How do you define the Midwest?

[Scott5114]

That's a pretty good question for the "Great Plains is not the Midwest" crowd—what exactly is the difference supposed to be between Kansas and Indiana, anyhow?

[freebrickproductions]

That's a pretty good question for the "Great Plains is not the Midwest" crowd—what exactly is the difference supposed to be between Kansas and Indiana, anyhow?

Honestly, to me, I always mentally associated Indiana and other more directly "Midwestern" states around it as being part of the Rust Belt, but not so much the Plains states.

[Scott5114]

That's a pretty good question for the "Great Plains is not the Midwest" crowd—what exactly is the difference supposed to be between Kansas and Indiana, anyhow?

Honestly, to me, I always mentally associated Indiana and other more directly "Midwestern" states around it as being part of the Rust Belt, but not so much the Plains states.

The Kansas City and Indianapolis metropolitan areas lost roughly the same number of manufacturing jobs between 1954 and 2002.

West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and upstate New York are generally considered part of the Rust Belt, but are clearly not Midwestern.

[kphoger]

That's a pretty good question for the "Great Plains is not the Midwest" crowd—what exactly is the difference supposed to be between Kansas and Indiana, anyhow?

This is exactly the point that Chris and I have been hammering home.

[JayhawkCO]

Honestly, to me, I always mentally associated Indiana and other more directly "Midwestern" states around it as being part of the Rust Belt, but not so much the Plains states.

The Kansas City and Indianapolis metropolitan areas lost roughly the same number of manufacturing jobs between 1954 and 2002.

Agreed.

Kansas City


Youngstown

[vdeane]

While I try to understand opinions on this subject are different, I struggle to get in the mindset that people are seemingly trying to argue the Plains and Midwest are as radically dissimilar as Georgia and Washington or something. ND/SD east of the Missouri are definitely Midwestern; the Corn Palace in Mitchell, SD would be just as much in place in most of MN, IA, IL, IN, or WI if it was built there.

In my mind, "Midwest" implies a part of the country that is still fairly populated (and with more trees), so while I can easily see places like Kansas City and Omaha, the western parts of those states and the Dakotas are more of a stretch.  In fact, it took driving through Illinois and seeing what the rural areas of that state looked like for me to begin to understand, although it's still hard to picture sometimes with parts of the country that I still picture as being like the Kansas scenes out of The Wizard of Oz (or worse - the Little House books).

[kphoger]

(or worse - the Little House books)

US-14 corridor Minnesota is definitely part of the Midwest, though, right?

In my mind, "Midwest" implies a part of the country that is still fairly populated (and with more trees) ... In fact, it took driving through Illinois and seeing what the rural areas of that state looked like for me to begin to understand

Being from Illinois originally, that does strike me as funny.  Whenever I think of driving down Route 47 from I-55 to I-74, or up Farina Road from I-57 to I-70, or south down Highway 45 from Cisne, "fairly populated" and "more trees" are two phrases that definitely do not come to mind.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

While I try to understand opinions on this subject are different, I struggle to get in the mindset that people are seemingly trying to argue the Plains and Midwest are as radically dissimilar as Georgia and Washington or something. ND/SD east of the Missouri are definitely Midwestern; the Corn Palace in Mitchell, SD would be just as much in place in most of MN, IA, IL, IN, or WI if it was built there.

In my mind, "Midwest" implies a part of the country that is still fairly populated (and with more trees), so while I can easily see places like Kansas City and Omaha, the western parts of those states and the Dakotas are more of a stretch.  In fact, it took driving through Illinois and seeing what the rural areas of that state looked like for me to begin to understand, although it's still hard to picture sometimes with parts of the country that I still picture as being like the Kansas scenes out of The Wizard of Oz (or worse - the Little House books).

So I may be inferring too much, but to me what your post kind of boils down to is "the large fringe Plains/Midwest cities and the rural Plains country operate independently of each other and never interact," which is definitely not the case. All that product being produced in the ag sector has to go somewhere to get shipped out, and while the cities may have diversified away from ag to varying degrees, it's still a core part of economy on the eastern Plains.

The relationships between rural and urban are frayed, sure, but out here they definitely need each other, and especially so on the Plains.

[hbelkins]

The fact that Ohio would be considered more midwestern than the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, or Oklahoma is mind-boggling.

[Scott5114]

In fact, it took driving through Illinois and seeing what the rural areas of that state looked like for me to begin to understand, although it's still hard to picture sometimes with parts of the country that I still picture as being like the Kansas scenes out of The Wizard of Oz (or worse - the Little House books).

When someone decided to replicate Dorothy's house as a tourist attraction, they sited it in Liberal, which is near the Oklahoma panhandle.

Bop around on I-35 between Emporia or I-70 west of Topeka a bit and you'll see some pretty Midwest-looking scenes.

[JayhawkCO]

The fact that Ohio would be considered more midwestern than the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, or Oklahoma is mind-boggling.

I agree with all of this statement except the Oklahoma part. Tulsa is midwestern. OKC is not. I think Ohio splits into different regions just like Oklahoma does. Cleveland is more eastern. Cinci is more southern. Steubenville is more Appalachia. Columbus is more midwestern.

[freebrickproductions]

But how would Ohio not be part of the Midwest? It's literally on the Great Lakes, which is where I tend to center my definition of the "Midwest" around.

[JayhawkCO]

But how would Ohio not be part of the Midwest? It's literally on the Great Lakes, which is where I tend to center my definition of the "Midwest" around.

So upstate New York is also Midwestern?

[kphoger]

I think Ohio splits into different regions just like Oklahoma does. Cleveland is more eastern. Cinci is more southern. Steubenville is more Appalachia. Columbus is more midwestern.

And yet, as I mentioned upthread, Cincinnati is the "Queen City of the West".

[JayhawkCO]

I think Ohio splits into different regions just like Oklahoma does. Cleveland is more eastern. Cinci is more southern. Steubenville is more Appalachia. Columbus is more midwestern.

And yet, as I mentioned upthread, Cincinnati is the "Queen City of the West".

I guess that makes Cinci and San Francisco similar culturally.

But how is that possible when a city to its west, St. Louis, is Gateway to the West? Obviously they weren't looking in the wrong direction.

[kphoger]

But how is that possible when a city to its west, St. Louis, is Gateway to the West?

Meanwhile, one of the big outstanding question in this thread is whether the state immediately west of Saint Louis counts as part of the Midwest.

[Roadgeekteen]

But how is that possible when a city to its west, St. Louis, is Gateway to the West?

Meanwhile, one of the big outstanding question in this thread is whether the state immediately west of Saint Louis counts as part of the Midwest.

Missouri is a midwestern state with some southern influences.

[JayhawkCO]

But how is that possible when a city to its west, St. Louis, is Gateway to the West?

Meanwhile, one of the big outstanding question in this thread is whether the state immediately west of Saint Louis counts as part of the Midwest.

Missouri is a midwestern state with some southern influences.

I'm actually moderately surprised than in the "self-reporting" image I posted here that 95% of Missourians consider themselves Midwestern. I would have guessed that a moderate amount of folks southeast of I-44 would have put themselves in the South.

[kphoger]

I would have guessed that a moderate amount of folks southeast of I-44 would have put themselves in the South.

Those in Springfield were too high on meth to respond, and the ones farther east don't know how to read.

[vdeane]

the large fringe Plains/Midwest cities and the rural Plains country operate independently of each other and never interact

It's not just about the density of a specific plot of land but where the cities are.  When I think of the Midwest, what comes to mind first is places like Ohio and Michigan, where cities are close together like they are in the Northeast, just without the continuous suburban sprawl that we see along I-95.  There, you can drive from one major city (ie, one large enough to have a freeway system) on a major interstate and get to the next in an hour or two.  Out in the Plains, you can drive all day and still might not reach the next major city.

Being from Illinois originally, that does strike me as funny.  Whenever I think of driving down Route 47 from I-55 to I-74, or up Farina Road from I-57 to I-70, or south down Highway 45 from Cisne, "fairly populated" and "more trees" are two phrases that definitely do not come to mind.

Honestly, the terrain of Illinois surprised me.  I wasn't expecting so many farms that far east.  I thought stuff like that was mainly Iowa or the column of states starting with Texas and ending in North Dakota; I was expecting it to look more like this.  It's actually amazing how little travel west I got growing up; most trips were either to the Thousand Islands, though there were the years we went to Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, and Washington DC.

But how would Ohio not be part of the Midwest? It's literally on the Great Lakes, which is where I tend to center my definition of the "Midwest" around.

So upstate New York is also Midwestern?

That map literally put Buffalo in the Midwest, and people do compare Buffalo to places like Cleveland a lot.  Growing up in Rochester, we definitely felt like we had more in common with places like Ohio and Michigan than anywhere along I-95.

[thenetwork]

Defining the Midwest is confusing.

As a former Ohio native, I, like most of the state, consider Ohio as the eastern edge of the midwest.  I define the midwest as Ohio all the way out to Kansas & Nebraska, and beyond that is The West. Much like how I consider "The South" going all the way into at least part of Texas.

I consider the Great Plains as most of the western part of the midwest, and the Heartland of America as most of the eastern part of the midwest, as if they were sub-sections of the midwest.

In short, the definition of the midwest "overlaps" other defined parts.of the country, depending on who you ask.


 

[Scott5114]

I agree with all of this statement except the Oklahoma part. Tulsa is midwestern. OKC is not.

Explain what makes Tulsa midwestern and OKC not.

The only real difference between them that I've ever been able to detect—having lived in the OKC metro for 33 years—is that OKC is slightly more politically conservative and Tulsa is somewhat more artsy. Even then I think OKC is still to the left of, say, Springfield, Missouri. (I saw someone flying a massive Nazi flag down National Avenue in Springfield in 2008, which would be unthinkable in Oklahoma City.) So I don't think any of that has much to do with the Southern/Midwestern distinction.