How do you define the Midwest?

[kphoger]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Ozarks.

For me, the deep South, geographically, does not include "mountains".

Eh, fair enough.  I suppose Ozarks are more like Appalachia.

And see, with your one-word reply earlier, I didn't realize you were trying to prove Arkansas was in the deep south.  The Ozarks are, to me, so obviously not in the deep south, that I assumed your reply was meant to reinforce bugo's assertion—not meant to counter it.

[webny99]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

It borders Louisiana. It borders Mississippi the state and Mississippi the river. It's across said river from Memphis. It has geographical, historical and cultural ties to the Mississippi Delta. I don't see anything not deep southern about eastern/southeastern Arkansas, though I respect that can't necessarily be applied to the whole state.

I can at least see it for the Delta region. The rest of the state, especially west of US 67, is definitely still southern but more of a peripheral south.

Yeah, I think US 67 would be a good dividing line, or I-30/I-40 at the very least. That would include the areas that most obviously belong by nature of bordering Mississippi/Louisiana and/or being in the Mississippi River Delta.

Eh, fair enough.  I suppose Ozarks are more like Appalachia.

And see, with your one-word reply earlier, I didn't realize you were trying to prove Arkansas was in the deep south.  The Ozarks are, to me, so obviously not in the deep south, that I assumed your reply was meant to reinforce bugo's assertion—not meant to counter it.

I agree that the Ozarks are not the Deep South. Still very southern, and in many ways pretty close to a superlative of it, but a slightly different brand than Deep South all the same.

[Roadgeekteen]

Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. The plains states are borderline.

[JayhawkCO]

The plains states are borderline.

This ideology is still completely mind-boggling to me.

[Roadgeekteen]

The plains states are borderline.

This ideology is still completely mind-boggling to me.

When I think of midwest I think Chicago, Ohio, Detroit, great lakes, and rust belt. The Plains States in atlases I owned as a child were often a separate region from the midwest. Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.

[hotdogPi]

Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.

Flat (except the WV-adjacent areas), used for farming, significant majority white (no Black Belt like the South has), and both voted to guarantee abortion rights in the state constitution via ballot initiative despite being red states.

[JayhawkCO]

Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.

Except for agriculture, accent, ancestry, general topography, large state universities, culinary traditions...

[tigerwings]

A former co-worker in Denver, from Topeka, had the same accent and same pronunciation of words as my mother, who was from SE Ohio.

[Scott5114]

Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.

I can't really think of any ways they're different.

[JayhawkCO]

Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.

I can't really think of any ways they're different.

Maybe Steubenville and surrounds being more Appalachian, but Columbus and Wichita are two generic, Midwestern cities to me.

[bugo]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Ozarks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH are you serious? The Ozarks are NOTHING like Mississippi, Georgia or Alabama. Perhaps there's some similarity between the Ouachitas and the northern Georgia mountains, but the Ozarks are nothing like the Deep South. Fayetteville has more in common with Tulsa and Springfield than Macon or Birmingham.

[bugo]

It borders Louisiana. It borders Mississippi the state and Mississippi the river. It's across said river from Memphis.

It also shares a border with Missouri, but that doesn't mean Arkansas is part of the Midwest.

It has geographical, historical and cultural ties to the Mississippi Delta. I don't see anything not deep southern about eastern/southeastern Arkansas, though I respect that can't necessarily be applied to the whole state.

Have you ever been to Arkansas? Have you been to the actual deep south? They're nothing alike!

[US 89]

In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.

[vdeane]

Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.

I can't really think of any ways they're different.

I wonder if the fact that we're roadgeeks has anything to do with the divergence in views, especially for those of us not from the area.  Looking at a highway map, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois don't look at all like most of the rest of the Midwest because they're covered in interstates.  Iowa, Kansas, and Nebraska on the other hand largely only have interstates because they needed to pass through while traveling across the country, not because most of the areas on there actually needed interstates to connect them in and of themselves.  They also have large swaths of the state not near an interstate at all (something that's even more pronounced in the states to the west).  If the answer to the question "would the bulk of your rural interstates still have been built even if the Interstate Highway Act never passed?" is "no", I can see why those states would be viewed differently to those where the answer is "yes".

[The Nature Boy]

In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.

I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.

[webny99]

It borders Louisiana. It borders Mississippi the state and Mississippi the river. It's across said river from Memphis.

It also shares a border with Missouri, but that doesn't mean Arkansas is part of the Midwest.

Sharing a border with Arkansas doesn't make Missouri part of the Midwest either... 

It has geographical, historical and cultural ties to the Mississippi Delta. I don't see anything not deep southern about eastern/southeastern Arkansas, though I respect that can't necessarily be applied to the whole state.

Have you ever been to Arkansas? Have you been to the actual deep south? They're nothing alike!

No, FWIW, but I already pointed out the similarities and I'm not sure what the difference is other than the Ozarks being a slightly different brand of south, but that doesn't apply to the Delta region. How is Forrest City, AR different from Batesville, MS? El Dorado from Ruston, LA? Magnolia from Minden? It would be pretty shocking if they're truly nothing alike, or even have more differences than similarities.

[JayhawkCO]

In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.

I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.

No offense, but their opinion doesn't really matter. If the people who live there think they're Midwestern, then they are. Everyone I lived near in Kansas knows Kansas is in the Midwest.

[Rothman]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Ozarks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH are you serious? The Ozarks are NOTHING like Mississippi, Georgia or Alabama. Perhaps there's some similarity between the Ouachitas and the northern Georgia mountains, but the Ozarks are nothing like the Deep South. Fayetteville has more in common with Tulsa and Springfield than Macon or Birmingham.

A premature ejaculation before reading the rest of the thread.

[Flint1979]

The following states are in the Midwest: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio.

[Flint1979]

Arkansas is in the South but not the Deep South.

[The Nature Boy]

In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.

I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.

No offense, but their opinion doesn't really matter. If the people who live there think they're Midwestern, then they are. Everyone I lived near in Kansas knows Kansas is in the Midwest.

I would agree with you. The Great Lakes and Plains regions are subregions of the Midwest.

But someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality. If someone from Pennsylvania tried convincing me they lived in the South, I wouldn't be out of line to tell them that they are factually incorrect.

[JayhawkCO]

In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.

I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.

No offense, but their opinion doesn't really matter. If the people who live there think they're Midwestern, then they are. Everyone I lived near in Kansas knows Kansas is in the Midwest.

I would agree with you. The Great Lakes and Plains regions are subregions of the Midwest.

But someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality. If someone from Pennsylvania tried convincing me they lived in the South, I wouldn't be out of line to tell them that they are factually incorrect.

One person? Sure. You can tell them they're wrong. Everyone that lives there? You're more likely the person who is wrong.

[kphoger]

Arkansas is in the South but not the Deep South.

That's the way I see it too.  But my time spent in Arkansas is very limited, so I'm open to correction.

I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.

someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality.

1.  Defining the Midwest isn't about "objective reality".  If it were, then this thread wouldn't have any discussion in it.

2.  Your Ohio friends' subjective feelings don't override the objective reality that the Great Plains are Midwestern.

[The Nature Boy]

Arkansas is in the South but not the Deep South.

That's the way I see it too.  But my time spent in Arkansas is very limited, so I'm open to correction.

I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.

someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality.

1.  Defining the Midwest isn't about "objective reality".  If it were, then this thread wouldn't have any discussion in it.

2.  Your Ohio friends' subjective feelings don't override the objective reality that the Great Plains are Midwestern.

Re-read my post. I agreed that Kansas is in the Midwest.

[kphoger]

I wouldn't be out of line to tell them that they are factually incorrect.

Re-read my post. I agreed that Kansas is in the Midwest.

Oh, I know.  But you did tell your Ohio friends that they're factually incorrect, didn't you?