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Author Topic: DST (2018)  (Read 34995 times)

slorydn1

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #200 on: March 13, 2018, 12:50:06 AM »

As a child until about 10 years old I lived in the far western end of the Eastern Time Zone. From 10-21 years old I lived in the far eastern end of the Central Time Zone, and have spent the last 27+ years pretty far east in the Eastern Time Zone.

I have vague memories of almost 10 pm sunsets in western Michigan as a child, especially around the 4th of July waiting for the fireworks to start. I can remember vividly not wanting to go to bed (my parents wanted me in bed NLT 8:30 pm) because it was still daylight out. I can also remember it still being dark when I got to school during the winter, and again for a week or 2 after the time change, even though it was in still April back then.

I don't remember that being an issue during my teenage years in Chicagoland. School started at 8:25 in elementary school, 9am in junior high (that was a private school that utilized the public school system's buses so they had to start later) and 8:45 in high school (private school in downtown Chicago). I did have a dark ride to get to school my junior and senior years because I was leaving so early from Schaumburg to get downtown, but it was bright sunlight by the time I exited the subway at the Chicago/State stop at around 8-8:05 am.

My youngest just graduated high school in January, and he had to wait by the bus stop in the dark during the deep winter months and again after the switch to DST, but its not an issue for him anymore.

My work schedule is such that it really doesn't matter if its standard time or daylight time, I switch between 12 hours of dayshift and 12 hours of night shift every 2 weeks. I was on my weekend off switching from days to nights this last change over and like jeffandnichole upthread I didn't go to bed until almost 5am Sunday so it was no big deal to me either way. The years I got stuck working night shift during the spring switchover it was cool because I only had to work 11 hours that night while the day crew bitched and whined that they lost an hour of sleep.

I am at the stage of my life all of my work and most of my recreational activities are indoors anyway so the exact time of sunrise and sunset have almost zero impact to me. I do, however, see and understand the strong feelings on both sides of this topic because to some people, their whole life revolves around how much sunlight they get and when it starts and stops.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 12:54:44 AM by slorydn1 »
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #201 on: March 13, 2018, 06:26:11 AM »

Well, since a solar year is 365.25 days, why not allocate the extra six hours over 365 days every year instead of adding a leap year?  Would add a little over 59 seconds every day if you allocate the extra 21,600 seconds over 365 days.
And you e d up with sunrise  at 9 pm by the next new year day. Yet another year, and  sun does up at 5 pm. Great for evening commute...
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #202 on: March 13, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »

Well, since a solar year is 365.25 days, why not allocate the extra six hours over 365 days every year instead of adding a leap year?  Would add a little over 59 seconds every day if you allocate the extra 21,600 seconds over 365 days.
And you e d up with sunrise  at 9 pm by the next new year day. Yet another year, and  sun does up at 5 pm. Great for evening commute...

I think (and hope) that was meant sarcastically...
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Duke87

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #203 on: March 14, 2018, 12:19:17 AM »

I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

Not having a time change would avoid this, but... yeah I just can't get on board with doing away with DST because I don't want to lose an hour of useful daylight every day in the summer. On the other hand if we were to go about shifting time zones westward as Florida is trying to do (putting them in Atlantic Standard Time year round), that would make it more palatable.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #204 on: March 14, 2018, 05:23:34 AM »

Go to UTC-4:30 year-round?
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1995hoo

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #205 on: March 14, 2018, 07:40:42 AM »

I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I've always thought the calendar reform ideas are an interesting concept that stand almost no chance of becoming reality.

*Regarding the Computus issue, it'd be similar to what most of the Orthodox Churches do now because they determine the date of Easter via the Julian Calendar and then map it to the Gregorian Calendar.
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #206 on: March 14, 2018, 08:11:23 AM »

I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I've always thought the calendar reform ideas are an interesting concept that stand almost no chance of becoming reality.

*Regarding the Computus issue, it'd be similar to what most of the Orthodox Churches do now because they determine the date of Easter via the Julian Calendar and then map it to the Gregorian Calendar.
Calendar issues are more or less non-existant, with leap year being relatively easily accounted for and irregularities being quite infrequent. Daylight savings, however, is a constant nuisance - and to make it worse, it is not fully predictable as politicians love to play with the clock for whatever reasons.
I know that a big factory over here uses internal time, and equipment control system runs on EST the year round, no EDT.
On a separate, but similar notice - as far as I know, NavStar system (commonly referred to as GPS) does not accommodate leap seconds. Which are, like leap years, a result of natural cycles being not exactly proportional to human-made units. In fact solar system motion is somewhat chaotic... But as a result, GPS time is offset from observed time by, if I remember correctly, 15 seconds by now.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #207 on: March 14, 2018, 08:40:04 AM »

For PSE&G electric customers in NJ who are on their RMS (Residential Load Management) Schedule, aka "White Meter", there is no DST.  The meters operate on EST year round.  So the peak hours are 7:00 am to 9:00 pm when we are on Standard time but 8:00 am to 10:00 pm when we are on DST.  So you have to adjust your heavy usage schedules accordingly.  A lot of customers don't know this.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #208 on: March 14, 2018, 09:00:20 AM »

I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I once proposed a system that would only need two different calendars, a 365 day calendar and a 366 day calendar by having a day simply called "New Year's Day" between the last day of December (always Saturday) and the first day of January (always Sunday) that does not belong to a month nor a day of the week, with a "Leap Day," also not belonging to a month or a day of the week, following New Year's Day every four years.  My version had 31 days in January, March, July and October with 30 days the other months.

I was told the biggest reason this would never happen is that various religions would have a problem with a calendar that had extra days between the weekly holy day and thus messing up religious schedules.
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #209 on: March 14, 2018, 10:13:36 AM »

I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I once proposed a system that would only need two different calendars, a 365 day calendar and a 366 day calendar by having a day simply called "New Year's Day" between the last day of December (always Saturday) and the first day of January (always Sunday) that does not belong to a month nor a day of the week, with a "Leap Day," also not belonging to a month or a day of the week, following New Year's Day every four years.  My version had 31 days in January, March, July and October with 30 days the other months.

I was told the biggest reason this would never happen is that various religions would have a problem with a calendar that had extra days between the weekly holy day and thus messing up religious schedules.
As a matter of fact someone already tried that. USSR was running a 6-day "week" calendar in parallel with 7-day week in 1930-s, with "weekend" being 6,12,18, 24 and 30th of each month.
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J N Winkler

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #210 on: March 14, 2018, 10:45:58 AM »

Imputed length of a year in the Gregorian calendar = 365.2425 days.

Actual length of a year = 365.2422 days.

Hence all the faff and bother with leap seconds and so on.

One of the few good things about DST-related time changes is that it forces correction of clock drift and also consideration of storing or discarding timepieces that are not serving a useful purpose.
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1995hoo

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #211 on: March 14, 2018, 11:19:34 AM »

Quote
As a matter of fact someone already tried that. USSR was running a 6-day "week" calendar in parallel with 7-day week in 1930-s, with "weekend" being 6,12,18, 24 and 30th of each month.

Then there was the French Republican Calendar, which tried to do everything in terms of tens (a “décade” of ten days instead of a seven-day week, ten hours in a day, other weirdness). It had a number of problems and didn’t last long at all. A major reason it was formulated was part of the anti-religion aspects of the French Revolution and the Gregorian Calendar being seen as tied to religion.

As I type this, under that calendar the time is 4:72 and the date is 24 Ventôse CCXXVI.
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2018, 12:12:11 PM »

I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

Not having a time change would avoid this, but... yeah I just can't get on board with doing away with DST because I don't want to lose an hour of useful daylight every day in the summer. On the other hand if we were to go about shifting time zones westward as Florida is trying to do (putting them in Atlantic Standard Time year round), that would make it more palatable.

For data like that collected every 15 minutes, 24x7, I'd see if it was possible to use UTC instead of local civil time.  That's what astronomers do.

The railroads kept standard time year-round until the standardization of DST observance in the late 1960s.

Airlines that are big enough to operate in more than one time zone typically chose one time zone to schedule all their operations.  Of course in the public timetables they convert to local civil time.

Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #213 on: March 14, 2018, 12:40:37 PM »

DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #214 on: March 14, 2018, 12:43:15 PM »

DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless. 
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #215 on: March 14, 2018, 12:49:52 PM »

DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless.

It's really not that complicated, either. I'd prefer year-round DST to year-round standard time, but at the end of the day (no pun intended), the current setup is pretty close to optimal.

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #216 on: March 14, 2018, 12:51:57 PM »

DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless.

Year-round DST isn't even DST at all; it's just moving one time zone over.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #217 on: March 14, 2018, 01:41:24 PM »

I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #218 on: March 14, 2018, 01:44:09 PM »

DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless.

It's really not that complicated, either. I'd prefer year-round DST to year-round standard time, but at the end of the day (no pun intended), the current setup is pretty close to optimal.

Same, except that I'd find year-round standard time far more amenable than year-round DST on account of being near the western edge of my time zone. If we did go to year-round DST, I think most of Georgia (everyone but the Savannah area, and heck, maybe even them) would push for a move to the Central time zone. Technically, by longitude, everything west of a line along roughly US 221 (US 441 south of Douglas) already should be.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #219 on: March 14, 2018, 01:49:13 PM »

I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #220 on: March 14, 2018, 01:53:30 PM »

Imputed length of a year in the Gregorian calendar = 365.2425 days.

Actual length of a year = 365.2422 days.

Hence all the faff and bother with leap seconds and so on.

One of the few good things about DST-related time changes is that it forces correction of clock drift and also consideration of storing or discarding timepieces that are not serving a useful purpose.

Nope. There are 2 separate cycles, daily earth rotation - about 24 hour, responsible for night and day; and annual orbit around the Sun, responsible for winter and summer.
Leap days take care of the fact that year is neither 365 (once every 4 years) nor 365.25 days (once every 100 years). In fact, astronomic year is not extremely stable with variations as much as 18 minutes during past 20 years. But, really, who cares? Worst comes to worst we'll have to add or remove leap year every 100 years or so.

Leap second is a result of earth's rotation slowing down - and being not exactly constant as well. Since astronomers are in charge, they insist on lunch at Greenwich observatory starting exactly at astronomic noon and not a second earlier. I couldn't care less if sun is 15 seconds off (and even a minute that is going to be accumulated over my lifetime, or 10 minutes..) for the sake of not touching the clock....
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #221 on: March 14, 2018, 01:57:15 PM »

I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #222 on: March 14, 2018, 02:00:32 PM »

I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.
How does moving the clocks back one half hour prevent everyone working from still working on 1 hour increments?
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #223 on: March 14, 2018, 02:29:53 PM »

DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless. 

I don't believe most people would elect to have it year-round.  It was extremely unpopular when year-round was actually tried.

Here at 47 degrees north, the morning commute is already in twilight a couple of weeks before and after the winter solstice and it's pretty unpleasant.  We don't need it to be months of twilight or full darkness for the commute.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #224 on: March 14, 2018, 02:35:44 PM »

I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.
How does moving the clocks back one half hour prevent everyone working from still working on 1 hour increments?
Because if I am scheduling  a conference call for X o'clock sharp, everyone expect they will have that at .00
Going to half-hour increments breaks that pattern.
It is not a bad idea in general - but since everyone is used to whole hour steps...
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