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Author Topic: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead  (Read 5237 times)

US 81

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2018, 09:06:53 AM »

Lots of limos that size have long side-facing bench seats. (eg two long benches facing each other for maximum party interactions).  Even 3-point shoulder-harness restraints do not have a good record in preventing injury when crash forces are applied in a side direction (as opposed to back-to-front / front-to-back direction).   
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kalvado

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2018, 09:13:55 AM »

Some of the victims: https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-limousine-crash-victims-included-newlyweds-brothers

Then there is now this, the limo was in a "terrible condition": https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-crash-victim-text-messaged-that-limo-was-in-terrible-condition-before-accident-killed-20

And in another article, local officials were bemoaning about how dangerous the intersection was and rattling off about tractor-trailers (everyone's favorite punching bag, it seems). Except trucks were banned, perhaps after the intersection was cleaned up several years ago?
The way local newspaper writes about it is that trucks were banned because they were doing the exact same thing as limo did - running through the stop sign and into the parking lot. And well, it is a challenging spot, so I wouldn't be surprised if that actually happened.
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abefroman329

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2018, 09:24:25 AM »

Lots of limos that size have long side-facing bench seats. (eg two long benches facing each other for maximum party interactions).  Even 3-point shoulder-harness restraints do not have a good record in preventing injury when crash forces are applied in a side direction (as opposed to back-to-front / front-to-back direction).   
I wonder if that’s why limos that size are much less common than they used to be. I think we had around 20 people at my bachelor party, maybe less, and we were carried around town in a party bus with front-facing seats.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2018, 09:36:32 AM »

Based my knowledge of that intersection and from the pictures I've seen of where the limo came to rest, it looks to me like it went through part of the parking lot and in to a wooded ditch area, where it probably hit the side of that ditch, possibly sideways.  Of course, it's all speculation now.  The NTSB says they expect the investigation to last about 5 days.

If it was in fact that there was a mechanical issue or a driver incapacitation, it happened at a most unfortunate location.  They came down 30 from Amsterdam, and there are plenty of places where a car could go off the road at a curve at the bottom of a hill and go into into a corn field or cow pasture and while it wouldn't be great, it would be much more survivable.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2018, 09:55:26 AM »

I just suspected that it hit some kind of large and immovable object(s) or very large vehicle,  that caused severe deceleration G-forces, to cause that kind of nonsurvivable crash with that many fatalities.


Stretch limos seem to have a poor track record when it comes to safety.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2018, 10:04:36 AM »

I just suspected that it hit some kind of large and immovable object(s) or very large vehicle,  that caused severe deceleration G-forces, to cause that kind of nonsurvivable crash with that many fatalities.

Stretch limos seem to have a poor track record when it comes to safety.

I've never been fond of the things.  They don't seem to go through any real, proper crash testing.  And they're usually made by slicing the donor vehicle in half, between the front and rear doors, adding a section in between.  This loses the normal structural integrity of the vehicle as designed by the manufacturer.  Granted, there are manufacturer designed and built limos, but they're nowhere near as long as the typical stretch limo (an example would be the Presidential limo - that's designed and built by GM; the Cadillac Series 75 was another, likewise designed and built by GM).
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2018, 10:08:21 AM »

Based my knowledge of that intersection and from the pictures I've seen of where the limo came to rest, it looks to me like it went through part of the parking lot and in to a wooded ditch area, where it probably hit the side of that ditch, possibly sideways.  Of course, it's all speculation now.  The NTSB says they expect the investigation to last about 5 days.

If it was in fact that there was a mechanical issue or a driver incapacitation, it happened at a most unfortunate location.  They came down 30 from Amsterdam, and there are plenty of places where a car could go off the road at a curve at the bottom of a hill and go into into a corn field or cow pasture and while it wouldn't be great, it would be much more survivable.
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Schoharie-crash-aftermath-A-pall-descends-on-13289583.php#photo-16295990
Gallery images 6,10,12 and 13.
As far as I understand, image 6 shows where wreck was extracted - otherwise dirt and scratches on pavement makes no sense. And I would imagine it went in the same way, no damage on  the sides.
So looks like limo vent off paved store driveway - and only a stretch near the road looks paved, most of the lot is not. It is clearly not a state road with the curb or rail.
Then off-road flight was fairly short, 20 feet or so, and it ended head on with the tree, images 12-13.   And tree had to be cut during rescue and cleanup, image 10.
I
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2018, 10:43:45 AM »

We may have to wait for the NTSB report for full details on how this crash could kill 100% of the vehicle occupants (only one of the 18 survived long enough to be transported to hospital, where he or she subsequently died).  I suspect the sudden deceleration when the vehicle hit the ditch slope would have been enough.  The Times-Union pictures show deep gouges in the asphalt surface of the parking lot, which suggests to me that the limo was going fast enough at the bottom of the hill (more than 100 mph?) that the crossfall of the cross road was enough to launch it into the air, destroying the suspension when it landed, and leaving it with enough leftover momentum to slide into the ditch at tremendous speed.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2018, 10:52:15 AM »

https://dailygazette.com/article/2018/10/07/ntsb-en-route-to-multiple-fatality-schoharie-crash-scene
Image 5 in a gallery.
Car looks pretty much intact: no roof collapse, no rollover, not broken.
If only people were buckled up...
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Beltway

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2018, 10:54:06 AM »

It must have been pretty horrific, for "the press" not to post photos of the wrecked vehicle, given how in nearly every case they post detailed photos of horrific bus accidents.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2018, 10:59:34 AM »

https://dailygazette.com/article/2018/10/07/ntsb-en-route-to-multiple-fatality-schoharie-crash-scene
Image 5 in a gallery.
Car looks pretty much intact: no roof collapse, no rollover, not broken.
If only people were buckled up...

Buckling up wouldn't have helped, much like why you can't (and shouldn't) retrofit belts into older school buses. Safety systems should be designed from the onset, which is why school buses (using my example) are being fitted with modern bench seats and proper restraints.
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kalvado

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2018, 11:02:08 AM »

It must have been pretty horrific, for "the press" not to post photos of the wrecked vehicle, given how in nearly every case they post detailed photos of horrific bus accidents.
I suspect press didn't have a chance to actually get to the scene, number of casualties was not reported until next day - and this is on outskirts of the metropolitan area, not too many people there. TU photos are after the wreck was removed.
However, there is a photo in Daily Gazette. Vehicle body is pretty much intact, and the door seems to be opened normally.


Buckling up wouldn't have helped, much like why you can't (and shouldn't) retrofit belts into older school buses. Safety systems should be designed from the onset, which is why school buses (using my example) are being fitted with modern bench seats and proper restraints.


I am more thinking along the lines of people thrown around as opposed to staying in place. Regular 3-point seatbelts could be useless on side benches anyway.
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Brandon

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2018, 11:05:52 AM »

https://dailygazette.com/article/2018/10/07/ntsb-en-route-to-multiple-fatality-schoharie-crash-scene
Image 5 in a gallery.
Car looks pretty much intact: no roof collapse, no rollover, not broken.
If only people were buckled up...

Part of the limo seems intact.  We're only seeing maybe the rear half to two-thirds in the image.  I'm wondering where the rest of the limo is.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2018, 11:12:27 AM »

What modifications were made when the intersection was reconstructed in '08?
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Beltway

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2018, 11:18:45 AM »

Car looks pretty much intact: no roof collapse, no rollover, not broken.
If only people were buckled up...
Part of the limo seems intact.  We're only seeing maybe the rear half to two-thirds in the image.  I'm wondering where the rest of the limo is.

Right … maybe 1/2 of the vehicle in that photo.  The rest may have disintegrated.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2018, 11:38:46 AM »

I see that two pedestrians were part of the 20 as the vehicle had only 18 occupants.

Very sad.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2018, 12:13:44 PM »

Latest from Governor: vehicle had failed inspection and was on the road illegally and the driver was not appropriately licensed to drive it.  Wow.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2018, 12:48:05 PM »

I just suspected that it hit some kind of large and immovable object(s) or very large vehicle,  that caused severe deceleration G-forces, to cause that kind of nonsurvivable crash with that many fatalities.

Stretch limos seem to have a poor track record when it comes to safety.

I've never been fond of the things.  They don't seem to go through any real, proper crash testing.  And they're usually made by slicing the donor vehicle in half, between the front and rear doors, adding a section in between.  This loses the normal structural integrity of the vehicle as designed by the manufacturer.  Granted, there are manufacturer designed and built limos, but they're nowhere near as long as the typical stretch limo (an example would be the Presidential limo - that's designed and built by GM; the Cadillac Series 75 was another, likewise designed and built by GM).
Yeah, the Presidential limo is designed to protect its occupants. Stretch limos, well, aren’t.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2018, 01:31:28 PM »

For Scott/Beltway:  if you haven't seen the photos yet, the center of this is approximately where the limo crashed.  There is a 3-4ft high earthen berm behind the bushes.

For empirestate:  previously, the intersection was a very skewed-angle intersection located in front of the first house to the southeast of Apple Barrel...you can make out the former NY 30 alignment in the clearing across the road from Apple Barrel.  The intersection was realigned to the current 90-degree angle with left turn lanes added.  It was also later than 2008...in the 2010-2011 timeframe.

I would conjecture that 30A was made the "through route" because it has the interchange with I-88.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2018, 01:36:24 PM »

Latest from Governor: vehicle had failed inspection and was on the road illegally and the driver was not appropriately licensed to drive it.  Wow.
More details here: https://wgntv.com/2018/10/08/new-york-limo-crashed-that-killed-20-most-deadly-us-crash-since-2009/
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cl94

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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2018, 01:58:09 PM »

I'm pretty familiar with this area myself, living maybe 45 minutes away and driving through relatively often.

Even if this was the old configuration, the limo would have likely rolled over when it hit the bottom. IIRC, it was a 25 MPH curve. Limo would have run straight into a tree with the same result. There's a good reason trucks are directed to use 7-30A heading downhill here - it's one of the steepest sustained grades on a state highway in NY and easily avoidable. The current configuration is actually the result of a horrific accident in 2008. It's a known trouble spot.

30A needs to be the clear through route there. No ifs, ands, or buts. Majority of traffic to/from the south hops on I-88. It's roughly an 85-15 split in favor of 30A.

I'd still argue the current configuration is safer than what it was just because of sightlines. And short of a very costly realignment project to reduce the grade, there isn't a ton that could be done to 30 here. The one thing I could see them doing is rerouting 30 along Truck 30 and doing a maintenance swap with the county so they can legally ban all trucks/commercial vehicles. Under NY law, they cannot ban trucks from state highways unless said state highway is a parkway or there are geometric constraints.
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2018, 02:36:17 PM »

And with a viable alternative very close by, what motive is there to further refine the route?
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2018, 02:37:28 PM »

Wow, just wow. This is absolutely appalling. Is there anything on NY 30 at NY 7 instructing thru/truck traffic to turn right on NY 7?

Seems like the best solution would be to route NY 30 along existing NY 7 to NY 30A, and then truncate NY 30A to NY 7. Removing that segment of NY 30 from the State Highway system can't hurt. Also, NY 30 directly interchanging with I-88 can't hurt either. It actually makes a lot more sense than having the interchange with NY 30A.

Under NY law, they cannot ban trucks from state highways unless said state highway is a parkway or there are geometric constraints.

Am I missing something, or is a steep grade not a geometric constraint?
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2018, 02:47:28 PM »

Wow, just wow. This is absolutely appalling. Is there anything on NY 30 at NY 7 instructing thru/truck traffic to turn right on NY 7?

Like these?

https://goo.gl/maps/B2cYAVcbxRF2
https://goo.gl/maps/HzZFTqhSWMw
https://goo.gl/maps/ywaPzJjn8cu
https://goo.gl/maps/vy8saD3hqKD2
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Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2018, 03:01:32 PM »

and it all gets dirtier and dirtier.
Owner was convicted on federal fraud charges, was FBI informant in a very dirty "terrorism" case; limo business failed at least 4 inspections - but I assume FBI "get out of jail free" card worked....
Can it get any worse?
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/FBI-informant-in-terror-stings-owned-limo-in-13290392.php
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