Why the US can't Build Infrastructure

[vdeane]

This article from Politico uses the Penn Station project in NYC as a case study for why the US isn't good at building infrastructure these days.  The short version is, we reacted to urban freeways plowing through neighborhoods to the point that it's now next to impossible for government to muster the power to build even projects that are very much needed.

The story of Penn Station's halting redevelopment comes in three separate waves of effort that rose up to replace the current squalor – and then, in the first two cases, crumbled into nothing. Pundits and editorials have tended to blame a rotating cast of characters for the rot – the railroad that owns the station, the state bureaucracies that have neglected it, the private real estate interests that have hemmed it in. But Penn Station has actually languished at the hands of another simple reality: No one has the leverage to fix it. The sad state of America's most important train station stems more from a failure of power than a failure of leadership. And shockingly enough, that's not by mistake – it's by design.

The roadblocks that prevent projects like Penn Station from quick completion were erected after a quiet but enormously consequential shift in progressive thinking – a transformation that began in the 1960s and still reverberates today. For the previous century, reformers ranging from Teddy Roosevelt to Woodrow Wilson had sought to combat the pernicious influence of political machines and corporate trusts by consolidating public power in the hands of expert technocrats, men (and, to be clear, they were mostly white men) driven to pursue the broader public interest. But by the early 1970s, the old progressive vision had shattered. No single event may have pointed the new way more clearly than the publication, mere months before Richard Nixon's resignation, of Robert Caro's "The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York."

Caro's 45-year-old masterpiece, which went on to win the Pulitzer Prize, is often billed as a biography of New York's most important 20th-century builder, an unelected official who remade the city's landscape between the mid-1920s and the late 1960s. But the 1,296-page book was also an indictment of government power that has since become a core tenet of progressive thinking. Since the 1970s, even as progressives have championed Big Government, they've worked tirelessly to put new checks on its power – to pull it away from imperious technocrats who might use government to bulldoze hapless communities. And it's that impulse to protect the powerless from the abuse of public power that is most responsible for the morass that is Penn Station.

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2019/12/01/politico-magazine-this-is-why-your-holiday-travel-is-awful-1230067

[Beltway]

This article from Politico uses the Penn Station project in NYC as a case study for why the US isn't good at building infrastructure these days.  The short version is, we reacted to urban freeways plowing through neighborhoods to the point that it's now next to impossible for government to muster the power to build even projects that are very much needed.

I think you mean East Side Access, which will (some day) connect the LI RR to Grand Central Station.  Massive delays, massive cost overruns.

Then there is the unbuilt Hudson River parallel railroad tunnel.

This is largely a NYC problem, largely not a USA problem.

[Beltway]

East Side Access is a public works project under construction by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) in New York City, which will extend the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) from its Main Line in Queens into a new station under Grand Central Terminal on Manhattan's East Side.  The new station and tunnels are tentatively scheduled to start service in December 2022, some 15 years behind schedule. 

The project's estimated construction cost has risen nearly threefold from the planned $3.5 billion to $11.1 billion as of April 2018, making it one of the world's most expensive underground rail-construction projects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Side_Access

[Chris]

This is not solely a U.S. problem. The UK doesn't seem to get much off the ground either, and for example Switzerland - one of the wealthiest countries in the world - has extremely slow progress with the development of much needed infrastructure.

German projects are also extremely slow, though they do plan and start a lot of projects, but these are mired in bureaucracy and outdated processes.

And if you are interested in extremely overpriced projects, New York is an obvious example, but also... Australia. Their price tags for road projects are mind-boggling and not exclusively in dense urban areas.

[kalvado]

Blaming roads is like blaming current president - damned if they do something and damned if they don't.
How about recognizing that there is ALWAYS a downside of EVERY action?

[ozarkman417]

German projects are also extremely slow, though they do plan and start a lot of projects, but these are mired in bureaucracy and outdated processes.

When it comes to slow German projects, there is one that always comes to mind... the Berlin-Brandenburg Airport. Recently, an announcement was made saying it will open on Halloween in 2020. IMO, given the frequent delays in the past, I think this will probably not be the final opening date.   

[Rothman]

That monstrosity will never open.  Part of it probably needs to be rehabbed since it has been so long since originally started.

[sprjus4]

German projects are also extremely slow, though they do plan and start a lot of projects, but these are mired in bureaucracy and outdated processes.

When it comes to slow German projects, there is one that always comes to mind... the Berlin-Brandenburg Airport. Recently, an announcement was made saying it will open on Halloween in 2020. IMO, given the frequent delays in the past, I think this will probably not be the final opening date.

In Year 2050, they'll be saying it'll open by Christmas.

[kphoger]

Blaming roads is like blaming current president - damned if they do something and damned if they don't.
How about recognizing that there is ALWAYS a downside of EVERY action?

Wow, where was NE2 with a reply to that?  He really dropped the ball...

[vdeane]

This article from Politico uses the Penn Station project in NYC as a case study for why the US isn't good at building infrastructure these days.  The short version is, we reacted to urban freeways plowing through neighborhoods to the point that it's now next to impossible for government to muster the power to build even projects that are very much needed.

I think you mean East Side Access, which will (some day) connect the LI RR to Grand Central Station.  Massive delays, massive cost overruns.

Then there is the unbuilt Hudson River parallel railroad tunnel.

This is largely a NYC problem, largely not a USA problem.

The article keeps talking about Penn Station, so that's what I'm going with.

It's not just an NYC problem, though it does happen disproportionately often there.  I can think of several cases of similar things happening upstate.  Out of state, just look at the Champlain Parkway in Vermont, or the Gordie Howe Bridge between Detroit and Windsor.

[Beltway]

The Gordie Howe Bridge between Detroit and Windsor is not just out of state but also half in another country, Canada.

That is pretty complex building a $3 billion bridge that is large enough to cross a shipping channel between two countries, getting all the approvals and right-of-way and funding elements.

[vdeane]

The Gordie Howe Bridge between Detroit and Windsor is not just out of state but also half in another country, Canada.

That is pretty complex building a $3 billion bridge that is large enough to cross a shipping channel between two countries, getting all the approvals and right-of-way and funding elements.

And it would have been built years ago if it weren't for Michigan and CBP not wanting to pay for their parts of the project or Mr. Mouron obstructing the thing at every turn.  None of the delays have been on the part of Canada.

Another fun one: the Inter County Connector in Maryland.

[Beltway]

The Gordie Howe Bridge between Detroit and Windsor is not just out of state but also half in another country, Canada.
That is pretty complex building a $3 billion bridge that is large enough to cross a shipping channel between two countries, getting all the approvals and right-of-way and funding elements.

And it would have been built years ago if it weren't for Michigan and CBP not wanting to pay for their parts of the project or Mr. Mouron obstructing the thing at every turn.  None of the delays have been on the part of Canada.

Just a very low priority for Canada.

[vdeane]

Oh, Michigan never cooperated.  Not sure about CBP.  Canada just decided to do the project anyways and withhold Michigan's share of the toll revenue until their part of the project is paid back.  What was ultimately the deciding factor was when the Mourons lost in court enough times that the project could finally move forward.

And yet another example: every Breezewood in PA, past and present, as well as the I-95 connection.

[kalvado]

One could say Texas is where things are moving, but how many times HSR was planned between major TX cities?

[Beltway]

An international megaproject is not a good example, in any case.

Besides, the city of Detroit has its own severe economic and population decline problems.

[vdeane]

One could argue that the fact that building a bridge across a river is considered a "megaproject" is itself a symptom of how much harder it is to build things now than it used to be.

[kalvado]

One could argue that the fact that building a bridge across a river is considered a "megaproject" is itself a symptom of how much harder it is to build things now than it used to be.

Bingo!
I like how Thruway was built in about 2 years, and it took almost longer to rebuild 23-24 stretch

[Rothman]

One could say Texas is where things are moving, but how many times HSR was planned between major TX cities?

That's the perception, but something is very amiss in Texas, where they risked losing $1B in federal apportionment due to the legislated recission due to lack of obligation.  Whichever congressperson slipped the repeal of the recission into whichever bill it was a few weeks ago saved their hide.

[kalvado]

One could say Texas is where things are moving, but how many times HSR was planned between major TX cities?

That's the perception, but something is very amiss in Texas, where they risked losing $1B in federal apportionment due to the legislated recission due to lack of obligation.  Whichever congressperson slipped the repeal of the recission into whichever bill it was a few weeks ago saved their hide.

Can you try that again? Just pretend you are talking to an idiot, and try again. 

[Rothman]

One could say Texas is where things are moving, but how many times HSR was planned between major TX cities?

That's the perception, but something is very amiss in Texas, where they risked losing $1B in federal apportionment due to the legislated recission due to lack of obligation.  Whichever congressperson slipped the repeal of the recission into whichever bill it was a few weeks ago saved their hide.

Can you try that again? Just pretend you are talking to an idiot, and try again.

Texas left $1B on the table even when they knew the Feds could take it away.

[Beltway]

One could argue that the fact that building a bridge across a river is considered a "megaproject" is itself a symptom of how much harder it is to build things now than it used to be.

In that case the bridge would be 1.6 miles long and 180 feet of vertical clearance and a cable-stayed bridge with a main span of 2,800 feet which will span the whole river, and 6 lanes wide.

Yeah, that is a megaproject.

[Duke87]

One could argue that the fact that building a bridge across a river is considered a "megaproject" is itself a symptom of how much harder it is to build things now than it used to be.

In that case the bridge would be 1.6 miles long and 180 feet of vertical clearance and a cable-stayed bridge with a main span of 2,800 feet which will span the whole river, and 6 lanes wide.

Yeah, that is a megaproject.

Then what is 200 miles of freeway of which such a bridge is only one component?

The argument here is that the threshold for what is considered "mega" is too low - and that if things functioned more smoothly construction of such a bridge would be small in scale compared to other things going on.

[Chris]

The Gerald Desmond Bridge in Long Beach, CA.

The contract was awarded in 2012 with an anticipated completion in 2016

Almost into 2020, the bridge is still under construction. And the contract was awarded for $ 649 million in 2012. The latest news now speaks of a $ 1.5 billion project.

[Beltway]

One could argue that the fact that building a bridge across a river is considered a "megaproject" is itself a symptom of how much harder it is to build things now than it used to be.

In that case the bridge would be 1.6 miles long and 180 feet of vertical clearance and a cable-stayed bridge with a main span of 2,800 feet which will span the whole river, and 6 lanes wide.
Yeah, that is a megaproject.

Then what is 200 miles of freeway of which such a bridge is only one component?

More like 8 miles of freeway built to connect the bridge into the freeway system.

The argument here is that the threshold for what is considered "mega" is too low - and that if things functioned more smoothly construction of such a bridge would be small in scale compared to other things going on.

The bridge and approach freeways above are "mega."

Is the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge not a "megaproject"?