Limon

[JayhawkCO]

If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

And NC would still use it assuming there was an interstate junction there.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

There's no perfect answer, of course. If they replaced Limon with Colorado Springs going westbound from Kansas, there would be people complaining that I-70 doesn't go there.

What if they put Amarillo/(Kansas destination) going eastbound from Denver, for US 287?

[JayhawkCO]

There's no perfect answer, of course. If they replaced Limon with Colorado Springs going westbound from Kansas, there would be people complaining that I-70 doesn't go there.

What if they put Amarillo/(Kansas destination) going eastbound from Denver, for US 287?

Then we'd have people bitching it wasn't Dallas/Fort Worth.

[thspfc]

I agree with CoreySamson, but here's pretty much my point:

Hub City of Eastern Colorado

 

So what?

[Roadgeekteen]

There's no perfect answer, of course. If they replaced Limon with Colorado Springs going westbound from Kansas, there would be people complaining that I-70 doesn't go there.

What if they put Amarillo/(Kansas destination) going eastbound from Denver, for US 287?

Don't bother with Colorado Springs traffic and sign Denver, the much bigger city. The silly part is that Colorado Springs doesn't even get a mention on the main Limon exit, just on it's on sign. Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

[Roadwarriors79]

So I saw that US 40 is concurrent with I-70 from east of Denver to Limon. Could Limon as a control city be a carryover from when it would have been just US 40?

As far as signing primary control cities hundreds of miles away, some states have no problem doing that. If Limon is so important to CDOT, then cosign it with a city more people have heard of.

[US 89]

So I saw that US 40 is concurrent with I-70 from east of Denver to Limon. Could Limon as a control city be a carryover from when it would have been just US 40?

Maybe, but Limon would have been an even less important city back before the interstates, as Kansas- and Texas-bound traffic would not diverge until the 40/287 split in Kit Carson.

[Scott5114]

Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid of mountains.

[Roadgeekteen]

Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid of mountains.

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

[Scott5114]

Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid of mountains.

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

[zzcarp]

According to CDOT's AADT traffic data from 2021, I-70 East of Limon has 12,000 vpd and US 40-285 SE of Limon has 3,900. I-70 West of Limon has 13,000 vpd and US 24 west of Limon has 3,300 vpd.

Colorado Springs-bound traffic is about 20% of the total westbound traffic (or 25% of the traffic that I-70 has toward Denver), which would make sense. El Paso County is the largest county in the state, but it doesn't have the density of populated counties the Denver region has.

It's also interesting how close in traffic counts US 40-287 east of town are to US 24 west of town. I'm a bit surprised that the route to Kit Carson has slightly more traffic than goes to the Springs.

[thspfc]

Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid of mountains.

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

How many of your friends now how to ski? You know, being in Oklahoma and all.

Don't act like your social circle represents everyone.

In addition, Aspen is far from the only major ski town to which you would take I-70. It's one of at least a dozen of comparable size.

[JayhawkCO]

Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid of mountains.

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

How many of your friends now how to ski? You know, being in Oklahoma and all.

Don't act like your social circle represents everyone.

In addition, Aspen is far from the only major ski town to which you would take I-70. It's one of at least a dozen of comparable size.

I would imagine something on the order of 5:1, people drive to Colorado for general mountain sightseeing vs. skiing. Keep in mind that most people who come skiing are flying in so that they don't have to drive here in the winter.

There are plenty of mountains in this state that, if coming from the east, you wouldn't take I-70 all the way to Denver and beyond. I just spent a week down by Lake City and there were a whole bunch of out of state (to the east) license plates down there.

[thspfc]

Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid of mountains.

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

How many of your friends now how to ski? You know, being in Oklahoma and all.

Don't act like your social circle represents everyone.

In addition, Aspen is far from the only major ski town to which you would take I-70. It's one of at least a dozen of comparable size.

I would imagine something on the order of 5:1, people drive to Colorado for general mountain sightseeing vs. skiing. Keep in mind that most people who come skiing are flying in so that they don't have to drive here in the winter.

There are plenty of mountains in this state that, if coming from the east, you wouldn't take I-70 all the way to Denver and beyond. I just spent a week down by Lake City and there were a whole bunch of out of state (to the east) license plates down there.

Fair - but there are also a lot of mountain destinations off I-70.

[Scott5114]

Right, and the point is that there's really no way to confidently state that everyone who wants to go to the mountains will or won't stay on I-70 past Limon. Which was what Roadgeekteen did.

[mrsman]

I think one of the biggest issues with this debate is that people are approaching this from different mindsets. There's the "western US"  mindset, which treats Limon as a more of a waypoint that functions as the "Hub City of Eastern Colorado"  and a vital place to service ailing automobiles, grab a bite to eat, or stay the night if necessary. Since there's nothing else around, this mindset assumes that Limon is therefore important, and would sign it.

On the other hand, a more "eastern US"  mindset would find Limon to be an irrelevant backward town similar to all the other ones along the interstate highway system, which is not their fault for having that presupposition. East of US 81, pretty much every little small town has the capacity to do the things Limon does. If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

So I think your opinion on Limon depends on your perspective. I personally think it should be signed in tandem with Denver (WB) and Salina (EB). It should not be skipped.

There are some western states that follow the eastern mindset in desginating their control cities.  Even when distances are big, the interstate controls are only the cities that are of a "national" scale.  And the point is that there is an understanding that the signs are menat to direct people to places that people have heard of to denote general direction.  It is generally more helpful to the non-local traveler.

Utah is great in this regard.  Here at the 15/80 interchange in SLC, the control cities are Las Vegas (420 mi) and Reno (520 mi), Cheyenne (440 mi) and Ogden (39 mi):

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7681357,-111.9125638,3a,75y,203.57h,96.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXJ6t6_2KXjuKAh074lqLBQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Nevada is also using larger control cities these days.  Downtown Las Vegas interchange has control cities of Los Angeles (270 mi), Reno (438 mi), Phoenix (300 mi), and Salt Lake City (420 mi).

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1678122,-115.1590473,3a,75y,358.56h,76.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suuMQ5aYCPw0LkmrnCmMKjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In my opinion, the larger and more well known cities are more helpful and should predominate, even at larger distances.

[DenverBrian]

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I was within the context that in all of eastern Colorado, only Limon has more than two roads intersecting. Once you're in the West, I think there's a different approach than there is in the far more populated East. I think it does help travelers intrastate, especially when the state is the size of 5-10 states in the East.

[thspfc]

eastern Colorado

[kalvado]

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I was within the context that in all of eastern Colorado, only Limon has more than two roads intersecting. Once you're in the West, I think there's a different approach than there is in the far more populated East. I think it does help travelers intrastate, especially when the state is the size of 5-10 states in the East.

Let me ask a bit different question - how do people in the west describe directions in general?
If I ask you - or rather an average driver in Las Vegas - for directions, say, from Las Vegas to a national park in Utah, how would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign, regardless of what FHWA thinks about "proper" control points.
Over here in NY, I can certainly say "I-90 towards Buffalo", bypassing quite a few big cities - and would accept some of those cities as possible answers from others ; but I don't think about I-90 as a road to Chicago or Seattle unless I talk about directions to the airport.

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

[JayhawkCO]

East.

[Jim]

EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

[thspfc]

East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

[JayhawkCO]

East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

[JayhawkCO]

EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Then why do we use Cheyenne? Why not just say Wyoming?

[thspfc]

East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.