I have a spreadsheet that has every city in the top 1000 (about 38k+). If "urban" is referring to anyone living in any of these cities, the most urban states are:

1. California (72.88%)
2. Arizona (71.12%)
3. Colorado (58.19%)
4. Texas (56.56%)
5. Nevada (53.16%)
6. New York (50.75%)
7. Utah (50.45%)
8. Rhode Island (47.52%)
9. New Mexico (46.62%)
10. Kansas (46.43%)

Cities 100k+ only:

1. Arizona (58.24%)
2. California (48.48%)
3. Nevada (47.53%)
4. New York (46.38%)
5. Colorado (43.07%)
6. Nebraska (36.54%)
7. Texas (34.10%)
8. Kansas (33.47%)
9. Alaska (28.97%)
10. Tennessee (28.94%)

This way of doing it isn't perfect, as some many non-city areas, like towns, townships, and unincorporated areas, are not included in the list.

Note that 9 or 10 of the 13 states listed (all except CA, NY, RI, and possibly TN) would be considered rural by most people, and 10 of the 13 (all except NY, RI, and TN) have vast spaces of emptiness. Yet these are considered the most urban in the spreadsheet that I have compiled.

[webny99]

Predominantly rural states also have less lane miles/signage/etc. to deal with.

This is not necessarily true.  As a general rule, (1) predominantly rural states are larger in area, meaning more lane miles; and (2) predominantly rural states have fewer people per square mile, meaning fewer people per lane mile, meaning less tax money per lane mile.  This doesn't necessarily happen in rugged areas like Wyoming (58k total road miles), but it's certainly true in farming areas like Kansas (286k total road miles).

How are you defining "predominantly rural," anyway?  Percentage of the population living in rural areas, or percentage of area being rural?

Perhaps I should say predominantly rural states have less road miles per square mile. Rural areas may have a full square mile void of any roads whatsoever, whereas urban areas have higher road density (if that's a thing).
As far as my definition, lets go with percentage area, because percentage population tends to skewer things slightly (see quote from 1 above). For example, I think Arizona is a predominantly rural state. It has Phoenix, sure, but the state is a rural one by and large. The fact that many people there dont live in a rural area serves to reinforce how rural the bulk of the state really is.

[kphoger]

Total Road Miles:

[triplemultiplex]

I'm one of the few who applauds California and other western states for shit-canning US Routes once they became redundant.
And while sometimes their number choices leaves something to be desired, I like that North Carolina has been so proactive in adding interstates.  I wish more states could borrow NC's balls when it comes to seeking out these kind of promotions.
Texas should have at least a dozen more 3di's than it currently does, as an example.

[bzakharin]

To an outsider, it seems a bit of a joke that you will very likely pay a toll to leave New Jersey. Compared to every other state, no other state or region has so many toll roads/bridges leading out from it.

Ok, so Delaware requiring tolls to get *into* it is ok? Seriously, New Jersey's state borders are largely along large rivers. Toll bridges/tunnels across large rivers are normal, aren't they? Maryland has multiple toll bridges over the Susquehanna too, as does New York across the Hudson. Those are within the state, by the way (NJ has some of those too, but not in any area most travelers go to, and always with nearby free alternatives).

[hotdogPi]

To an outsider, it seems a bit of a joke that you will very likely pay a toll to leave New Jersey. Compared to every other state, no other state or region has so many toll roads/bridges leading out from it.

Ok, so Delaware requiring tolls to get *into* it is ok? Seriously, New Jersey's state borders are largely along large rivers. Toll bridges/tunnels across large rivers are normal, aren't they? Maryland has multiple toll bridges over the Susquehanna too, as does New York across the Hudson. Those are within the state, by the way (NJ has some of those too, but not in any area most travelers go to, and always with nearby free alternatives).

Most Delaware River and Hudson River bridges are tolled one direction only. Entering New Jersey is much less likely to require a toll.

[webny99]

Total Road Miles:
[image snipped]

That doesn't factor in state size, so, while interesting, it's not really relevant to the point I'm making. Looking at roads per square mile sheds a different light on the picture.

I won't argue that rural states have it easy, but I will argue that they don't get a lot of criticism on this forum. I will also say that urbanized areas are, by nature, harder to deal with when it comes to basically every road-related aspect I can think of.