AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules for political content in signatures and user profiles. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead  (Read 6601 times)

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8528
  • Sign Inspector

  • Age: 59
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: Today at 08:19:55 AM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2018, 03:02:10 PM »

and it all gets dirtier and dirtier.
Owner was convicted on federal fraud charges, was FBI informant in a very dirty "terrorism" case; limo business failed at least 4 inspections - but I assume FBI "get out of jail free" card worked....
Can it get any worse?
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/FBI-informant-in-terror-stings-owned-limo-in-13290392.php


Tempting fate?
Logged
a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -- Simon & Garfunkel

empirestate

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4122
  • Last Login: July 22, 2019, 08:45:10 PM
    • Empire State Roads
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2018, 03:04:52 PM »

For empirestate:  previously, the intersection was a very skewed-angle intersection located in front of the first house to the southeast of Apple Barrel...you can make out the former NY 30 alignment in the clearing across the road from Apple Barrel.  The intersection was realigned to the current 90-degree angle with left turn lanes added.  It was also later than 2008...in the 2010-2011 timeframe.

Ah, yes—I'm thinking 2008 because that's what I remember from the articles. Certainly, NYSDOT has been on this huge kick of realigning as a T-intersection anything that isn't one already. I wonder if this incident won't put a hold on that policy, even for a moment.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 5033
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 12:27:44 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2018, 04:04:44 PM »

For Scott/Beltway:  if you haven't seen the photos yet, the center of this is approximately where the limo crashed.  There is a 3-4ft high earthen berm behind the bushes.

Still doesn't really show what happened, although hitting an embankment could be almost like hitting a concrete wall in terms of G-forces.

My comments aren't meant to be morbid, one of my highway engineering jobs was working in an accident review unit where various highway and vehicle safety issues were worked on.  Some professional interest even if it was many years ago.  Just trying to understand a 100% fatality ratio in a vehicle with 18 people.  The comments about the possible design flaws in these "super stretch" limousines may explain a lot of it, they may tend to fly apart in a crash where a normal SUV would remain intact.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 04:06:54 PM by Beltway »
Logged
Scott M. Kozel
-- Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10233
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: July 22, 2019, 12:36:42 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2018, 04:51:54 PM »

and it all gets dirtier and dirtier.
Owner was convicted on federal fraud charges, was FBI informant in a very dirty "terrorism" case; limo business failed at least 4 inspections - but I assume FBI "get out of jail free" card worked....
Can it get any worse?
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/FBI-informant-in-terror-stings-owned-limo-in-13290392.php

I am not that concerned about his dealings with the FBI.  But  that the owner was running an unsafe fleet of vehicles is a serious and  maybe criminal problem.
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

seicer

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1267
  • Last Login: Today at 10:48:56 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2018, 04:56:51 PM »

Yeah, an informant isn't that big of a deal. Neither are other unrelated charges.
Logged

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8528
  • Sign Inspector

  • Age: 59
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: Today at 08:19:55 AM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2018, 05:00:01 PM »

and it all gets dirtier and dirtier.
Owner was convicted on federal fraud charges, was FBI informant in a very dirty "terrorism" case; limo business failed at least 4 inspections - but I assume FBI "get out of jail free" card worked....
Can it get any worse?
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/FBI-informant-in-terror-stings-owned-limo-in-13290392.php

I am not that concerned about his dealings with the FBI.  But  that the owner was running an unsafe fleet of vehicles is a serious and  maybe criminal problem.

Reviews for his motel aren't that great, either. Cutting corners and pocketing the profits.
Logged
a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -- Simon & Garfunkel

Jim

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4021
  • Check out http://travelmapping.net

  • Location: Amsterdam, NY
  • Last Login: Today at 11:16:06 AM
    • Travel and Other Pictures
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2018, 05:06:55 PM »

So far, I don't personally know any of the victims whose names are out, but the family names of the victims and of their relatives who have spoken to the media are familiar ones in town.  I've heard one of the couples recently bought and moved into a house just a few blocks from me.  It was already a very different kind of tragedy from my perspective, given that I know the crash area pretty well.  It hit me again how close to home that this, what appears to be one of the day's top national news stories, occurred, when I crossed the Mohawk on Route 30 on my way home from work a little while ago and saw the all the news vans and the tents set up for tonight's vigil for the victims and their families at the Mohawk Valley Gateway Overlook.
Logged
Photos I post are my own unless otherwise noted.
Signs: http://www.teresco.org/pics/signs/
Travel Mapping: http://travelmapping.net/user/?u=terescoj
Counties: http://www.mob-rule.com/user/terescoj
Twitter @JimTeresco (roads, travel, weather, sports)

webny99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2804
  • Roadgeek Forever.

  • Age: 19
  • Location: Rochester, NY
  • Last Login: Today at 08:44:51 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2018, 05:14:21 PM »

Wow, just wow. This is absolutely appalling. Is there anything on NY 30 at NY 7 instructing thru/truck traffic to turn right on NY 7?
Like these?
https://goo.gl/maps/B2cYAVcbxRF2
https://goo.gl/maps/HzZFTqhSWMw
https://goo.gl/maps/ywaPzJjn8cu
https://goo.gl/maps/vy8saD3hqKD2

So the answer would be, yes, there are signs discouraging truck traffic, but not thru-traffic in general (which is at least part of the problem, considering the limo was by definition not a truck).
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 05:19:07 PM by webny99 »
Logged
Left Lane is For Passing, Not Camping!
Threads Started
Counties Clinched

Brandon

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10294
  • Mr. Accelerator is our friend; Mr. Brake is not.

  • Age: 42
  • Location: Joliet, IL
  • Last Login: Today at 10:50:16 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2018, 05:35:53 PM »

and it all gets dirtier and dirtier.
Owner was convicted on federal fraud charges, was FBI informant in a very dirty "terrorism" case; limo business failed at least 4 inspections - but I assume FBI "get out of jail free" card worked....
Can it get any worse?
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/FBI-informant-in-terror-stings-owned-limo-in-13290392.php

I am not that concerned about his dealings with the FBI.  But  that the owner was running an unsafe fleet of vehicles is a serious and  maybe criminal problem.

Reviews for his motel aren't that great, either. Cutting corners and pocketing the profits.

Yeah, a 2.3 out of 5 really sucks, IMHO, considering that I refuse to stay in anything lower than a 4 out of 5.  Here's a good one from 7 months ago:

Quote
this place doesn’t even deserve one star. i rarely do reviews, but this is necessary. my fiancé and i stayed for over a month. they lied about the price. they told us our room was $225 a week. then come to find out, each room is different. our room turned out to be $250 a week. we payed $900 for the first month and was told that that was a discounted price, seeing as we paid for a month. looking at the place, i could tell it was a dump. the sheet between the bed and box spring was filthy. the bathtub, toilet and sink were filthy as well. we were told they aren’t responsible for cleaning the rooms and there is no room service.
i also had a loud neighbor. him and his fiancé would fight, argue and nothing was done about it, when we complained on multiple occasions. seems to me they have favorites. this place needs to be shut down. it’s not only unsanitary, but should be condemned. the owners are money hungry and don’t care about there tenants.

Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/wqYD342LeoR2

If that's any indication of his limo business, then those were crashes waiting to happen.
Logged
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

Illinois: America's own banana republic.

Screw the KSA; Stand with Canada.

SSOWorld

  • 'Sconsin
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3083
  • Interstate <Make up your mind!>

  • Age: 46
  • Location: MAH House!
  • Last Login: July 22, 2019, 11:35:12 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2018, 07:32:23 PM »

Topic locked for 12 hours from time of this post to calm down the conversation
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 09:46:31 PM by SSOWorld »
Logged
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/ssoworld-roads/

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10604
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: Today at 08:42:26 AM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2018, 01:30:42 PM »

Before the lockdown and political-comment-removal, someone (I think it was empirestate?) wondered if NYSDOT might put a hold on some sort of program they have to rebuild intersections into T-intersections as a result of this crash.

I doubt that will be case.  T-intersections are safer than skewed-angle intersections.  There's quite a bit of literature within TRB and FHWA on the subject.
Logged

abefroman329

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3151
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Chicago
  • Last Login: April 29, 2019, 05:55:26 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2018, 01:43:40 PM »

Before the lockdown and political-comment-removal, someone (I think it was empirestate?) wondered if NYSDOT might put a hold on some sort of program they have to rebuild intersections into T-intersections as a result of this crash.

I doubt that will be case.  T-intersections are safer than skewed-angle intersections.  There's quite a bit of literature within TRB and FHWA on the subject.
Yeah, I really think the cause of the crash was stretch limos being death machines, plus the driver not knowing what they were doing.
Logged

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2816
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 10:16:08 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2018, 02:26:26 PM »

Before the lockdown and political-comment-removal, someone (I think it was empirestate?) wondered if NYSDOT might put a hold on some sort of program they have to rebuild intersections into T-intersections as a result of this crash.

I doubt that will be case.  T-intersections are safer than skewed-angle intersections.  There's quite a bit of literature within TRB and FHWA on the subject.
Yes, but this is about proactive vs reactive approach.
Something happened after conversion to right angle T means conversion was bad.
My opinion is that conversion  is most likely irrelevant to what happened. But this is not bureaucratic way of thinking....
Logged

PHLBOS

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6559
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Greater Philly, PA
  • Last Login: Today at 12:06:50 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2018, 02:38:29 PM »

NYS class E (taxi-limo) license allows operation up to 14 pax. With 17 or 18 people in the limo, it should be a CDL driver only.

The national definition I have read says that up to or including 15 passengers (and 1 driver) does not need a CDL.  Above 15 passengers needs a CDL with P endorsement.
I believe that 15 number includes the driver.  Such is the main reason why the maximum seating capacity for full-size passenger vans sold at dealers or rented out at rental car/van agencies is set at such. 

Back in the 70s, Ford (other makes may have done similar) offered a 16-occupant variant of its Club Wagon van (mainly for school bus configurations) but dropped it due to the varying maximum occupant vehicle capacity requirements.  Prior to the national CDL that took effect in 1986, several states set their own requirements.
Logged
GPS does NOT equal GOD

abefroman329

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3151
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Chicago
  • Last Login: April 29, 2019, 05:55:26 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2018, 02:58:38 PM »

NYS class E (taxi-limo) license allows operation up to 14 pax. With 17 or 18 people in the limo, it should be a CDL driver only.

The national definition I have read says that up to or including 15 passengers (and 1 driver) does not need a CDL.  Above 15 passengers needs a CDL with P endorsement.
I believe that 15 number includes the driver.  Such is the main reason why the maximum seating capacity for full-size passenger vans sold at dealers or rented out at rental car/van agencies is set at such. 

Back in the 70s, Ford (other makes may have done similar) offered a 16-occupant variant of its Club Wagon van (mainly for school bus configurations) but dropped it due to the varying maximum occupant vehicle capacity requirements.  Prior to the national CDL that took effect in 1986, several states set their own requirements.
Yes, you are right, 15 including the driver.
Logged

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10233
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: July 22, 2019, 12:36:42 PM
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Stephane Dumas

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1854
  • Last Login: Today at 08:24:51 AM
Logged

roadman

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 3671
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Last Login: Today at 12:31:37 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2018, 05:00:03 PM »

AP via Washington Post: A look at limo crash victims: Veteran died on 34th birthday

N.Y. Times: The Hidden Dangers of Riding in a Stretch Limousine

And these limos aren't built like the limousines of the past like the Cadillac Fleetwood 75 limousine or that 1969 Imperial for example.  https://www.imcdb.org/vehicles_make-Cadillac_model-Fleetwood+75.html http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1969/1969HopeLimo/1969BobHopeLimo.htm
 

In the early 1980s, I often saw an unique stretch limo in Revere when I was going to and from Logan Airport.  The car was built from the bodies of several 1975 Buick Century sedans.  To this day, it's probably one of the scariest vehicles I've ever seen on the road.
Logged
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2816
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 10:16:08 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2018, 09:36:45 PM »

NYS class E (taxi-limo) license allows operation up to 14 pax. With 17 or 18 people in the limo, it should be a CDL driver only.

The national definition I have read says that up to or including 15 passengers (and 1 driver) does not need a CDL.  Above 15 passengers needs a CDL with P endorsement.
I believe that 15 number includes the driver.  Such is the main reason why the maximum seating capacity for full-size passenger vans sold at dealers or rented out at rental car/van agencies is set at such. 

Back in the 70s, Ford (other makes may have done similar) offered a 16-occupant variant of its Club Wagon van (mainly for school bus configurations) but dropped it due to the varying maximum occupant vehicle capacity requirements.  Prior to the national CDL that took effect in 1986, several states set their own requirements.
So on a license situation: driver did have CDL, but didn't have bus endorsement on it; Was previously ticketed for exact that problem and told not to operate as commercial driver until issue is rectified.
Other previous  problems with the limo inspection: 25% brakes not functioning, brakes line not attached and can come in contact with rotating tire.
Logged

seicer

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1267
  • Last Login: Today at 10:48:56 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2018, 09:45:40 PM »

Yikes. Based on recent reports, pretty much 75% or so of the fleet was unserviceable to be on the road. Lucky for us, the owner of the company happens to be in Pakistan right now, so good luck getting him back to the states.
Logged

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2816
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 10:16:08 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2018, 09:52:10 PM »

Yikes. Based on recent reports, pretty much 75% or so of the fleet was unserviceable to be on the road. Lucky for us, the owner of the company happens to be in Pakistan right now, so good luck getting him back to the states.
His son was running the business and looks like he is around. Not sure why owner being elsewhere is a luck, though. I would love to hear if FBI-related past has anything to do with him plainly ignoring each and every law without consequencies.
Logged

empirestate

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4122
  • Last Login: July 22, 2019, 08:45:10 PM
    • Empire State Roads
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2018, 12:56:17 AM »

Before the lockdown and political-comment-removal, someone (I think it was empirestate?) wondered if NYSDOT might put a hold on some sort of program they have to rebuild intersections into T-intersections as a result of this crash.

I doubt that will be case.  T-intersections are safer than skewed-angle intersections.  There's quite a bit of literature within TRB and FHWA on the subject.

Perhaps, but people are saying otherwise. These days, that tends to have a greater observable effect on policy decisions than factual relevance.

(Also, of course, there will be certain specific T-intersections that are less safe than certain other skewed junctions. That may or may not be the case here, but whatever the case would be proven by the specifics of the intersection, not by the fact that one type is safer in general.)
Logged

mgk920

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3362
  • Location: Appleton, WI USA
  • Last Login: Today at 10:10:10 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2018, 10:32:37 AM »

Wow, just wow. This is absolutely appalling. Is there anything on NY 30 at NY 7 instructing thru/truck traffic to turn right on NY 7?

Seems like the best solution would be to route NY 30 along existing NY 7 to NY 30A, and then truncate NY 30A to NY 7. Removing that segment of NY 30 from the State Highway system can't hurt. Also, NY 30 directly interchanging with I-88 can't hurt either. It actually makes a lot more sense than having the interchange with NY 30A.

I would fully agree with removing that part of NY 30 from the state highway system, turning it over to the lowest level of local governance in that area to be a local road.  It should not be a state highway.

Mike
Logged

PHLBOS

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6559
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Greater Philly, PA
  • Last Login: Today at 12:06:50 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2018, 10:39:08 AM »

And these limos aren't built like the limousines of the past like the Cadillac Fleetwood 75 limousine or that 1969 Imperial for example. 
https://www.imcdb.org/vehicles_make-Cadillac_model-Fleetwood+75.html
http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1969/1969HopeLimo/1969BobHopeLimo.htm
That Fleetwood 75 was a factory-built limo whereas that '69 Imperial was an aftermarket stretch (much like today's limos).

Today, I don't believe there are any factory-built limos being made in/for the US market.  The last ones, at least in the US, were the 1987 FWD-based Fleetwood 75 and the FWD/K-car based 1986 Chrylser Executive

All of them now are aftermarket stretches/mods to existing sedans/SUVs/CUVs.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:41:30 AM by PHLBOS »
Logged
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 3671
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Last Login: Today at 12:31:37 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2018, 11:01:11 AM »

Other previous  problems with the limo inspection: 25% brakes not functioning, brakes line not attached and can come in contact with rotating tire.

I had heard the problem that triggered the inspection failure was with the ABS sensors, and not the service brakes themselves.
Logged
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.