ACCESS Oklahoma

[Plutonic Panda]

My memory could easily be off here but I seem to recall the bypass being killed right after Stitt was sworn into office. Not sure if he had any effect but why is Chickisha opening their arms to a bypass and Muskogee isn't.

[Bobby5280]

Maybe they should threaten to upgrade US75 from I-40 to Tulsa. If that happens then there is a bypass (albeit tolled) of Muskogee all the way down to McAlester.

The US-75 corridor between Henryetta and Tulsa needs lots of upgrades for its own reasons. Even if there was a new freeway or turnpike along that stretch the US-69 corridor from McAlester to Big Cabin would still need a lot of freeway upgrade work. A lot of long haul trucks headed up from Texas to the Northeast US would probably continue using US-69 rather than go thru Tulsa. Maybe.

I think ODOT should build out as much freeway upgrades along US-69 as it can, in areas where they're not getting hit with all sorts of opposition. Let the hold-outs sit there with their local streets getting beat to hell by all the heavy truck traffic while ODOT builds where it can elsewhere. Then come back to those hold-out towns when the timing is right.

My memory could easily be off here but I seem to recall the bypass being killed right after Stitt was sworn into office. Not sure if he had any effect but why is Chickisha opening their arms to a bypass and Muskogee isn't.

Different towns can have leaders with different mindsets.

I thought it was pretty much the local leaders in Muskogee that killed the US-69 bypass efforts there. Really, they didn't "kill" the project as much as they did to give ODOT a good excuse to spend capital project money on other projects elsewhere in Oklahoma.

People in Chickasha obviously see a benefit in elevating the importance of the US-81 corridor thru their town. Chickasha is also starting to turn into a sort of ex-hurb of the OKC metro. Maybe they're trying to look toward the future by getting the first phases of the bypass moving. I think they've actually had some plans for this thing for a long time. The bend US-81 takes South of Chickasha, where the North and South lanes spread far apart, was clearly built in mind for a future "Y" interchange. They're going to build the South end of the bypass right there. The North end, at the intersection with US-62 & US-81 already has had the ROW needed for a diamond interchange.

Duncan is more of a mixed bag. They got the South half of the bypass built from US-81 up to OK-7. But now the North half going up into Marlow to dovetail back into US-81 is now in limbo. I don't know if ODOT has simply abandoned it due to local opposition.

[swake]

Maybe they should threaten to upgrade US75 from I-40 to Tulsa. If that happens then there is a bypass (albeit tolled) of Muskogee all the way down to McAlester.

The US-75 corridor between Henryetta and Tulsa needs lots of upgrades for its own reasons. Even if there was a new freeway or turnpike along that stretch the US-69 corridor from McAlester to Big Cabin would still need a lot of freeway upgrade work. A lot of long haul trucks headed up from Texas to the Northeast US would probably continue using US-69 rather than go thru Tulsa. Maybe.

US-75 south of downtown in the city of Tulsa is being upgraded to 6/8 lanes over the next few years under current projects. Most of it is part of the massive I-44/US-75 interchange project, the last phase of that project that includes US-75 starts in 2024. The other section of US-75 in the city of Tulsa to be widened outside of the I-44 project is a mile of the highway that is part of upgrading the 81st St exit scheduled to start late next year.

ODOT is already scheduled to buy the right of way to upgrade the highway south of the city of Tulsa to the Okmulgee County line in the current TIP plan. The long range plan is for US-75 to be expanded to 6 lanes through Jenks to OK-67 (141st St) in Glenpool with service roads in Glenpool.

Outside of the Tulsa area US-75 in northeast Oklahoma does not run through a lot of little towns like what you see with US-69 in southern Oklahoma where the highway is the only major street in town. There's a couple of stoplights in Henryetta, but the highway doesn't really run through the middle of the town. It wouldn't take too much to upgrade the highway there. There is another project scheduled for next year to add bridges for a new limited access exit for the town of Preston.

The problem for US-75 in northeastern Oklahoma is Okmulgee. The highway runs though the center of Okmulgee for more than five miles with many stoplights and curb cuts. It's simply not safe for all those big rigs stopping and going mixing with city traffic. A bypass should have been built decades ago. I know of no plans to change 75 there.

[skluth]

The NIMBYs are definitely coming out in full force on this. This article is full of manipulated info. It is unlikely the woman interviewed would lose her home as "the turnpike would be built about a quarter-mile from her home" and "she's not in the eminent domain zone of the turnpike's planned path." (Note: link goes to ACCESS Site. Couldn't link to map.) Actually, the eminent domain zone is that close, not the turnpike. The planned path goes through a heavily wooded area near her home so it's very unlikely that "an adjustment of the turnpike's path could potentially put her in the eminent domain zone." As long as ODOT keeps the turnpike in her neighborhood mostly surrounded by woods she likely wouldn't even notice the highway. As Cedar Lane Road is truncated at 84th AV SE, it's unlikely a viaduct would be built to keep the connection so the neighborhood may even become a little quieter.

There are several people who will likely lose their homes north of OK 9 between urban Norman and Lake Thunderbird. It's curious why the station didn't interview any of those residents. They have far more stake in this highway than this "victim." The opposition to this project is looking more contrived daily.

[Plutonic Panda]

The news outlets are sure eating up the "controversy."  It seems like every other day they're putting out a new article: https://www.news9.com/story/6243842b1b0b7c0192307b7b/norman-residents-fight-on-against-turnpike-expansion-plan

[Plutonic Panda]

Another rose rock article. I personally couldn't care less about these rocks and I'm sure they'll be more to find around this area. Just using these rocks and nothing more than an excuse: https://okcfox.com/news/local/norman-residents-hope-rare-rose-rocks-could-help-stop-the-south-extension-turnpike

[US 89]

Man, the OKC metro must be a really boring place. Clearly the news stations out there needed something to talk about. 

[Plutonic Panda]

You're not kidding.

[Scott5114]

A freeway corridor is, what, 100 feet wide? I sort of doubt all of the rose rocks in Cleveland County are concentrated along a 100-foot-wide corridor that just happens to be right where OTA is building the road. God, Noble is exhausting to deal with.

And yet whenever they build a housing development in Noble nobody has anything to say about the rose rocks then.

This is quickly turning into the stupidest political circus I've seen in a long time, in a state that specializes in stupid political circuses.

[Bobby5280]

A typical 4 lane Oklahoma turnpike with a concrete Jersey barrier in the center is around 105' for the actual roadway portion. All the graded green stuff off to the left and right of the roadway expands the full ROW out to around 300'-350'. I'm basing that off the recently re-built portion of I-44 just South of Newcastle. The overall ROW width is going to vary based on terrain, bridges over waterways and existing development. If you put up sound walls or drop it into a trench a 4-lane turnpike can fit into as little as a 110' space while maintaining modern width lanes and shoulders.

[rte66man]

People in Chickasha obviously see a benefit in elevating the importance of the US-81 corridor thru their town. Chickasha is also starting to turn into a sort of ex-hurb of the OKC metro. Maybe they're trying to look toward the future by getting the first phases of the bypass moving. I think they've actually had some plans for this thing for a long time. The bend US-81 takes South of Chickasha, where the North and South lanes spread far apart, was clearly built in mind for a future "Y" interchange. They're going to build the South end of the bypass right there. The North end, at the intersection with US-62 & US-81 already has had the ROW needed for a diamond interchange.

The Chickasha bypass has been planned for more than 60 years. As you pointed out, that is why US81 south of the OK19 junction has the wide spacing between carriageways.

Duncan is more of a mixed bag. They got the South half of the bypass built from US-81 up to OK-7. But now the North half going up into Marlow to dovetail back into US-81 is now in limbo. I don't know if ODOT has simply abandoned it due to local opposition.

Duncan doesn't give a rat's ass about a Marlow bypass. They got theirs. Marlow doesn't have anyone with the stroke Jari Askins had when she got the Duncan Bypass.

[Bobby5280]

Duncan doesn't give a rat's ass about a Marlow bypass. They got theirs. Marlow doesn't have anyone with the stroke Jari Askins had when she got the Duncan Bypass.

The problem is the big picture plan for the Duncan Bypass was for both its North and South ends to dovetail into US-81. The bypass is going to draw less thru traffic (such as heavy trucks) if the North end stays dead-ended at OK-7.

I don't remember the exact specifics on why progress was halted for the North phase of the Duncan bypass, but I think it either had to do with opposition from businesses on the South side of Marlow worried about getting bypassed or from home owners worried about their properties being taken.

[triplemultiplex]

Regarding the rose rocks, here's a primer on what the heck that actually is.  Should give you an idea of how distributed they are in central Oklahoma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvneeTQyyCs

(video predates the launch of Access Oklahoma and only addresses the roses as a geologic oddity.)

[kphoger]

I mean, I get it that these are the official state rock of Oklahoma.  But seriously, this is taking environmental concerns to a whole new level.  Are rocks the new endangered species?

[I-55]

I mean, I get it that these are the official state rock of Oklahoma.  But seriously, this is taking environmental concerns to a whole new level.  Are rocks the new endangered species?

Someone in my politics class tried to convince me that water has rights. Before you know it AIR will be an endangered species.

[Scott5114]

I mean, I get it that these are the official state rock of Oklahoma.  But seriously, this is taking environmental concerns to a whole new level.  Are rocks the new endangered species?

It's very much a perfunctory reason for stopping the project. I have outright seen people posit questions like "How should we use the rose rocks to stop the turnpike" in Facebook advocacy groups.

[Plutonic Panda]

Another day another article from a local network about the opposition: https://kfor.com/news/local/norman-residents-argue-republican-platform-contradicts-proposed-turnpike-expansion/

[skluth]

Regarding the rose rocks, here's a primer on what the heck that actually is.  Should give you an idea of how distributed they are in central Oklahoma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvneeTQyyCs

(video predates the launch of Access Oklahoma and only addresses the roses as a geologic oddity.)

It seems like the rocks are fairly widespread along a narrow N-S line through Central Oklahoma according to a map in the video. It looks like there wasn't any concern in the past as Lake Stanley Draper is an artificial lake created right in the middle of this formation as demonstrated by the two best sites being located along the shoreline; I imagine any rocks buried by the lake have experienced at least some erosion if not having their crystals dissolved. There was also a huge amount of development east of OKC allowed within the formation. It's ridiculous to think that something that obviously has not stopped any damaging development to the formation in the past could preempt a highway that crosses a small part of the formation unless there is also effort to save the rocks against other development.

[bugo]

Heh. You definitely weren't doing yourself any favors mentioning California. There's no place conservative Okies hate worse (other than possibly Texas).

I saw the Foo Fighters in Oklahoma City in 2015. In between songs, Dave Grohl mentioned Amarillo, Texas, and the crowd booed loudly. He got pissed and said "Don't you ever boo an American city like that!" I guess he just doesn't understand the Oklahoma-Texas rivalry.

I saw Tool in Tulsa in January, and between songs, Maynard James Keenan said "Tulsa...it's like Oklahoma City, but better." The crowd laughed, except for the OKC residents, who booed. I thought it was funny.

[bugo]

It looks like the Access Oklahoma site's pages have a 'noindex' tag, which Google interprets as a request to exclude it from search results.

That's Oklahoma government all right. 

I don't know if they are still like this, but as late as 2 years ago, there were many open directories on the ODOT website containing various maps and other documents in PDF format. I mass downloaded the documents that looked interesting to me. I still haven't gone through all of the documents to see what they are.

[kernals12]

And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

[Bobby5280]

I like OKC enough, but yeah it isn't London, Singapore or any global cosmopolitan city. Nevertheless, aren't these people aware of how improved highway access in the OKC might actually be a GOOD thing? As I've said in earlier posts, the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East to West Connector between Moore and Norman could help business BOOM. The turnpikes could attract new businesses, booth job growth and improve home values in that area. The areas around Lake Thunderbird and even Lake Stanley Draper could have a lot of new home and resort growth unlocked.

[Scott5114]

That's the problem–these people don't want growth. They want the world to remain exactly the same way it is the day they bought the property.

That's all well and good, but why did they buy property in Cleveland County instead of somewhere with no growth, like, I dunno, Kiowa County? Because they want to be close to the city. Mmm, well, there's a tradeoff to that, isn't there?

[Plutonic Panda]

And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

That's the typical anti car narrative. Funny enough I actually am trying to be as civil as possible with some of these people and I've been privately messaging some of these folks discussing the proposal. The ones that haven't blocked me have calmed down and were talking in a civil manner at this point. I've actually suggested one of the only the real arguments I could see being remotely acceptable is the induced demand theory but even that's a big stretch.

I think Bobby might have pointed this out but I agree with that induced demand would likely be more of an issue in a city like NYC. The majority of people already drive in OKC so how much much traffic on these roads is a result of induced demand? I seriously doubt it'd be that much. I don't consider any new growth that is made possible something negative even if that includes induced demand.

I-40 to this day still flows with zero issue except for the horrible interchange at I-44 which should been addressed when they widened the damn road! 

[Plutonic Panda]

That's the problem–these people don't want growth. They want the world to remain exactly the same way it is the day they bought the property.

That's all well and good, but why did they buy property in Cleveland County instead of somewhere with no growth, like, I dunno, Kiowa County? Because they want to be close to the city. Mmm, well, there's a tradeoff to that, isn't there?

Yeah and the anti growth people don't think long term about the ramifications their mentality has. Look at Moab. I've come to love the town so much I think I'm going to purchase my first home there but the prices are nuts. Go around and talk to people and they're mostly anti growth/anti tourist/UHV types. Mention something like a tunnel bypass of 191 for through traffic and they lose their minds.

Spanish Valley seems to be more growth friendly and I don't think it's long before 191 sees some bad traffic issues. Then again at least Moab embraced a four lane road expansion unlike Sedona.