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Author Topic: Virginia  (Read 728018 times)

sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4250 on: July 12, 2019, 05:53:54 PM »

Virginia has built over 200 miles of new freeways, 15 sections, in the last 30 years, I have listed them before.  Over 150 miles connect to the Interstate system and are not isolated freeways.  Just because they don't have a red-white-and-blue trailblazer doesn't mean that they don't fulfill similar roles.
I decided to go through my North Carolina Freeway Openings map and add up all the mileage of freeways that opened after 1989, excluding I-40 around Winston-Salem because that received federal funding.

This list does include the newer interstates like I-540, I-485, I-295, I-140, I-87, I-73, and I-74 because while they are technically interstate highways, they were built like any other freeway in the state without special federal funding. They were just given a blue and red shield to go along with it.

From what I have on my map, North Carolina has built 671.32 miles of freeway since 1989, and 534.6 miles connect to the interstate highway system. There's at least 20 additional more miles that I did not have on my map yet that I know of the top of my head, and there's at least another 30 under construction as we speak, and another at least 80 miles planned over the next decade with I-73, I-74, I-87, I-42, I-795, NC-540, and I-840.

North Carolina has built over 3x the amount of freeways Virginia has in the last 3 decades without interstate highway funding, and majority connect to the system.

And even if you count the 152 miles of supplement routes in Virginia to make it even since NC had to play catch up on their own, North Carolina has still built 2x the amount Virginia has over the past 30 years.

At least another 100 miles was built between 1979 - 1989, though because you did not include those years in your number, I did not either.

Here's my work - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ycAHrZvtJN4qvtbgp-ijQh_b4vHbWecEgN_Jr69AxT4/edit?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 06:01:28 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4251 on: July 12, 2019, 10:27:51 PM »

And even if you count the 152 miles of supplement routes in Virginia to make it even since NC had to play catch up on their own, North Carolina has still built 2x the amount Virginia has over the past 30 years.

Subtract the 161 miles of I-40 east of Hillsborough that should have been in the original Interstate highway system.

Those are nearly all rural freeways.  N.C. still has not built a major bridge or tunnel project, and I am referring to something that crosses an oceangoing ship channel and with no drawspan.

Costwise compared to the typical cost of rural freeway construction per mile at the time
HRBT @ $140M = 50 miles
I-664 crossing @ $400M = 100 miles
I-264 parallel bridge and tunnel @ $250M = 60 miles
Midtown parallel tunnel @ $1.1B = 45 miles
CBBT @ $200M in 1964 = 200 miles
         @ $190M in 1999 = 40 miles

The $750 million CBBT parallel tunnel and the $4.6 billion HRBT expansion of course are not completed so I am not including them yet.
 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 10:33:03 PM by Beltway »
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Scott M. Kozel
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sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4252 on: July 12, 2019, 10:44:39 PM »

Subtract the 161 miles of I-40 east of Hillsborough that should have been in the original Interstate highway system.
I never included that in my figure. That was federally funded through the 1968 additions.

@ $190M in 1999 = 40 miles
10 miles of the Chesapeake Expressway in 1998 - 2001 cost $116 million

$190 million in 1999 would have maybe built 16-18 miles.

As seen by the Martinsville Southern Connector estimate released today, that would construct maybe 1.8 miles in today’s dollars in Virginia.

Midtown parallel tunnel @ $1.1B = 45 miles
In 2016 dollars, closer to about 30 miles.

The $750 million CBBT parallel tunnel and the $4.6 billion HRBT expansion of course are not completed so I am not including them yet.
CBBT would be around 7-8 miles of rural freeway, and HRBT about 50 miles in Virginia costs.

So that gives Virginia an "additional" 508 miles. But then you have to factor in I did -not- include federally funded interstate projects in my North Carolina estimate. Only newer highways that were state funded and not apart of the original interstate plan. So you can cut off the HRBT, I-664, and I-264 parallel project. You're down to 306 additional miles. Add that to the 200 miles and you're up to 506 miles. And note that 506 mile figure DOES include the HRBT and CBBT.

You're still 165 miles short of North Carolina's non-federally-funded freeway mileage, plus at least 20-40 miles (or maybe even more) I did not count, and the 35-45 miles currently under construction and the additional at least 80 miles planned for the next decade.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 10:57:34 PM by sprjus4 »
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NE2

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4253 on: July 13, 2019, 09:32:38 AM »

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4254 on: July 13, 2019, 09:49:16 AM »

Posts?  What posts?
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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4255 on: July 13, 2019, 11:14:46 AM »

Posts?  What posts?
So look, I'm gonna make this post once, and I hope everyone interested in this post sees it and actually reads it through. I honestly don't care what you say in response to it, just READ IT please.
Sprjus, Kozel: Without even taking sides here, obviously you both enjoy poking each other and endlessly debating. It's mostly Sprjus presenting facts, factoids, or talking points to support his arguments (I have not done my own research to say which is which), and Kozel questioning them. Sometimes the arguments get personal, and then resolve quickly. This has been a working dynamic for so long between you two guys, that I've stopped even monitoring it. I know you will each work things out between yourselves and move on.
Here's the thing: This is not your thread. If you notice, there are other people who poke in here sometimes. And they contribute. Or they try. And then they're drowned out by your endless debate. You've covered the I-81 thread and this one pretty thoroughly. Fortunately, you seem to leave the other topics alone. But unfortunately, while we don't want to inhibit free discussion of highway topics on the forum, that leaves users the latitude to monopolize it, and you have found a way to do so by being amazingly verbose for pages upon pages of discussion.
I thought through a couple of solutions. I could lock this thread and force all Virginia discussion to be topic-specific. I could root back to the beginning of this, put all of your discussion in a separate thread, and move on. But those both seem heavy-handed. So I'm going to request the following:
If you have specific topics you would like to debate each other on, please start a new thread for that. Let's leave this for general Virginia discussion.
So right now, you're talking about tolling and funding. Great. Let's start a thread on that. This isn't my board and I'm not making the move of your current posts, but I would appreciate if your discussion continued on that route. Can we give this a shot?
To the other users: Thank you so much for remaining civil and patient through this. I know it can be aggravating watching two people go back and forth for months on end, but I've found the discussion to be enlightening and informative at times.

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4256 on: July 13, 2019, 02:19:26 PM »

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4257 on: July 13, 2019, 03:15:34 PM »

To the other users: Thank you so much for remaining civil and patient through this. I know it can be aggravating watching two people go back and forth for months on end, but I've found the discussion to be enlightening and informative at times.[/color]

Now I finally know why the Virginia thread has so many posts! Or, at least lately.
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famartin

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4258 on: July 13, 2019, 04:52:19 PM »

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hbelkins

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4259 on: July 13, 2019, 07:01:11 PM »

I know it can be aggravating watching two people go back and forth for months on end, but I've found the discussion to be enlightening and informative at times.

It's been reminiscent of some of Scott's sparring with John Lansford on MTR.

Now, how about Corridor Q and the Coalfields Expressway?  :-D
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sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4260 on: July 13, 2019, 07:27:40 PM »

Now, how about Corridor Q and the Coalfields Expressway?  :-D
With Virginia's budget, maybe 2100?
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4261 on: July 13, 2019, 07:36:57 PM »

I know it can be aggravating watching two people go back and forth for months on end, but I've found the discussion to be enlightening and informative at times.
It's been reminiscent of some of Scott's sparring with John Lansford on MTR.

His posts would have been killfiled like I did with Larry Gross and Randy Hersch, a long time ago.  Too bad there are no killfiles here.

In response to the moderation, I have noticed for over a year that the many other posters either don't post or only post rarely due to the sentence where he said, "they're drowned out by your endless debate," at least that seems to be a logical conclusion based on observation.  And that is a problem and is unfair to others.
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sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4262 on: July 13, 2019, 07:52:19 PM »

And that is a problem and is unfair to others.
Agreed - if you have an issue with something I say either A) don't respond or B) take it to a new thread. Might as well just dedicate a thread to this.

I've noticed a lot of the endless debating, as Alps said, begins with me posting something and then you questioning it, and then it ends up being 25 pages of non-stop back and forth.

That's just how I see it.

No one is innocent here - it's both of us that have caused this.
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4263 on: July 13, 2019, 08:00:21 PM »

And that is a problem and is unfair to others.
Agreed - if you have an issue with something I say either A) don't respond or B) take it to a new thread. Might as well just dedicate a thread to this.
I've noticed a lot of the endless debating, as Alps said, begins with me posting something and then you questioning it, and then it ends up being 25 pages of non-stop back and forth.
That's just how I see it.

Just as often, I post something, and you question it, and then it goes back and forth, and it rarely lasts for anything remotely near 25 pages.
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Scott M. Kozel
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sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4264 on: July 13, 2019, 08:11:48 PM »

And that is a problem and is unfair to others.
Agreed - if you have an issue with something I say either A) don't respond or B) take it to a new thread. Might as well just dedicate a thread to this.
I've noticed a lot of the endless debating, as Alps said, begins with me posting something and then you questioning it, and then it ends up being 25 pages of non-stop back and forth.
That's just how I see it.

Just as often, I post something, and you question it, and then it goes back and forth, and it rarely lasts for anything remotely near 25 pages.
...and here we go again!
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sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4265 on: July 13, 2019, 08:13:55 PM »

You've covered the I-81 thread and this one pretty thoroughly. Fortunately, you seem to leave the other topics alone.
Agreed, though the "I-81 in Virginia" and "Virginia" threads are nothing near as bad as the "Interstate 87 (NC-VA)" thread is, though that one has been calm for quite awhile. That thread has been covered with the same back-and-forth for 27 pages.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 08:18:49 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4266 on: July 13, 2019, 10:00:49 PM »

And that is a problem and is unfair to others.
Agreed - if you have an issue with something I say either A) don't respond or B) take it to a new thread. Might as well just dedicate a thread to this.
I've noticed a lot of the endless debating, as Alps said, begins with me posting something and then you questioning it, and then it ends up being 25 pages of non-stop back and forth.
That's just how I see it.
Just as often, I post something, and you question it, and then it goes back and forth, and it rarely lasts for anything remotely near 25 pages.
...and here we go again!

No we don't. 

Look, I was serious when I commented about how it is unfair to others.  Maybe what I need to do is not reply to any of your posts for at least the next 7 days.
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Scott M. Kozel
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sprjus4

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4267 on: July 13, 2019, 10:15:57 PM »

Maybe what I need to do is not reply to any of your posts for at least the next 7 days.
Well it depends. If it's going to escalate towards an argument, I suppose hold back. But if it's relevant then it's fine.

I think both of us need to stop provoking each other and stick with the subject and leave personal opinions (which is what escalate most of these "debates") aside.

For instance, our opinions on how I-73 should be routed around Martinsville, our opinions of the HO/T lanes and tolls, our opinions of potential I-95 widening and management type, our opinions on which state is better when it comes to roads, our opinions on I-87's out-of-way routing, our opinions on funding priorities in Virginia, our opinions of US-58 vs. I-77, I-74, I-85, our opinions in driving preferences (i.e. taking freeway routing (slightly out of way) vs. arterial routing (most direct)), our opinions on speed traps, our opinions on reckless driving limits, etc.

That's the stuff that fuels the fire it seems, whenever any of that, or anything that we disagree with, gets brought up in discussion. It's ok to debate things slightly, but it does not need to carry on for pages and that's what we've let it do, and it usually does not get anywhere. If we want pages and pages, we need one thread dedicated to it, and even then it still needs to dial down some.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 10:25:43 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4268 on: July 14, 2019, 07:49:34 AM »

Beltway and sprjus4, I thank you so much for being honest with each other here.  I had been removing posts in the Mid-Atlantic forum whenever the debate escalated into personal attacks, but I tried to leave the posts alone as long as the debates remained civilized.  -Mark
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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4269 on: July 14, 2019, 01:29:24 PM »

I know it can be aggravating watching two people go back and forth for months on end, but I've found the discussion to be enlightening and informative at times.
It's been reminiscent of some of Scott's sparring with John Lansford on MTR.

His posts would have been killfiled like I did with Larry Gross and Randy Hersch, a long time ago.  Too bad there are no killfiles here.

There's a "hide" function here, but it's not really that great. You still see that the hidden poster has posted something, but it says something along the line of "You have hidden this member's posts. Click here to see this post."

The problem with Randy was that he kept coming up with new names that had to be killfiled. And of course, I'd still see his stuff if someone quoted it, even if it was from a post that I had killfiled.
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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4270 on: July 15, 2019, 10:04:49 AM »

?s=21
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4271 on: July 15, 2019, 11:02:13 AM »

Memories of the past ...

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4272 on: July 16, 2019, 11:47:57 AM »

Thankfully it looks like Loudoun is considering to further widen (4-lane) US-15 north of Leesburg. Even though at the moment there are only shoulder improvements planned north of Lucketts, I think it's inevitable that the widening will eventually go all the way to the Potomac River. Hopefully before 2030!
https://wtop.com/loudoun-county/2019/07/loudoun-considers-new-route-15-widening-plans/
Quote
Loudoun County, Virginia, is considering additional widening and other improvements for U.S. Route 15, from north of Leesburg to the Maryland state line, in the hopes that better-defining plans lead to more state or federal funding.

After a review of possible changes from Montresor Road to Point of Rocks, county staff recommend that the Board of Supervisors support widening Route 15 to four lanes with a median from Montresor Road to Lucketts, and a new four-lane bypass on a to-be-determined route around Lucketts to Stumptown Road, with two lanes continuing north of Stumptown Road.

The Stumptown Road-Lucketts Roads area is projected to be a key rush-hour chokepoint for years.

North of Lucketts, there would be shoulder and other improvements, a new traffic light at Lovettsville Road, and a roundabout to line up Newvalley Church Road with Spinks Ferry Road.

Loudoun County hopes to award a contract around 2024, with completion around 2027. At least that is the basis for a $217.3 million construction cost estimate.

The county has already included about $110.7 million for the work into its long-term capital spending plans, so the county would need to identify about $106 million more in local, state or federal funding to go forward with the recommended scenario.

A funding request to the state was rejected this year, in large part because the project plans had not been fully developed.

Now there is an alternative, but for only $49 million less, choosing it would be insanity.

Quote
An approximately $49 million cheaper alternative being offered to the board would have similar other changes but would keep Route 15 at two lanes with a new median from Montresor Road to Saint Clair Lane, and better shoulders from Saint Clair Lane to the river. The proposed bypass might also be two lanes.
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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4273 on: July 16, 2019, 02:07:24 PM »

Memories of the past ...



Yeah I remember this like it was yesterday. It was even worse at night, especially NB. There were times where they briefly closed the road altogether in order to move equipment or sections of the bridge into place. It was just long enough to create a backup all the way back to Bells Rd and sometimes further. VDOT warned of an hour delay on DMS's and they weren't kidding.


I found a pic online a couple years back of the first (1976) BGS for VA 195, I'm gonna try and dig it up.
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia
« Reply #4274 on: July 16, 2019, 02:29:47 PM »

Memories of the past ...

Yeah I remember this like it was yesterday. It was even worse at night, especially NB. There were times where they briefly closed the road altogether in order to move equipment or sections of the bridge into place. It was just long enough to create a backup all the way back to Bells Rd and sometimes further. VDOT warned of an hour delay on DMS's and they weren't kidding.
I found a pic online a couple years back of the first (1976) BGS for VA 195, I'm gonna try and dig it up.
This was a fascinating project to watch.  There were a variety of vantage points where one could stand within about 150 feet of the bridge and watch the sawing, removal and replacement operations for the prefabricated sections of bridge deck, and there were a number of nights where I went there for several hours to watch the construction.  Driving through there was also a good way to pass the construction zones and to get a glimpse of the construction operations, and I did that many times also, at least after the heavy traffic periods so that I was not adding to the backup.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/I95_JRB_Restoration.html

Since bridge volume was about 4,800 vehicles per hour at 7:00 PM when the closure started, motorists were advised to consider alternate routes, since 2 lanes could not handle that much traffic.  I-95 traffic backed up for a couple miles at times during the early evenings.  Volumes dropped steadily and at 10:00 PM it was down to about 3,000 vehicles per hour, and traffic usually flowed freely from then until all lanes reopened at 6:00 AM, albeit traffic moved slowly at about 40 mph.  The AADT (annual average daily traffic) on the bridge at the time of the project was over 110,000 with 9% large trucks.  Construction did not occur on weekends, holidays, or during bad weather.

During construction nights, it was necessary to stop all traffic for up to 10 minutes at a time, about twice a night, so that the large caterpillar-like vehicle with rubber treads, could carry the new bridge span sections across the highway to the bridge work site.  State troopers would stop the traffic during these times.


The official signed alternate routes included segments of I-295, VA-288, VA-76, I-195, and US-1/US-301.
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