Kickapoo Turnpike

[kphoger]

I'm not 100% sure about that. 85 works on TX-130 because it was built with a speed limit that high in mind, and the 85-mph segments are pretty sparsely traveled. The Turner doesn't have the sight lines to support a speed limit that high, and is pretty busy for most of its length.

My opinion is that 85 mph barely even works on TX-130 based on the curves and undulating roadbed that exist along its length.  Granted, I drove it with a heavy-laden vehicle, but 85 was pushing my comfort limit.  And this is from a guy whose straight-line preferred cruising speed would be about 85-90 mph.

[sprjus4]

The few times I've driven SH-130, I usually keep it around 87 - 88 mph and have never had any issues with the curves.

[kphoger]

The few times I've driven SH-130, I usually keep it around 87 - 88 mph and have never had any issues with the curves.

Yeah, I suspect that, if I hadn't been driving an overloaded van full of people, then the undulations and curves wouldn't have been as unsettling to me.

I honestly think other highways are more doable at 85-90 mph than is TX-130.  For example, in the same general area:  I-35 between Devine and Botines, with a few reduced speed zones around Pearsall and Dilley and Cotulla.

[sprjus4]

Most of I-37 could be at least 80 mph, similar to most of I-10 in west Texas and a portion of I-20.

[US 89]

I don't think we'll see any more 85 mph limits across the country aside from maybe another TX-130 situation where you've got a high quality, rural road with low traffic counts.

My experience with 80 mph limits on rural western interstates is that they're actually followed pretty well - at least within 5 mph. Depending on what state I'm in, I will typically set cruise control to 80-83 mph, which is good enough to pass about 70-75% of other traffic on the road. Seeing how actual speeds barely changed on most roads that went from 75 to 80, I don't think an 80-to-85 change would have any real effect other than to make police wait a few more mph before pulling someone over.

I'm not a fan of driving more than 85 mph anyway outside of passing someone on a 2-lane - that's where I start to notice a substantial decrease in gas mileage.

[kphoger]

I don't think we'll see any more 85 mph limits across the country aside from maybe another TX-130 situation where you've got a high quality, rural road with low traffic counts.

Let's not forget, either, that the 85mph limit on TX-130 wasn't TxDOT's idea to begin with.

[Plutonic Panda]

US-85, I was just about to mention fuel economy as a big factor in many not option to go as fast. Good point that will keep many in line with 80 MPH speed limits which really should become the norm across the country.

[skluth]

The speed limit topic seems to have highjacked this thread. Please start a new thread if you'd like to discuss speed limits across the country.

[The Ghostbuster]

If anyone drives along the Kickapoo Turnpike in the near future, be sure to take plenty of pictures. I also want to know if the Turnpike's exits have numbers on them.

[rte66man]

If anyone drives along the Kickapoo Turnpike in the near future, be sure to take plenty of pictures. I also want to know if the Turnpike's exits have numbers on them.

Planning on going out there either tomorrow or Saturday.

[Bobby5280]

Which is absolutely wild, since McDonald Road appears to be a privately-maintained gravel street lined with residences. What OTA was thinking lining up the ROW to this, I don't know.

It is possible the Southern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike could be a temporary thing? I wonder if there are long term plans to extend the turnpike farther South and then West over to the Norman area.

IMHO, I don't see much value in the initial leg of the Kickapoo Turnpike, at least not for my driving purposes going from Lawton to Tulsa and farther Northeast. I'll probably just keep using I-44. Now if the turnpike was extended farther South and then West over to Norman and then connected to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension then that would work as a functional bypass around Oklahoma City. Unfortunately there are significant gaps to fill. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension needs to be extended to I-35. I'm not sure how to get the Kickapoo Turnpike connected into I-35 in Norman. At first glance OK-9 would be an obvious choice, but I think the ROW is too narrow and there's too many homes built right next to the ROW limits.

[Scott5114]

I think the long-term goal is to get it to at least intersect with SH-9. I don't know if there are any concrete plans, because an expansion will probably require a new bond measure, and that won't be possible until this one is paid down a little. Having it terminate where it does is kind of a problem because there's basically no way to extend it south without plowing over that entire quasi-subdivision.

I know ODOT's long term plan is to expand SH-9 to four lanes through all of Cleveland County, but I don't think there's any plans for it to be controlled-access. The most recently-expanded section didn't even get a median. SH-9 really should be controlled access to at least US-77, but there's zero movement toward that that I know of. Either way, I doubt OTA would get involved with SH-9; they'd probably just leave a T intersection there and leave it to ODOT to do any upgrades to the west. Maybe they could loop it south of Noble and connect to I-35 between Goldsby and Purcell, but that's probably just fantasy.

[okc1]

Sure wish OTA could include planned widenings and new construction on the ODOT 8-year plan. It would have reduced the ill-will of those displaced by or near the Kickapoo.

[Bobby5280]

I know ODOT's long term plan is to expand SH-9 to four lanes through all of Cleveland County, but I don't think there's any plans for it to be controlled-access. The most recently-expanded section didn't even get a median. SH-9 really should be controlled access to at least US-77, but there's zero movement toward that that I know of. Either way, I doubt OTA would get involved with SH-9; they'd probably just leave a T intersection there and leave it to ODOT to do any upgrades to the west. Maybe they could loop it south of Noble and connect to I-35 between Goldsby and Purcell, but that's probably just fantasy.

There appears to be a somewhat development-free gap between the South edge of Norman and Noble. It might be possible to thread a new turnpike extension through there to get to I-35.

Another possibility is ODOT upgrading OK-9 to controlled access from Jenkins Ave to the East. OK-9 has more space there and US-77 already has a freeway style exit too. What they can do is make a new freeway split dove-tail off OK-9 skirting between the sewage treatment plant as asphalt division facility. The biggest inconvenience would be having to build a new Canadian River bridge crossing. Plus, that route would probably require an elevated crossing over Bratcher Miner Road (going between the sewage and asphalt plants). You can't build an elevated freeway structure along OK-9 all the way to I-35 due to all the homes on the edge of the highway. But I don't think anyone would complain about an elevated freeway going over sewage and industrial facilities.

I still think it's possible to convert OK-9 into a freeway in front of Riverwind Casino. It would be a tight squeeze. But I think the businesses along the road are on set backs far enough to allow for a 4 lane or even 6 lane freeway closely flanked by frontage roads. The drainage ditches would have to be covered up and buried. But ultimately I think a freeway upgrade would attract more vehicles to those businesses, particularly the casino.

[Stephane Dumas]

Which is absolutely wild, since McDonald Road appears to be a privately-maintained gravel street lined with residences. What OTA was thinking lining up the ROW to this, I don't know.

It is possible the Southern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike could be a temporary thing? I wonder if there are long term plans to extend the turnpike farther South and then West over to the Norman area.

IMHO, I don't see much value in the initial leg of the Kickapoo Turnpike, at least not for my driving purposes going from Lawton to Tulsa and farther Northeast. I'll probably just keep using I-44. Now if the turnpike was extended farther South and then West over to Norman and then connected to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension then that would work as a functional bypass around Oklahoma City. Unfortunately there are significant gaps to fill. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension needs to be extended to I-35. I'm not sure how to get the Kickapoo Turnpike connected into I-35 in Norman. At first glance OK-9 would be an obvious choice, but I think the ROW is too narrow and there's too many homes built right next to the ROW limits.

That would go into fictionnal territory here, but how about a east-west freeway bypass of Norman for OK-9? "Freewaylizing" the current gap in Norman will awake lots of NIMBYS.

[Bobby5280]

That would go into fictionnal territory here, but how about a east-west freeway bypass of Norman for OK-9? "Freewaylizing" the current gap in Norman will awake lots of NIMBYS.

It's impossible to do a straight freeway upgrade of OK-9 along its existing path to I-35. Too much property would have to be taken. Or a bunch of it would have to be elevated, which would also be a non-starter. The easiest scenario is shooting one of the gaps between Norman and Noble and connecting to I-35 about a mile South of the OK-74 exit in Goldsby. That would be a couple or so miles South of Riverwind Casino. For good measure maybe keep the turnpike extension going West past I-35 and then shift upward to meet the H.E. Bailey turnpike extension where it ends at US-62. That would be one way to handle the gap the H.E. Bailey extension has between I-35, although I would still prefer OK-9 to be upgraded along its current ROW in that case.

[Scott5114]

That would go into fictionnal territory here, but how about a east-west freeway bypass of Norman for OK-9? "Freewaylizing" the current gap in Norman will awake lots of NIMBYS.

I don't see how any opposition could possibly be taken seriously–everyone who lives alongside SH-9 has to deal with it. It is the quick way to access pretty much the whole east half of town from I-35. Nobody is happy with it as it is, and people who move to the west side often say things like "Yeah, it's more expensive, but now I don't have to deal with Highway 9." Norman may be liberal, but we have pretty much no anti-highway sentiment here.

The big political divide in Norman is east side versus west side. Those of us on the east side often feel like the west side gets all the nice stuff because it's higher-income, and the east side is kind of left to rot. The city does a good job of taking care of the east side in terms of infrastructure and such, but any time a new business comes to town, they build on the west side first, and then we only get an east-side location if the west side one gets too busy. And of course, the west side has I-35 linking it to Oklahoma City, while the east side only has SH-77H. So transportation linking east and west is an important issue for east siders.

You would only have to take property between I-35 and US-77 at the interchanges, which is doable. Some of the property that would be involved is owned by OU or the City of Norman. A freeway that hooks into I-35 south of SH-74 would do basically nothing to improve traffic on SH-9, since most people on SH-9 have destinations in Norman itself, not east of it.

[Bobby5280]

I think it would be better if a Kickapoo Turnpike extension was able to terminate at OK-9 and have OK-9 upgraded into a limited access freeway through the South side of Norman the rest of the way to I-35. I think it would be the most beneficial concept. It would provide faster access from I-35 to the Lloyd Noble Center, the National Weather Center and parts of the OU campus.

The divided OK-9 highway going between I-35 and US-77 is almost the same size as a 4-lane freeway. The big problem is fitting in exit ramps.

The SW 24th Avenue intersection with OK-9, just East of the new OK-9/I-35 interchange is probably the toughest puzzle to solve. The Total Beverage Services building on the SW corner of the intersection would probably have to go. On the NE corner part of the Atwoods parking lot would get consumed. The Valero station and other properties on the NW corner would likely have to be removed as well. On top of that, some serious flyover ramps would probably be needed to overcome severe weaving issues from a freeway to freeway connection being so close to multiple exit/entrance ramps to other surface streets.

One other thing that could be done to the SW 24th Ave intersection with OK-9: remove the intersection. Just bridge SW 24th Avenue over OK-9. I'm sure residents near that intersection would probably not like that very much. But that would be the cheapest, easiest solution.

Next problems: the signaled intersections along OK-9 at McGee Drive, West Imhoff Road, South Berry Road and Chautauqua Avenue. Perhaps if the main lanes of OK-9 were completely rebuilt with the opposing roadways butted against each other, separated by a concrete Jersey barrier, there might be barely enough room to squeeze in slip ramps. The signal at South Berry Road is very close to the Imhoff Road intersection. That might make it necessary to eliminate the S Berry outlet onto OK-9. It's either that or ODOT would have to build braided slip ramps. Braided ramps require a good bit more ROW.

I think there is enough space at the OK-9/Jenkins Ave intersection for a freeway exit. West of Chautauqua Ave OK-9 may have enough space for frontage roads to maintain outlets for streets like Marshall Avenue. The frontage roads could end at an exit for 12th Ave SE shortly before OK-9 reaches the US-77 exit.

The intersection of OK-9 and 24th Ave SE could be tricky. Cross Pointe Church sits at the SE corner. There might be enough room for some slip ramps and/or frontage roads there if the church is willing to let the highway eat a little of its front yard.

[Scott5114]

You can definitely save some property taking if you're smart about where you build the interchanges. Both McGee and Berry indirectly connect to Imhoff, so you can put an interchange there and an overpass at McGee and serve all three streets. Likewise, Chautauqua and Jenkins are close enough and interconnected enough you can put one interchange in there. 24th E can be done with a parclo with the ramps in the vacant quadrants. and not affect the church at all. The trickiest ones to solve are 24th W and 12th E.

[Plutonic Panda]

[SoonerCowboy]

I tried out the southern portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike on Saturday. It only has one lane open, at 45 mph. Not the smoothest ride I must say. I think the may have opened it too soon. Anyone else drive it yet? Thoughts?

[rte66man]

I tried out the southern portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike on Saturday. It only has one lane open, at 45 mph. Not the smoothest ride I must say. I think the may have opened it too soon. Anyone else drive it yet? Thoughts?

Co-worker drove it and had the same comments as you did. Going to try to drive it this weekend and grab some pics.

[SoonerCowboy]

I tried out the southern portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike on Saturday. It only has one lane open, at 45 mph. Not the smoothest ride I must say. I think the may have opened it too soon. Anyone else drive it yet? Thoughts?

Co-worker drove it and had the same comments as you did. Going to try to drive it this weekend and grab some pics.

Cannot wait to see them!!!! I drove it at night last night (from 23rd to I-40). Lighting seems nice, around the off/on ramps. Had it to myself for the most part, only 3 cars were heading northbound.

[Scott5114]

Co-worker drove it and had the same comments as you did. Going to try to drive it this weekend and grab some pics.

Sorry to steal your thunder.


All pictures northbound and licensed CC-BY-SA 4.0, since I uploaded them to Commons.


"You know what, Jim? The name of this road is so long nobody's gonna be able to read it from the little marker there."
"yeah so what"
"Well, maybe we should do that thing they do with every other road in the country, and give it a number. 362 would make sense, and so would 340 or 344."
"mike, that's the dumbest thing you've ever said. just put the name of the road again on there, at the bottom or some shit, fuck, I dunno"
"Should I fix the arrow so it's using the correct one while I'm up there?"
"nah"
(Exit from I-40 EB.)


Blanked-out speed limit signs just north of I-40. The temporary speed limit is 45 MPH on the two-lane portions. Note that the final striping is not even done, and I encountered a few signs that were missing and had a VMS instead. Definitely a rush job to open.


Menu sign. No "St" or "Ave"? What is this, Wichita?


Assurance sign north of I-40.


Approaching the S.E. 29th Street exit. This is Exit 134, but there is no exit number on this particular sign.


Exit 134. Here, the sign grows both an exit tab and a control city. Remember that part of the MUTCD where you're not supposed to put a control city and a street name on the same sign? Good, because whoever drew up these signing plans didn't.


Exit 136 for Reno Avenue, which is again missing an exit tab for no apparent reason.


Exit 138 for US-62, NE 23rd Street. Also two control cities, separated by a slash, on a sign that carries a street name, meaning the second line of legend here manages to violate the MUTCD twice. Impressive. Also, that US-62 shield is tiny.


The Kickapoo Turnpike opens up to four lanes at US-62, and the speed limit rises to 80 MPH. It's hard to take pictures and drive at 80 MPH, so I stayed below that, but when I did speed up to 80 it felt like the road could handle it just fine.


Assurance shield north of US-62. Note that it is missing the yellow TOLL banner the other assurance shield had. I guess they figure at this point they don't want to scare you into bailing at Britton Road and missing out on the barrier toll.


Identification sign for the N.E. 36th Street overpass. A pleasant surprise, since this type of sign is incredibly rare in Oklahoma. Odd that it came from the agency that doesn't even sign county lines most of the time.


Milemarker 139.5. I guess OTA liked ODOT's enhanced markers and decided to install their own, although they didn't include the shield and direction that would make them truly "enhanced", which is probably fine since all of the turnpike markers would look identical at that size. They kind of remind me of ISTHA markers.


Last 2 exits menu. It looks like 3, but Jones is the control city for the Britton Road exit. This sign has spacing issues.


"Jim, I can't remember, are we supposed to use a slash or a line break to separate two different messages on the same sign?"
"I dunno, just put both"
"Is the text supposed to be left aligned, or centered?"
"no"


Mainline toll plaza north of exit 144.


It's over already? But we were having so much fun.


The split approaching I-44.


I didn't even know they still made those floppy green things.

It's a nice enough drive, and goes through some nice-looking (I wouldn't go so far as to say scenic) rural territory in eastern Oklahoma County...just close your eyes as you get close to the signs.

[I-55]

The only thing that could've made those signs more ugly would be if they were in clearview. Heck that might actually make them look better.

Also, I assume the reason for the mileage being in the 100s is to align with the Turner Tpk?