I-465 west side rebuild: Poor design for the Sam Jones Expressway interchange

[Revive 755]

Took another look at the plans on INDOT's website after coming across this article:
http://www.ibj.com/i70-shortcut-getting-an-obstacle/PARAMS/article/20020

INDOT's website for the project:
http://www.in.gov/indot/div/projects/accelerate465/design/projectmap.html

And the first thing that comes to mind is:  What the heck are INDOT's planners on?  The environmental documents on the site are lousy, as they only describe the originally planned improvements and do not describe why many options, such as SPUI's, were rejected.  The new design for the Sam Jones Expressway interchange is atrocious; turning a freeway-freeway interchange to a diamond, especially when the Sam Jones Expressway should be the main SB I-465 to EB I-70 access route, given the less out of direction travel on that route, has got to be one of the stupidest planning decisions I've seen lately.

[Truvelo]

Looking at the project website it seems the final design for many of the interchanges is a much watered down version of the dismissed alternative. In particular, the section between I-70 and Kentucky Ave is very plain compared to the alternative with its complexed array of C/D roads to avoid weaving.

I thought the UK was bad enough for replacing freeflow interchanges with at-grade ones but some of the designs on that website are awful. Yes, I know cloverleafs are plagued by weaving but replacing loops with traffic lights isn't my idea of progress

[Brandon]

^^^
WTF!?!  Is someone at INDOT sniffing glue?  You never, never, never ever put traffic signals on an interchange that should be used as a freeway to freeway connection.  All INDOT needs to do is observe the clusterfk made by IDOT next door when they failed to extend the Elgin-O'Hare Expy to I-290 and used the current Thorndale Ave interchange (Exit 5).

[Truvelo]

All INDOT needs to do is observe the clusterfk made by IDOT next door when they failed to extend the Elgin-O'Hare Expy to I-290 and used the current Thorndale Ave interchange (Exit 5).

Yes, I remember using that last year and the grade is there for an extension to I-290. The other end of the expressway is also laid out for an extension. Hopefully it will be completed one day to provide a decent alternative to the rough and bumpy US-20.

On the whole I find connections between freeways in the US to be pretty decent. It's connections between freeways and tollways that I find awkward - no doubt in part due to the provision of toll booths. Those on the Penna Turnpike spring to mind such as Breezewood.

[Alex]

Such a major downgrade, a directional-cloverleaf interchange all the way to a diamond interchange... So what will be done with all that unused right of way? And if the loop ramps are to be eliminated, why build new diamond style ramps east of their original foot prints?

[tdindy88]

Hell, they might as well make Sam Jones just like Raymond Street and have stoplights at Lynhurst. Seriously though, this makes no sense whatsoever, it seems as if they are trying to make sure that people take the I-70 interchange itself, the one with two cloverleafs after the construction is over. Your options will be a 25-mile per hour cloverleaf and a stoplight.

[mgk920]

OTOH, I really like how the I-74 interchange is being redone - with direct free-flow ramps for the interstate-to-interstate connections while disconnecting the street 'in' from the interstate direct feed and rerouting it to feed into a similarly major street 'out'. It also retains the connection between the interstates and that street.

Mike

[Truvelo]

I wonder if the state of the economy is resulting in el cheapo interchanges? Certainly in the UK during the last recession I remember one bypass being built with at-grade roundabouts instead of interchanges and two of them have since had traffic lights installed because they can't handle the traffic. Taking the cheap option now is a false economy and will cause problems later.

[Revive 755]

^ I'd think simply replacing the Sam Jones bridges over I-465 would be cheaper than having to redo all the ramps.

[mukade]

I favor the interchange downgrade, personally. The purpose for that expressway/freeway connector is gone for one (because the terminal was moved to a midfield location), but the "expressway" ends a couple hundred feet west of I-465 anyway. Even if Indianapolis International Airport were made into a major passenger hub (doubtful, at best), the old terminal at the Sam Jones is history. So why should INDOT spend more money on an interchange at a road that has become relatively minor? INDOT redesigned I-70 and the new airport terminal access road to handle high volumes of traffic very efficiently and safely. I don't see the need to sink money unnecessarily into the Sam Jones Expressway interchange.

[Revive 755]

^ There's still the purpose of providing better access for traffic from the I-74 corridor west of Indy to I-70 east of Indy and vice versa that is served by the Sam Jones Expressway.

[froggie]

Only if you want to go through downtown.  Not everyone wants to do so, especially during peak hours.

[codyg1985]

That...is...dumb.

Does INDOT have any online traffic counts for the Sam Jones Expressway (SJE)? Surely there are enough people going from SB I-465 to EB SJE to warrant something other than a traffic signal. What about traffic counts going west of I-465 at SJE?

They have to rebuild the interchange to accomodate the wider I-465? I don't see why they want to downgrade it unless they think there isn't enough traffic going to and coming from the airport off of SJE to justfify a heavy duty interchange.

[rawmustard]

That...is...dumb.

Does INDOT have any online traffic counts for the Sam Jones Expressway (SJE)? Surely there are enough people going from SB I-465 to EB SJE to warrant something other than a traffic signal. What about traffic counts going west of I-465 at SJE?

They have to rebuild the interchange to accomodate the wider I-465? I don't see why they want to downgrade it unless they think there isn't enough traffic going to and coming from the airport off of SJE to justfify a heavy duty interchange.

I think I got a lesson in how much difference a year makes when we passed through the area during the Indy meet last year. Parking lots which were packed at the time I flew out of there in 2008 were pretty much deserted about the same time in 09. As Charles notes upthread, the midfield terminal basically shifted all the traffic which used High School Rd/what is now Sam Jones Expwy. I would think that any traffic count taken since the midfield terminal's opening will reflect that.

[tdindy88]

That...is...dumb.

Does INDOT have any online traffic counts for the Sam Jones Expressway (SJE)? Surely there are enough people going from SB I-465 to EB SJE to warrant something other than a traffic signal. What about traffic counts going west of I-465 at SJE?

They have to rebuild the interchange to accomodate the wider I-465? I don't see why they want to downgrade it unless they think there isn't enough traffic going to and coming from the airport off of SJE to justfify a heavy duty interchange.

INDOT doesn't have traffic counts for the area, but the City of Indianapolis does and from what I saw the traffic count along the Sam Jones was between 61,000 and 59,000 with it dropping off to 20,000 east of I-70. Granted, I'm not sure if these numbers are from before the midfield terminal or not, I'm thinking it isn't. And although the airport traffic has surely gone down, there's still some commuter traffic from the westside, Brownsburg and Avon especially that do use that paricular interchange, more so since they have started working on the I-70 interchange. And there is always the traffic for the Park Fletcher business park in that area to consider as well.

[mukade]

INDOT doesn't have traffic counts for the area, but the City of Indianapolis does and from what I saw the traffic count along the Sam Jones was between 61,000 and 59,000 with it dropping off to 20,000 east of I-70. Granted, I'm not sure if these numbers are from before the midfield terminal or not, I'm thinking it isn't. And although the airport traffic has surely gone down, there's still some commuter traffic from the westside, Brownsburg and Avon especially that do use that paricular interchange, more so since they have started working on the I-70 interchange. And there is always the traffic for the Park Fletcher business park in that area to consider as well.

I can't say what the traffic count is, but 61,000 seems high now. Last I saw, Park Fletcher was pretty empty, but there are still hotels in the area as few, if any have popped up at Ronald Reagan Parkway yet. I agree there is commuter traffic that use this road, and it would be a nice shortcut for those coming from the north and going downtown. The question is whether it is worth spending millions more given finite funding. As I said, INDOT spent a lot of extra money on the new airport access where it is necessary. Also, even if a flyover were built at I-465, those going downtown still would have to slow way down at I-70 to take a ramp that goes around about 300 degrees.