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Author Topic: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways  (Read 4164 times)

JoePCool14

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Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« on: December 03, 2020, 04:18:40 PM »

Here's an interesting video from Road Guy Rob on the history of Phoenix freeways that just went up yesterday.


I'm not from Phoenix, but I have visited a couple times, and I really enjoyed the freeways there. Hearing this history was pretty cool and I thought he did a pretty good job with it.

He also mentioned the situation in Tucson which I found rather amusing.
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2020, 08:58:45 PM »

Already posted in the Arizona thread.
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JoePCool14

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 09:43:20 AM »

Already posted in the Arizona thread.

Whoops, my bad. Mods, feel free to lock this if you'd like.
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 04:08:28 PM »

It draws more attention here, and if you have a stake in this, it's a good watch.
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2021, 12:19:19 AM »

Here's an interesting video from Road Guy Rob on the history of Phoenix freeways that just went up yesterday.


I'm not from Phoenix, but I have visited a couple times, and I really enjoyed the freeways there. Hearing this history was pretty cool and I thought he did a pretty good job with it.

He also mentioned the situation in Tucson which I found rather amusing.

Too bad he didnít go over why loop 101/loop 202 didnít connect at the west end
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DJStephens

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2021, 09:48:22 PM »

Here's an interesting video from Road Guy Rob on the history of Phoenix freeways that just went up yesterday.


I'm not from Phoenix, but I have visited a couple times, and I really enjoyed the freeways there. Hearing this history was pretty cool and I thought he did a pretty good job with it.

He also mentioned the situation in Tucson which I found rather amusing.

Too bad he didnít go over why loop 101/loop 202 didnít connect at the west end

Generally Arizona has had good decision-making and design standards.  The "disconnnect" of Loop 101/202 on the west side, was a blunder, however.  Am of opinion that 101 should have been placed further W in the beginning (mid eighties), and the two connected, later.   
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Zonie

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2021, 03:49:31 PM »

You have a couple of obstacles that constrained a west side 101/202 connection:

- Most of Tolleson would have been wiped off the map
- Angling the freeway north and west would have likely crossed Gila River Reservation lands; this tribe fought the Pecos alignment as it was
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DJStephens

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2021, 04:05:36 PM »

Am aware of the controversies.   Just saying - if 101 had been located - a bit farther W during the planning process, a route S of 10 could have missed Tolleson to it's W.   Maybe even making 303 superfluous and unnecessary.  Loop construction can only help the tribes in the medium/long term, by providing greater access and mobility for tribe members and providing freeway access/interchanges for casinos.   
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SkyPesos

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2021, 04:13:40 PM »

Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2021, 04:42:11 PM »

Believe it was arbitrary, nothing else.  Uncertainty on where it would go, southward, and for how long a distance.  Most likely, it will not be extended to the SSW, to head in the direction of tiny Gila Bend. 
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rte66man

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2021, 06:40:28 PM »

Believe it was arbitrary, nothing else.  Uncertainty on where it would go, southward, and for how long a distance.  Most likely, it will not be extended to the SSW, to head in the direction of tiny Gila Bend. 

No point in extending towards Gila Bend as AZ85 parallels it closely and could be easily converted to a freeway.
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2021, 05:38:32 PM »

Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.



When Loop 303 was first built, it was just a two lane road with some four lane segments. 100 was added to all the mileage numbers around the time the northern section was getting built (Happy Valley Pkwy to I-17).
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kernals12

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2021, 10:06:09 AM »

Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.


I believe the plan is to extend it to the future Interstate 11.
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kernals12

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2021, 10:19:48 AM »

You have a couple of obstacles that constrained a west side 101/202 connection:

- Most of Tolleson would have been wiped off the map
- Angling the freeway north and west would have likely crossed Gila River Reservation lands; this tribe fought the Pecos alignment as it was

Actually, it was simpler than that, having it meet 101 would've cost more.

https://apps.azdot.gov/files/projects/south-mtn/final-eis/smfeis_ch_3_alternatives.pdf

As you can see on page 3-59, the choice of 59th street saved $600 million over the 101 alignments, due to lower ROW acquisition costs.
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2021, 12:26:13 PM »

Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.


They aren't sure where the exact final point will be, and thus didn't want to "guess" at the mile markers and then have to change them later. So they just set it to 100 so they know they have a maximum of 100 miles of extension (we know it will never see that full 100) without having to change any of the existing mile markers.
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DJStephens

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2021, 07:44:14 PM »

Seems it might? make more sense to have Loop 303 turn to the E, and pass by Maricopa, which has seen significant growth in recent years.   
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kernals12

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2021, 09:47:12 AM »

Seems it might? make more sense to have Loop 303 turn to the E, and pass by Maricopa, which has seen significant growth in recent years.

That's what Interstate 11 is for
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2021, 08:49:17 PM »

Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60.  Sorry, just my opinion. 
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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2021, 08:51:52 PM »

Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60.  Sorry, just my opinion.
It would still have utility even if it curved due south to connect with Interstate 10.

Terminating I-11 at Wickenburg would leave a blatant gap in the system. Continuing onto I-10 would allow motorists to then transfer to I-10 East heading into Phoenix. There is most certainly utility.
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kernals12

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2021, 09:11:13 PM »

Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60.  Sorry, just my opinion.

The Howard Hughes company just bought land in Buckeye which is planned to one day be home to 300,000 people. The entirety of Buckeye is zoned for 1.5 million people! A city of such size needs a freeway.

And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2021, 09:24:26 PM »

And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
The South Mountain Freeway part of AZ 202 opened not that long ago, and was built for I-10 traffic bypassing Phoenix. Also, a good portion of I-10 between 202 and Casa Grande is still 4 lanes, maybe widen that before building a parallel freeway?

Also, didn't you say on Reddit a couple of times that Phoenix "paved its way out of congestion"? If that's the case, they don't need new freeways through the middle of nowhere then.
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kernals12

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2021, 09:33:16 PM »

And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
The South Mountain Freeway part of AZ 202 opened not that long ago, and was built for I-10 traffic bypassing Phoenix. Also, a good portion of I-10 between 202 and Casa Grande is still 4 lanes, maybe widen that before building a parallel freeway?

Also, didn't you say on Reddit a couple of times that Phoenix "paved its way out of congestion"? If that's the case, they don't need new freeways through the middle of nowhere then.

The Phoenix are has enough freeways for its current population of 5 million, it does not have enough for its projected future population of 7-8 million
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KeithE4Phx

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM »

Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60.  Sorry, just my opinion.
It would still have utility even if it curved due south to connect with Interstate 10.

Terminating I-11 at Wickenburg would leave a blatant gap in the system. Continuing onto I-10 would allow motorists to then transfer to I-10 East heading into Phoenix. There is most certainly utility.

I-11 will likely terminate at I-8 near Gila Bend, with the southern leg being either the current AZ 85, or an extension of the Loop 303.  There is no need whatsoever to extend it past that. 

Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however.  Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away.  Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93.  Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM »

Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however.  Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away.  Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93.  Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
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KeithE4Phx

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Re: Road Guy Rob on the History of Phoenix Freeways
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2021, 10:19:16 PM »

Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however.  Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away.  Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93.  Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.

If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.

I agree 100%.  There are lots of at-grade ranch turnoffs on I-40 across Texas.  Unfortunately, there are those who think that any at-grade intersection on an Interstate highway violates the "rules."  I don't think I-11 gets built south of I-40 without them.
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