Snow Melt System Being Funded by the EU

[kernals12]

A Scandinavian company claims to have developed a better snow melt system. It uses heated metallic ribbons embedded in the asphalt and is able work completely autonomously, activating specific areas once snow or ice is detected. They say it works at temperatures as low as -50 degrees Celsius and can clear snow in just 15 minutes. They have received 2.4 million euros from the EU to develop it, and they say commercialization will occur in 2021, but I'm guessing it'll have to wait for very low cost solar energy before it is cost effective

This would:
Eliminate the cost of snow plows
Eliminate the need for road salt, which is a major source of water pollution
Keep the roads free of snow and ice around the clock, greatly improving safety and preventing traffic snarls, and also eliminating the need for all wheel drive or snow tires (or all season tires for that matter)
Reduce freeze thaw cycles, allowing the asphalt to last longer
Add significant amounts of heat to the environment, making winters milder

[Brandon]

Does it work on snow like this?


Photo by ais_t: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ais_t/8490134052

This is Houghton, Michigan in the winter, all 220 inches of the white stuff per year.

[kernals12]

Does it work on snow like this?


Photo by ais_t: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ais_t/8490134052

This is Houghton, Michigan in the winter, all 220 inches of the white stuff per year.

They say it works at temperatures of -58 fahrenheit.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

How much would it cost to implement for thousands of miles of American roads?

Perhaps only the most vital/dangerous winter roads get them?

Should places like Dallas and Atlanta bother with them for the occasional freak ice storm?

[1995hoo]

....

Add significant amounts of heat to the environment, making winters milder

....

I call BS on anyone who thinks the EU would ever have that as a goal.

With that said, heating elements could be extremely useful on elevated highways and significant overpasses in some areas.

[SEWIGuy]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

[kernals12]

....

Add significant amounts of heat to the environment, making winters milder

....

I call BS on anyone who thinks the EU would ever have that as a goal.

With that said, heating elements could be extremely useful on elevated highways and significant overpasses in some areas.

It may not be their goal, but it would be a positive side effect.

[kernals12]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

[seicer]

I love it when someone develops an over-engineered "solution" when they are absurdly cost-inefficient or something that can't be maintained within a realm of possibility. Remember when we were going to replace reflectors with LED lights (that didn't last a season)? Charge electric cars with solar panels embedded in the asphalt (which was only a trial in some rest area and abandoned not long after)?

Salt may be a killer for waterways and the environment, but mixing it with other elements - such as beet juice, can reduce its impact. Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

[kernals12]

I love it when someone develops an over-engineered "solution" when they are absurdly cost-inefficient or something that can't be maintained within a realm of possibility.

They sell snow melt systems for driveways and parking lots.

Salt may be a killer for waterways and the environment, but mixing it with other elements - such as beet juice, can reduce its impact. Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

They also tear up the pavement and create noise.

[Brandon]

They say it works at temperatures of -58 fahrenheit.

I wasn't talking about temperature.  I'm talking about quantity.

[Brandon]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

You've never been to the Keweenaw Peninsula in the middle of winter, have you?


Photo courtesy of Gribblenation.

[kernals12]

They say it works at temperatures of -58 fahrenheit.

I wasn't talking about temperature.  I'm talking about quantity.

Quantity doesn't matter. It's the rate at which it falls that matters. Most commercial snow melt systems can handle 2 inches per hour, which covers the vast majority of snowstorms.

[kernals12]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

You've never been to the Keweenaw Peninsula in the middle of winter, have you?


Photo courtesy of Gribblenation.

I'm guessing all that snow doesn't fall at once.

[kernals12]

How much would it cost to implement for thousands of miles of American roads?

Perhaps only the most vital/dangerous winter roads get them?

Should places like Dallas and Atlanta bother with them for the occasional freak ice storm?

Roads get resurfaced all the time. Incorporating installation into normal maintenance schedules would probably reduce the net installation cost to near zero. The cost of electricity would be the real issue. We're going to have to wait for extremely low cost solar power later in the decade, possibly utilizing solar power satellites.

[kernals12]

And I'm not kidding about the weather impacts this could cause. For example, 10% of New Jersey's land area is covered by impervious surfaces, and I'm assuming that snow melt systems would also be incorporated into sidewalks, parking lots, and rooftops. Most commercial snow melt systems put out over 500 watts per square meter, so this would add 50 watts per square meter on average during a blizzard. To put that number in perspective, anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions have added 2 watts per square meter of radiative forcing, and total solar insolation is 1367 watts. So that sheer amount of heat pollution would definitely have some impacts on climate.

[SEWIGuy]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

I mean I guess if you are going to imbed this into every street.  But my guess is that the marginal cost of plowing is much lower than the marginal cost of installing, maintaining and operating this system.

[1995hoo]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

I mean I guess if you are going to imbed this into every street.  But my guess is that the marginal cost of plowing is much lower than the marginal cost of installing, maintaining and operating this system.

I don't recall the numbers, but I remember a few years ago after a snowstorm that led to all the overpasses at the Springfield Interchange freezing over just before rush hour, there was a big to-do about why some sort of radiant heating system wasn't installed on those bridges. Prohibitive cost was cited as the reason. If even a single interchange (a big interchange, to be sure, but still just one interchange) is deemed too expensive, then surely the idea of doing this to roads at large is not even worth discussing.

As I said in a prior reply, though, the idea of having some kind of heating system for bridges and overpasses that have been found to have icing problems may be something worth exploring. (This makes me pause to wonder how many NFL stadiums have turf-heating systems. I'm pretty sure Lambeau Field in Green Bay does. I'm absolutely certain FedEx Field here does not! Don't know about anywhere else. Obviously some venues don't need that sort of thing, but for cold-weather cities with outdoor playing surfaces that don't have one, I wonder whether the issue is cost or something else.)

[formulanone]

Yes, let's keep pounding back one over-engineered solution with some permanently-struggling small town with outlier levels of snowfall. That'll move the conversation...Ideas like this aren't going to be used on any widespread basis such as thousands of miles of roads, because of the initial costs and upkeep. Electrical warmth is no match for a plow against 3"+ of hourly snowfall and has less effect than chemical reactions, period.

But I could imagine it used in some specific places where warmth is desirable; perhaps for concrete-slabbed storage facilities or retail come to mind. That might reduce heating bills, since heat tends to rise. Maybe some upscale automotive repair shops could use it, but I'm not sure there's much gain from it...they use oil burners in a lot of those kinds of places, and they're quite effective. But how easily could an electric warmth system it be repaired? What would the cost and loss of time due to inconvenience for replacement? 

[kernals12]

Yes, let's keep pounding back one over-engineered solution with some permanently-struggling small town with outlier levels of snowfall. That'll move the conversation...Ideas like this aren't going to be used on any widespread basis such as thousands of miles of roads, because of the initial costs and upkeep. Electrical warmth is no match for a plow against 3"+ of hourly snowfall and has less effect than chemical reactions, period.

But I could imagine it used in some specific places where warmth is desirable; perhaps for concrete-slabbed storage facilities or retail come to mind. That might reduce heating bills, since heat tends to rise. Maybe some upscale automotive repair shops could use it, but I'm not sure there's much gain from it...they use oil burners in a lot of those kinds of places, and they're quite effective. But how easily could an electric warmth system it be repaired? What would the cost and loss of time due to inconvenience for replacement?

I'm sure that's what they said a century ago when they started covering dirt roads with asphalt. 3 inches of snow an hour is an extreme case. In places where that's somewhat common, they can use more powerful systems.

[FrCorySticha]

Systems like this have been available for home and business driveways and sidewalks for decades, and they're not this massive panacea for snow removal that it might seem. Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms. Snow melt has to go somewhere, and any form of drainage will freeze up. Also, snow is an insulator, and heavy snowfall will block the heat from having any impact beyond a certain point. It doesn't take more than 6+ inches from a snow squall to overwhelm these types of systems.

So, yes, they can be a great help on things like bridges that freeze over quickly, but it's still cheaper for many places to just keep plows and road salt at the ready.

[kernals12]

Systems like this have been available for home and business driveways and sidewalks for decades, and they're not this massive panacea for snow removal that it might seem. Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms. Snow melt has to go somewhere, and any form of drainage will freeze up. Also, snow is an insulator, and heavy snowfall will block the heat from having any impact beyond a certain point. It doesn't take more than 6+ inches from a snow squall to overwhelm these types of systems.

So, yes, they can be a great help on things like bridges that freeze over quickly, but it's still cheaper for many places to just keep plows and road salt at the ready.

That's why you turn it on before it starts snowing.

[nexus73]

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

[kernals12]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

I mean I guess if you are going to imbed this into every street.  But my guess is that the marginal cost of plowing is much lower than the marginal cost of installing, maintaining and operating this system.

I don't recall the numbers, but I remember a few years ago after a snowstorm that led to all the overpasses at the Springfield Interchange freezing over just before rush hour, there was a big to-do about why some sort of radiant heating system wasn't installed on those bridges. Prohibitive cost was cited as the reason. If even a single interchange (a big interchange, to be sure, but still just one interchange) is deemed too expensive, then surely the idea of doing this to roads at large is not even worth discussing.

As I said in a prior reply, though, the idea of having some kind of heating system for bridges and overpasses that have been found to have icing problems may be something worth exploring. (This makes me pause to wonder how many NFL stadiums have turf-heating systems. I'm pretty sure Lambeau Field in Green Bay does. I'm absolutely certain FedEx Field here does not! Don't know about anywhere else. Obviously some venues don't need that sort of thing, but for cold-weather cities with outdoor playing surfaces that don't have one, I wonder whether the issue is cost or something else.)

As I mentioned several times, low cost electricity would transform the economics of this.

[SEWIGuy]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

I mean I guess if you are going to imbed this into every street.  But my guess is that the marginal cost of plowing is much lower than the marginal cost of installing, maintaining and operating this system.

I don't recall the numbers, but I remember a few years ago after a snowstorm that led to all the overpasses at the Springfield Interchange freezing over just before rush hour, there was a big to-do about why some sort of radiant heating system wasn't installed on those bridges. Prohibitive cost was cited as the reason. If even a single interchange (a big interchange, to be sure, but still just one interchange) is deemed too expensive, then surely the idea of doing this to roads at large is not even worth discussing.

As I said in a prior reply, though, the idea of having some kind of heating system for bridges and overpasses that have been found to have icing problems may be something worth exploring. (This makes me pause to wonder how many NFL stadiums have turf-heating systems. I'm pretty sure Lambeau Field in Green Bay does. I'm absolutely certain FedEx Field here does not! Don't know about anywhere else. Obviously some venues don't need that sort of thing, but for cold-weather cities with outdoor playing surfaces that don't have one, I wonder whether the issue is cost or something else.)

Lambeau Field does, but a football field really isn't that big and it doesn't have to be turned on all that often.