The coronavirus is destroying everything

[NWI_Irish96]

It seems like we're not going to come to a concensus here.

If enough people think that because high school sports didn't benefit them personally they aren't important, no matter how many other people they benefitted, then yes, there will be no consensus.

[kphoger]

It seems like we're not going to come to a concensus here.

I didn't know that was the goal.  I just wanted to know people's opinions, so they can inform my own.  As far as that goes, this discussion has been a success.

[SEWIGuy]

"School sports get far too much emphasis compared to academics and the arts"

IS NOT EQUAL TO

"School sports shouldn't exist"

There are countless kids whose lives are literally saved by school sports. They provide motivation to achieve academically and an alternative to activities that tend to lead down very dark paths. Clubs can't effectively reach kids in very poor or very rural areas in the same way schools can, especially for a sport like football. It's fine to believe that your school's football team unfairly got a bunch of attention that musicians didn't get, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of kids whose lives are a lot better today because they had football in high school.

Well said.

[thspfc]

It seems like we're not going to come to a concensus here.

I didn't know that was the goal.  I just wanted to know people's opinions, so they can inform my own.  As far as that goes, this discussion has been a success.

Good to know we have someone who will listen to other people's thoughts without calling them an idiot or telling them they can't read.
Actually, only one person is doing that, what am I talking about.

[kphoger]

Actually, only one person is doing that, what am I talking about.

Let it go.  People are flawed.  Such is life.  No one is exempt.

[kphoger]

They provide motivation to achieve academically and an alternative to activities that tend to lead down very dark paths.

The 'motivation to achieve academically' is an angle I hadn't considered before this discussion.  My first reaction is It isn't the school system's job to motivate our children, that's the parents' job, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that statement.  I mean, we could offer cash prizes for good grades–and maybe even spend less tax money doing so–but that wouldn't make it right.  On the other hand, I don't disagree with offering perks for good grades, such as an extended lunch period or other benefits.  So I'm not sure where I land on that one.

As for alternative activities to those leading down dark paths, that could be achieved by community sports clubs, as already mentioned.

Organized sports being part of school means that, quite often, teachers have little recourse when their students miss class because of sports.  Lord help that last-period teacher who has six students leave school early every Thursday or Friday, who is still expected to ensure all students in the class receive the same level education.  That teacher cannot count their absence against them, because they "skipped class" for a school-sponsored event.  And, in a class that requires student interaction (such as foreign language), it negatively affects the rest of the students, not just the athletes' education.

Clubs can't effectively reach kids in very poor or very rural areas in the same way schools can, especially for a sport like football.

Can't or don't?  I've seen non-school sports clubs reach poor urban neighborhoods.  Rural is quite different, though.

I'd be interested to know what kind of penetration could be achieved by taking the tax money spent on school sports and funneling it into community sports clubs instead.  It might be that such poor and rural communities could be reached just as effectively.

[NWI_Irish96]

They provide motivation to achieve academically and an alternative to activities that tend to lead down very dark paths.

The 'motivation to achieve academically' is an angle I hadn't considered before this discussion.  My first reaction is It isn't the school system's job to motivate our children, that's the parents' job, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that statement.  I mean, we could offer cash prizes for good grades–and maybe even spend less tax money doing so–but that wouldn't make it right.  On the other hand, I don't disagree with offering perks for good grades, such as an extended lunch period or other benefits.  So I'm not sure where I land on that one.

As for alternative activities to those leading down dark paths, that could be achieved by community sports clubs, as already mentioned.

Organized sports being part of school means that, quite often, teachers have recourse when their students miss class because of sports.  Lord help that last-period teacher who has six students leave school early every Thursday or Friday, who is still expected to ensure all students in the class receive the same level education.  That teacher cannot count their absence against them, because they "skipped class" for a school-sponsored event.  And, in a class that requires student interaction (such as foreign language), it negatively affects the rest of the students, not just the athletes' education.

Clubs can't effectively reach kids in very poor or very rural areas in the same way schools can, especially for a sport like football.

Can't or don't?  I've seen non-school sports clubs reach poor urban neighborhoods.  Rural is quite different, though.

I'd be interested to know what kind of penetration could be achieved by taking the tax money spent on school sports and funneling it into community sports clubs instead.  It might be that such poor and rural communities could be reached just as effectively.

I'm not aware of massive amounts of tax dollars going into high school sports. At my high school, the facilities were capital projects but the equipment was paid for through revenue from tickets and concessions, and the facilities that were taxpayer financed were also available for public use.

Clubs have a harder time reaching kids than schools because you have the built-in advantage of the kids already being at school. You'll inevitably lose some kids when the parents have to shuffle them from school to the club and then later back to home. Also, you might have some sports clubs that care about how the kids are doing socially and academically, but they aren't obligated to. That is also built in with school sports.

[kphoger]

I'm not aware of massive amounts of tax dollars going into high school sports.

Notwithstanding coaches' salaries, presumably.

Of course, it's possible that community clubs' coaches would need to be paid too, rather than on a volunteer basis.

[hbelkins]

If you're not interested in sports, then why would you even come to this thread?

Because he's interested in the virus. You know -- he's the guy who thinks we should all wear masks and live in fear and keep everything closed until there's a vaccine and everyone is forced under penalty of law to get the shot. And the title of this thread does start out with "The coronavirus..."

Anyway, my two cents on the topic of school-sponsored sports: holy crap, I agree with kphoger on something. I went to an extremely sports-focused high school, to the point that as you roll into town on the state highway there's city-posted signage–on a state highway!–touting the 1996 state football championship, and five state championships for the cheerleaders.

Well, if your native state is anything like Kentucky, you probably had a legislative body pass a resolution decreeing the posting of the signs on the state highway. You'll find a lot of those here; most placed on order of the state legislature (the state pays) or via a resolution by a local governing body requesting that the secretary of Transportation issue an order for the posting of the signs (the local government pays).

As for sports, and the discussion about how sporting accomplishments are often the best memories for some students, I did not play sports in school. I was (and remain) terribly uncoordinated and unathletic. I enjoyed playing basketball, and to a lesser extent softball, with friends, but I was never on an organized team. I was in high school band and in my senior year, on the school newspaper staff. We had an award-winning marching band despite my high school not having a football team. Not only did I go to all the practices, I helped to maintain the field we used for practice. Looking back on my scholastic days, I ask myself why I spent so much time with those activities. I don't look upon my school years with a lot of fondness or wistfulness or good memories, and academic and band awards were my strong point, but still, why did I waste so much time helping mow and stripe the field or staying after school for marching band practice? I don't think I really got a lot out of it. I can still read music but I haven't touched my saxophone in probably 35 years.

[jemacedo9]

Organized sports being part of school means that, quite often, teachers have recourse when their students miss class because of sports.  Lord help that last-period teacher who has six students leave school early every Thursday or Friday, who is still expected to ensure all students in the class receive the same level education.  That teacher cannot count their absence against them, because they "skipped class" for a school-sponsored event.  And, in a class that requires student interaction (such as foreign language), it negatively affects the rest of the students, not just the athletes' education.

The middle school that my son is in (and the high school as well) has the last period of the day set aside for "recap".  The kids go back to their homeroom and it's basically a study hall.  For kids who take elective classes like band, extra art, etc; that is scheduled in that period.  Early dismissals for sports only affect that period.  Kids who may need extra help in a core subject can get a pass and go to that teacher.  A library pass is available also.  I think that effectively takes care of this problem. 

[kphoger]

Organized sports being part of school means that, quite often, teachers have recourse when their students miss class because of sports.  Lord help that last-period teacher who has six students leave school early every Thursday or Friday, who is still expected to ensure all students in the class receive the same level education.  That teacher cannot count their absence against them, because they "skipped class" for a school-sponsored event.  And, in a class that requires student interaction (such as foreign language), it negatively affects the rest of the students, not just the athletes' education.

The middle school that my son is in (and the high school as well) has the last period of the day set aside for "recap".  The kids go back to their homeroom and it's basically a study hall.  For kids who take elective classes like band, extra art, etc; that is scheduled in that period.  Early dismissals for sports only affect that period.  Kids who may need extra help in a core subject can get a pass and go to that teacher.  A library pass is available also.  I think that effectively takes care of this problem. 

(1)  So electives can only be offered during one period?  That won't work for every school.

(2)  It sounds like students who are otherwise done with their classes and don't need extra help are held captive in "recap" instead of being free to go home.

[jemacedo9]

Organized sports being part of school means that, quite often, teachers have recourse when their students miss class because of sports.  Lord help that last-period teacher who has six students leave school early every Thursday or Friday, who is still expected to ensure all students in the class receive the same level education.  That teacher cannot count their absence against them, because they "skipped class" for a school-sponsored event.  And, in a class that requires student interaction (such as foreign language), it negatively affects the rest of the students, not just the athletes' education.

The middle school that my son is in (and the high school as well) has the last period of the day set aside for "recap".  The kids go back to their homeroom and it's basically a study hall.  For kids who take elective classes like band, extra art, etc; that is scheduled in that period.  Early dismissals for sports only affect that period.  Kids who may need extra help in a core subject can get a pass and go to that teacher.  A library pass is available also.  I think that effectively takes care of this problem. 

(1)  So electives can only be offered during one period?  That won't work for every school.

(2)  It sounds like students who are otherwise done with their classes and don't need extra help are held captive in "recap" instead of being free to go home.

#1 - no, electives are offered in other periods also.
#2 - and also done with their homework; but yes, that is correct. 

[kphoger]

For kids who take elective classes like band, extra art, etc; that is scheduled in that period.

electives are offered in other periods also.

Now I'm confused.

[jemacedo9]

For kids who take elective classes like band, extra art, etc; that is scheduled in that period.

electives are offered in other periods also.

Now I'm confused.

Core classes are offered 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th period
5th period, list of electives that kids have to choose between that rotate halfway through the year.
Then 8th period, the recap, is another opportunity to take a second one.  Or leave that open if they are involved in sports.  Band is only offered in 8th period as well, as I believe a few others that have after-school practices (choir?).  If left open, it can be a free form study hall in their homeroom, or they can get passes to go to the library or another teachers room for specific help.

[mgk920]

In many/most places in the 'private sports club' World, there are P.E. classes and intramural sports leagues in the schools, just not games against teams from other schools.  Those are the realm of the clubs, they play for the community.

Mike

[GaryV]

the giant parachute that didn't really accomplish much other than being fun.

  I remember that!

I only went to public school for a few years, and in a completely different generation than you guys, but I remember that to! I guess it was a staple!

Must have been invented in the last 40 years or so, because I DON'T remember that.

What I do remember is having little 4-wheel scooters about 12x12 inches and about 6" high.  There were about 8 of them, 4 per team, and we'd scoot around kicking a ball toward the goal line.

We should be finding out any time now what the coronavirus's effect is one the rest of the fall HS sports.  Football has already been moved to the spring.  A lot of the schools around here are starting virtual.

[kphoger]

In many/most places in the 'private sports club' World, there are P.E. classes and intramural sports leagues in the schools, just not games against teams from other schools.  Those are the realm of the clubs, they play for the community.

Which makes total sense to me.

[Scott5114]

Most collegiate athletes recieve a free education. And if I was a college athlete, I wouldn't really care about extra money. The experience would make up for it.

Either this is a lie, or you'll change your mind about it when you're in college.  There's a reason why there's a stereotype of college students living on ramen...

(For me, it was Campbell's soup, because I hadn't learned you could make ramen in the microwave yet; my dorm had no stove. I ate so much Campbell's chicken noodle soup in my one year of college that I haven't touched it in the twelve years since.)

There was no such thing as men's cross country, because the school wanted to prevent potential football players from joining a different sport.

I never thought about that as being a reason why some sports were weirdly absent at my school. I'd always assumed it was just because we were a small, rural school and there was no interest. It's kind of a shame, since I might have been interested in competitive swimming if they'd offered it.

During that time (the early 1990s), it was rare for the opposing team to score more than 14 points, yet it was also rare for our team to score fewer than 60 points.

My school was never quite that good, though we could always count on making the playoffs, and usually making a pretty deep run. The most notable game in my mind was on Saturday, September 15, 2001. It had been delayed from the usual Friday due to the September 11 attacks. It was an away game at a town in the same county as us. Our band director found out that the opposing school's band used the same arrangement of "The Star-Spangled Banner" as us, so arranged for us to join the opposing band to play as one in a show of unity after the attacks. I think they had some big flags brought in and held by some cheerleaders or something. It was very patriotic and kind of touching. It definitely felt like a special moment.

Then the football team took the field and defeated the home team 75—0.

All the sports teams had brand-new uniforms and equipment, but the music department had uniforms that our parents had worn and no budget for new instruments.

Our sports teams got new uniforms every two or three years or so. My first year in band, we had to buy our own from Hobby Lobby–a tuxedo shirt and black bow tie. Kids were expected to buy their own instruments, too. There were school loaner instruments, but they were pretty beat-up (and who knows how many kids' lips had been on them).

Later on, the school did end up investing in the band, so we managed to get real band uniforms (we kind of missed the tuxedo shirts since the band uniforms were way too hot in August and September and way too cold in October, November, or December). and a trailer to put the instruments in. It looks like it paid off, because Google Street View now shows a sign that wasn't there when I went to school, listing various band accomplishments posted right under the 1996 football one.

They provide motivation to achieve academically and an alternative to activities that tend to lead down very dark paths.

The 'motivation to achieve academically' is an angle I hadn't considered before this discussion.  My first reaction is It isn't the school system's job to motivate our children, that's the parents' job, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that statement.  I mean, we could offer cash prizes for good grades–and maybe even spend less tax money doing so–but that wouldn't make it right.  On the other hand, I don't disagree with offering perks for good grades, such as an extended lunch period or other benefits.  So I'm not sure where I land on that one.

My view is that it's the school system's job to provide a motivation to achieve academically, but providing an external motivation like sports (or perks) to do that is completely the wrong way of going about it. The problem is that you really end up providing motivation to get good grades, not to learn things. Which means that the honest motivated kids end up spending energy learning "here's how to parse the exact wording of test questions to successfully guess which answer is correct" (a thing we were actually taught in school), and the dishonest motivated kids learn how to cheat on tests, strongarm extra points out of the teacher, and pay poor kids to do their homework for them.

I got passing grades in high school math but learned jack shit.

Ideally, the motivation should be provided by illustrating how much easier life is when you're educated, and encouraging the little shot of serotonin you get when you learn something new. That way the act of learning itself is what's motivated. How do you do that? I dunno, I didn't major in education in college. But I think that the modern school system is so focused on grades that it can't see the forest for the trees anymore.

Clubs can't effectively reach kids in very poor or very rural areas in the same way schools can, especially for a sport like football.

Can't or don't?  I've seen non-school sports clubs reach poor urban neighborhoods.  Rural is quite different, though.

I'd be interested to know what kind of penetration could be achieved by taking the tax money spent on school sports and funneling it into community sports clubs instead.  It might be that such poor and rural communities could be reached just as effectively.

Honestly, I think a community league run by a city parks department could potentially reach kids better than the school system, because it wouldn't have to filter the students into teams by school district boundaries. Inner-city schools in poor areas may not have the budget for equipment and staffing that a school in a rich area might have, so if the teams corresponding to those schools play each other, it'd be misbalanced as hell.

If you do randomly-assigned teams from all the players in the city, you might have a quarterback living on SNAP benefits throwing to a receiver who lives in a mansion. Message goes out to the kids: working with people different than you is possible.

There's also the benefit that you can have theoretically infinite numbers of teams (subject to funding/space constraints, of course), so a kid who wants to learn how to play doesn't get shut out because he happened to go to a school with a really good program that only accepts the best out of the best.

Obviously, this model wouldn't work in a place like Atwood, Kansas, where an individual town has enough players to field no more than one or two teams. But you could set up a similar program on a county level, or even a multi-county district. It just wouldn't be tied to schools. A player from Atwood could have teammates from Colby or Oberlin.

[kphoger]

Obviously, this model wouldn't work in a place like Atwood, Kansas, where an individual town has enough players to field no more than one or two teams. But you could set up a similar program on a county level, or even a multi-county district. It just wouldn't be tied to schools. A player from Atwood could have teammates from Colby or Oberlin.

You're only thinking football.

Atwood has a (concrete) tennis court.  Tennis courts are super-cheap to build and maintain, racquets and balls are relatively cheap, and plenty of doubles and singles could compete in even a small town.

Atwood has a bowling alley.  Youth bowling leagues could be a thing.   Actually, scratch that.  It looks like the bowling alley closed down since I lived there.

Atwood has a swimming pool.  (It's where I spent every summer afternoon as a kid.)

Beyond that, there are sports that would involve more personal investment by competitors, such as cycling or rodeo or sharpshooting or whatever.

[Scott5114]

That's a fair point–football is way more resource-intensive than most other sports. It's just the one that got the most emphasis in my town (and most small towns, it feels like).

You could absolutely build a sports center that has a few basketball and tennis courts, an indoor Olympic-size pool, and a few bowling lanes, and run a municipal league for all of those sports out of that. The issue would simply be whether there was enough interest to make a league for each of those sports viable.

Of course, the benefit of all of that being done at the municipal level is that non-students can use the facilities too, when they're not being used for league practices or play.

[webny99]

Atwood has a swimming pool.  (It's where I spent every summer afternoon as a kid.)

Even the town where my mom grew up, which is about 1/3 of the size of Atwood, has a public swimming pool.
They call it the "city pool" at the "city park". I always have to chuckle at that. Apparently, in North Dakota, if you can see multiple other houses without squinting, it's a city.

[jeffandnicole]

I always think of Tennis Courts as saying "Hey, look, we've giving you something that everyone can use, no matter what age level you are!", and then you can drive by and rarely see people using them.  It's just not a sport that people are really keen on playing. 

Pickleball is picking up some steam due to the fact that you can fit 2 of them in the same size as a tennis court, and allows for more favorable playing action.

Swimming pools are great...in the summer...on nice days...for 8 hours of those days.  For much of the country, they're useless the other 9 months out of the year.  And the expense and liability is thru the roof...even when the pool is closed.

And honestly, I'm not picking on those sports and activities, because EVERY sport and activity has its plusses and minuses.   Communities choosing one over another allows them to give people options on where they want to live, and where they want to play.  So there's no right or wrong in what is chosen...as long as the option remains in good, usable condition.

[Scott5114]

Swimming pools are great...in the summer...on nice days...for 8 hours of those days.  For much of the country, they're useless the other 9 months out of the year.  And the expense and liability is thru the roof...even when the pool is closed.

Which is why community swimming pools should be built indoors, so you can still use them during the winter or after dark. The problem is that when a lot of muncipal pools were built, they were seen as a fun summer diversion for the kids to splash around in. They weren't intended for competitive sports or as an exercise facility. Naturally, if swimming is to be used as part of an exercise regimen, it needs to be available year-round.

A lot of commercial gyms have a pool that can be used for that purpose, but the dues for those gyms tend not to be very affordable.

[mgk920]

There was no such thing as men's cross country, because the school wanted to prevent potential football players from joining a different sport.

I never thought about that as being a reason why some sports were weirdly absent at my school. I'd always assumed it was just because we were a small, rural school and there was no interest. It's kind of a shame, since I might have been interested in competitive swimming if they'd offered it.

Also remember the tenets of Title IX.  Football is not exempt from those 'stock the teams by the numbers' rules, so many minor mens' sports were dropped by high schools and universities to keep the required gender balance.

Mike

[Scott5114]

It's not like we used to have swimming. There was never a pool on campus. Lacrosse and soccer were also never a thing, male or female.

I don't think that we would have had a gender-balance issue, since girls' basketball, slow-pitch softball, and fast-pitch softball were all very successful, usually more successful than the equivalent boys' teams.