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Author Topic: I49 in LA  (Read 484744 times)

Bobby5280

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1350 on: March 09, 2019, 03:46:48 PM »

Quote from: jbnv
I'm not rich by any means. I commute 45 miles to work one-way every day on two interstates, one of which is I-12 into Baton Rouge. Which means that if they were tolled, I'd be paying hundreds of dollars every month just to work. And guess what? If that money means less traffic and better-maintained roads, I'd pay it.

Affordability is all relative. Ability to pay tolls on a previously "free" highway varies from one motorist to the next. And it also varies from one toll road to the next. A big chunk of our nation's population is making at or little above minimum wage. A decade ago when the mezzo-scale, ponzi-scheme fraud perpetrated on our housing industry finally imploded one of the catalysts to make it happen was gasoline prices hitting new all-time highs. Many new home owners stretched themselves financially just to upgrade into better living spaces (often farther out into the suburbs and exurbs). They had no wiggle room to absorb their commute costs suddenly doubling or worse. Flash forward to today: many of the same conditions are present again in the economy.

I'm 100% sure if someone conducted a poll of Oklahoma's residents about their views of our turnpike system the vast majority would say extremely negative things about it. Most want the toll gates removed. Few probably realize there would be a serious cost penalty to doing so. A big hike on fuel tax rates would be required for ODOT to assume maintenance obligations on 600 miles worth of turnpikes. I also doubt if many of Oklahoma's drivers have ever bothered comparing the prices per mile of Oklahoma's toll roads versus those elsewhere in the country.

I think Oklahoma tolls per mile are a bargain compared to those in Texas. Most of the toll roads in Texas are flanked by frontage roads that are free to use. Highways like LBJ Freeway in Dallas or Katy Freeway in Houston have plenty of free lanes as an alternative to the tolled express lanes.

Quote from: jbnv
Speaking of I-12 traffic: A large quantity of that traffic came from out of Louisiana. Considering that I'm happy to pay Texas to use their roads when I'm in Texas, I have no qualms about asking traffic from outside of Louisiana to pay Louisiana for using roads to pass through Louisiana. Not to mention that the 10/12 corridor is a known corridor for drugs and human trafficking. If paying tolls on that stretch discourages the trafficking and helps pay for more police, then put the transponders up tomorrow.

If any of those motorists fill up at any gas stations in Louisiana they're contributing to funding the roads there. It's up to Louisiana to charge an proper fuel tax rate to cover its needs. Oklahoma just passed a very modest increase to its fuel taxes, the first hike since 1993. The hike was long overdue and arguably not nearly enough to cover inflation of construction and maintenance costs over the past 25 years.

Erecting toll gates on an existing Interstate highway that has long been "free" to use would be extremely unpopular politically. I imagine if a lawmaker here in Oklahoma proposed installing toll gates on I-40 to raise revenue he would end his political career pretty fast.

I seriously doubt toll gates would have any effect on illegal businesses like drug smuggling and human trafficking. Unfortunately tolls would be a small price to pay for the big amounts of money those activities generate.
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1351 on: March 09, 2019, 05:22:53 PM »

If any of those motorists fill up at any gas stations in Louisiana they're contributing to funding the roads there.

That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles. (For comparison, I get about 400 miles/tank on my current vehicle.) Now, I have no idea what kind of range trucks get. You're welcome to educate me in that regard.

Erecting toll gates on an existing Interstate highway that has long been "free" to use would be extremely unpopular politically. I imagine if a lawmaker here in Oklahoma proposed installing toll gates on I-40 to raise revenue he would end his political career pretty fast.

That's a matter of education. We're at the point where pretty much any tax increase is going to face great opposition. I'm one of those people who is going to oppose a tax increase for whatever the reason anyway. So tolls vis-a-vis higher gas taxes is a wash.

I seriously doubt toll gates would have any effect on illegal businesses like drug smuggling and human trafficking. Unfortunately tolls would be a small price to pay for the big amounts of money those activities generate.

You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1352 on: March 09, 2019, 05:53:46 PM »

I'm one of those people who is going to oppose a tax increase for whatever the reason anyway.

Ah yes, you're one of those people who support the nonsensical notion of "no new taxes" but demand more services/proper maintenance of existing stuff from your government anyway.

Quote
You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.

Traffic cameras are a terrible substitute for actual law enforcement.
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sprjus4

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1353 on: March 09, 2019, 08:09:02 PM »

I'm one of those people who is going to oppose a tax increase for whatever the reason anyway.
More people would support higher taxes over tolls on all the interstates. That's a f-a-c-t. Don't complain when taxes are raised, I hope you realize that when they are raised - it's for an actual reason. The current taxes cannot handle everything, and installing electronic toll gantries on every interstate is not the answer. The minority (you) may believe that, but there's a reason proposals in the past like to toll I-81, I-95, and other interstates on the east coast have f-a-i-l-e-d. Another thing, tolls drive away businesses. That's also a f-a-c-t. They hurt truckers having to pay expensive tolls (way more than the average car). Even better, the trucker has to pay it out if his/her pocket, so that adds even more of a burden to them. Again, f-a-c-t. North Carolina was going to toll all 182 miles of I-95 to widen it, but instead they're moving on with widening - with tax dollars and slightly higher taxes. It's gonna take longer, but pay off in the end. They already have over 40 miles funded to be widened from 4 to 8 lanes (construction starts this year), and more programmed in the future for 6 lanes IIRC. A much more favorable option for everybody, especially truckers. Haven't heard much opposition to that. The toll proposal had lots of opposition on the contrary.

You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.
Ah yes. Let's slap a $40 car toll / $60+ truck toll on I-10 / I-12 across Louisiana for a theoretical benefit that really doesn't exist. The only thing it will do is place a burden on thousands of people daily, for almost no reason besides... raising money for a hypothetical program? No one would support that, not to mention actually get serious with any proposals. I mean, what is a CCTV camera going to help with? Seeing a bunch of cars and trucks pass under it at 70+ MPH? You can't catch traffickers with that, have you watched CCTV cameras before on the interstates?

If you love tolls so much, go live somewhere like Dallas, Houston, Southern California, and a lot of other places that are filled with tolls roads left and right. The interstates were built with tax dollars decades ago, they work fine, and if a massive expansion is needed, that's when tolling can be considered, along with traditional methods. But just to place some sensors on an existing 4-lane rural interstates to get some extra revenue that won't benefit the motoring public or flow of traffic whatsoever just seems like a waste to almost everybody.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1354 on: March 09, 2019, 08:45:00 PM »

Quote from: jbnv
That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles. (For comparison, I get about 400 miles/tank on my current vehicle.) Now, I have no idea what kind of range trucks get. You're welcome to educate me in that regard.

The fact there's plenty of convenience stores and truck stops along the exits of Louisiana Interstates should provide at least some proof long distance motorists are filling up at least some of the time there. I've driven back and forth between Oklahoma and Florida numerous times; I've often stopped at various places in Louisiana to fill up the tank. It's 342 miles for me to get across Louisiana on the way to Florida (11 miles on I-20, 7 on LA-3132, 201 on I-49 and 141 on I-10/I-12 to the MS border). It's a similar distance to get down to New Orleans. That's more than enough mileage to warrant a fuel stop. Not everyone is just taking I-20 or I-10/I-12 straight across the state.

Quote from: jbnv
That's a matter of education. We're at the point where pretty much any tax increase is going to face great opposition. I'm one of those people who is going to oppose a tax increase for whatever the reason anyway. So tolls vis-a-vis higher gas taxes is a wash.

That's a contradictory statement. You want to "educate" people about tolls, but you're against any gas tax increase no matter what the circumstances might be? Such as high cost inflation of building and maintaining roads? If states aren't able to raise their gasoline taxes they'll be forced to install RFID tag readers and license plate cameras to charge tolls on every street corner.

Quote from: jbnv
You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.

Drug smugglers and people who do human trafficking do not have signs on the outsides of their vehicles letting any cameras know they're conducting an illegal operation. Whether the vehicle is a semi-truck or a standard passenger auto it's pretty easy for those criminals to reach their destinations. All they have to do is not call attention to themselves by speeding or doing anything else stupid. The best chance of catching those criminals is at border checkpoints where law enforcement personnel have an opportunity to inspect/search the vehicle.

Regarding the funding of highway patrol, most states do that directly from the state budget. That's the case for the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. Only under special circumstances are parts of their operation funded with turnpike revenue. In 2018 the OTA provided $5 million in funding for a new OHP Academy class since the state budget had come up short for that during the previous 2 years.

I don't think highway patrols should be funded through toll revenue (or gasoline taxes either). When the price of fuel gets too high many people cut way back on their trips. And that ultimately hurts revenue since gasoline taxes are a flat per gallon amount rather than a percentage of the per gallon price. A highway patrol reliant on toll revenue or fuel taxes would be prone to all kinds of budget shortfalls during hard times. And it's during hard times when law enforcement has to step it a couple notches since crime rates can rise under those circumstances.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 08:57:56 PM by Bobby5280 »
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1355 on: March 09, 2019, 09:13:18 PM »

I'm one of those people who is going to oppose a tax increase for whatever the reason anyway.

Ah yes, you're one of those people who support the nonsensical notion of "no new taxes" but demand more services/proper maintenance of existing stuff from your government anyway.

Ah yes, you're one of those people who support the asinine notion that everyone who opposes new taxes is some sort of hypocrite who doesn't want to pay for the services they receive from government.

Only a royal jerk tells someone who is campaigning for tolled highways that he's "demand more services/proper maintenance of existing stuff" from government and refusing to pay for it.

Quote
You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.

Traffic cameras are a terrible substitute for actual law enforcement.

Who said anything about replacing law enforcement with traffic cameras? You clearly have a problem with putting words in people's mouths regardless of what they actually say.
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1356 on: March 09, 2019, 09:27:46 PM »

More people would support higher taxes over tolls on all the interstates. That's a f-a-c-t.

Citation needed. Spelling out the word "fact" doesn't make your statement a fact. (What's with the spelling anyway? Are you talking to a child?)

Ah yes. Let's slap a $40 car toll / $60+ truck toll on I-10 / I-12 across Louisiana for a theoretical benefit that really doesn't exist.

Ah yes, let's listen to someone in Virginia tell us what will and won't work in Louisiana.

The only thing it will do is place a burden on thousands of people daily, for almost no reason besides... raising money for a hypothetical program?

Charging people for using the public infrastructure. That was cool right up to the post right before yours, but apparently it's not cool anymore?

If you love tolls so much, go live somewhere like Dallas, Houston, Southern California, and a lot of other places that are filled with tolls roads left and right.

Again, with what authority do you, as someone who lives in Virginia, lecture someone who lives in Louisiana about their situation? Include with your answer an explanation for the pro-tax people in here why we should *not* have to pay for the infrastructure that we use.
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1357 on: March 09, 2019, 09:37:24 PM »

Quote from: jbnv
That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles.
The fact there's plenty of convenience stores and truck stops along the exits of Louisiana Interstates should provide at least some proof long distance motorists are filling up at least some of the time there.

Quote from: jbnv
You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.
Regarding the funding of highway patrol, most states do that directly from the state budget. ... A highway patrol reliant on toll revenue or fuel taxes would be prone to all kinds of budget shortfalls during hard times.

It's like you're deliberately omitting key parts of my hypotheticals and ideas for the sole purpose of shutting me down and making me look stupid. Seems to be a trend here.
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SSOWorld

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1358 on: March 09, 2019, 09:37:46 PM »

Tone it down and be civil guys
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sprjus4

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1359 on: March 09, 2019, 11:29:42 PM »

Are you talking to a child?
I feel like it.

Ah yes, let's listen to someone in Virginia tell us what will and won't work in Louisiana.
Fair point, but I'm just saying any legislation proposed that would enact tolls along 250 miles of interstate highway with no improvements in return (widening, interchange reconfigurations, traffic improvements, etc) would likely not go very far. From experience from North Carolina with I-95 and VA with I-81, even with massive expansions proposed, tolling was still unpopular and didn't get far.

Charging people for using the public infrastructure.
Isn't that what a gas / fuel tax does? Increase it to the proper rate to match inflation, and overtime the benefits will sink it.

Again, with what authority do you, as someone who lives in Virginia, lecture someone who lives in Louisiana about their situation? Include with your answer an explanation for the pro-tax people in here why we should *not* have to pay for the infrastructure that we use.
Umm, because our taxes pay for them already? Whenever I fuel up at the gas station, I'm paying gas / fuel tax, which goes towards the maintenance of the roadways. Not to mention, the interstates were built decades ago, and no massive expansion is proposed from what you're saying. I've driven I-10 / I-12 through Louisiana many times, I don't see how tolling for additional enforcement, CCTV cameras, and maintenance can be justified in any way. The way I feel about Louisiana I feel the exact same way about Virginia & NC with the I-95 / I-81 tolling proposed. It didn't go anywhere, a lot of people including myself were opposed to it, especially truckers, and it didn't get far. I-95 tolling is off the table as NCDOT is now funding it with traditional methods (oh, would you look at that, something NOT tolled!), and I-81 is back and forth. It was proposed back in January for the umpteenth time, yet didn't get anywhere.
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Anthony_JK

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1360 on: March 10, 2019, 05:39:26 AM »

Getting this back to the original point of tolling the Lafayette Connector/I-49 South...

As I mentioned earlier, LADOTD had already launched a toll study which compared tolling all of the I-49 South corridor with tolling only portions (such as the "free" sections of the US 90 freeway between Morgan City and Raceland, or the segment of US 90 just south of Lafayette), and they found that even in the best case of tolling the entire corridor, they'd still get to about 50% of the revenue needed to complete the project.

I actually would not be opposed to (though I wouldn't really like it) some tolling of some segments of a freewayized US 90 where parallel one-way frontage roads would be built (similar to the Texas tollway setup), especially from Lafayette southward to New Iberia, if it helped expedite completion of the entire project.

No way in Hell, though, would a tolled Connector through Lafayette ever pass muster; the public would probably call for a tolled Teche Ridge Bypass or an expedited LRX than ever see the Connector built as a toll facility. There's already enough opposition to the Connector as is without adding the additional barrier of a toll.

And as for the "no new taxes" stand? Let our infrastructure in Louisiana rot to the point of actual collapse, and then call me with the idea that public money shouldn't be used for public infrastructure. If Texas can reject the Trans Texas Corridor scam and build the I-69 Colossus fully with public funds, I do think Louisiana can find a way to publically fund I-49 South.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1361 on: March 11, 2019, 11:03:15 AM »

Quote from: jbnv
It's like you're deliberately omitting key parts of my hypotheticals and ideas for the sole purpose of shutting me down and making me look stupid. Seems to be a trend here.

What am I omitting, in specifics? I expained my earlier points pretty clearly -like it being a bad idea to fund highway patrols through toll revenue and how it would be politically suicidal for a lawmaker to stick toll gates on highways previously built and funded through gasoline taxes. A brand new superhighway can have tolls stuck on it. So can brand new "Lexus Lanes" in cities like Dallas. That's just the way it is. You're making the broad claim out of state drivers aren't filling up at Louisiana gas stations. I do not agree with that at all. If you feel like I'm trying to make you look stupid that's something you're inventing in your own head. I'm no troll.

I also think it is 100% contradictory to be in favor for sticking tollgates on existing highways yet be 100% against any fuel tax increases. Both function as a tax. Just to add a little thing to that: toll revenue only goes to maintaining a turnpike system. Unlike gasoline taxes, toll revenue does nothing to help maintain all the surface highways and streets connecting to the turnpike. Plenty of cars and trucks from out of state put wear on tear on roads in the vicinity of turnpike exits.

Quote from: Anthony_JK
As I mentioned earlier, LADOTD had already launched a toll study which compared tolling all of the I-49 South corridor with tolling only portions (such as the "free" sections of the US 90 freeway between Morgan City and Raceland, or the segment of US 90 just south of Lafayette), and they found that even in the best case of tolling the entire corridor, they'd still get to about 50% of the revenue needed to complete the project.

One obvious problem is many long distance drivers headed for New Orleans Westbank suburbs like Gretna would just shun-pike US-90 if it was tolled. They would continue to use I-10 right through the downtown district to get to the Westbank instead. That would defeat one of the purposes of upgrading US-90 to Interstate standards: being a relief route for I-10.

Louisiana could try to use the "cross-pledging" funding method the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority uses for its roads. Technically the toll gates on Oklahoma's toll roads were supposed to come down once the turnpike bonds were paid off. The OTA spreads the costs of maintenance, upgrades and new turnpike segments across the entire system (so there's always some debt that still has to be paid to justify the toll gates remaining in place). Still, the setup depends on having at least a couple turnpikes that are able to turn a profit (the Turner & Will Rogers turnpikes). Otherwise the OTA's budget would drown in red ink. The problem with Louisiana is the busiest highways (I-10 & I-20) have long existed as fuel-tax funded "free" highways. A politician can't stick toll gates on those things in order to cross-pledge funds for a US-90 turnpike, at least not if he wants to avoid political suicide.

Quote from: Anthony_JK
And as for the "no new taxes" stand? Let our infrastructure in Louisiana rot to the point of actual collapse, and then call me with the idea that public money shouldn't be used for public infrastructure. If Texas can reject the Trans Texas Corridor scam and build the I-69 Colossus fully with public funds, I do think Louisiana can find a way to publically fund I-49 South.

Oklahoma finally had to give in and raise fuel taxes. But when the state legislature finally did so it was not out of any concern for the highways. For the first few years that extra fuel tax money is going to help fund teacher pay raises. Oklahoma's public education system has suffered extreme budget cuts. Most of the teachers had gone without any wage increase in over a decade. Our state's teachers are among the least paid in the nation. As a result many of the better teachers have been saying "f*** Oklahoma" and taking jobs elsewhere. That's affecting business. Skilled workers with families aren't very willing to move to a state that hatefully neglects its public education sector. The fuel tax increase was a half-ass way of starting to deal with the problem. But it's misappropriating funds from our streets and highways. The simple fact is the state government handed out a bunch of tax cut candy to voters without having any way to afford it. The cuts did nothing to grow revenue. Instead the state is falling into a deeper disadvantage to neighboring states, like Texas.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:14:17 PM by Bobby5280 »
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1362 on: March 11, 2019, 01:27:34 PM »

Fair point, but I'm just saying any legislation proposed that would enact tolls along 250 miles of interstate highway with no improvements in return (widening, interchange reconfigurations, traffic improvements, etc) would likely not go very far.

The whole point of the tolls should be for the maintenance and improvement of the corridor. :rolleyes: (You're correct, but that should be common sense.)


Charging people for using the public infrastructure.
Isn't that what a gas / fuel tax does?

Indirectly. I prefer to be charged directly for the services that I receive.

I've driven I-10 / I-12 through Louisiana many times, I don't see how tolling for additional enforcement, CCTV cameras, and maintenance can be justified in any way.

Good for you. You haven't lived here for 30 years. You don't commute from Hammond to Baton Rouge every workday. When you take a road trip to visit family/friends, can you cross long bridges without anticipating that some accident or problem will have it blocked for hours? That's my experience. Not fair of you to deny it.
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1363 on: March 11, 2019, 02:13:39 PM »

You're making the broad claim out of state drivers aren't filling up at Louisiana gas stations.

No, I'm not. Reread what I actually wrote: "That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles."

I also think it is 100% contradictory to be in favor for sticking tollgates on existing highways yet be 100% against any fuel tax increases. Both function as a tax. Just to add a little thing to that: toll revenue only goes to maintaining a turnpike system. Unlike gasoline taxes, toll revenue does nothing to help maintain all the surface highways and streets connecting to the turnpike. Plenty of cars and trucks from out of state put wear on tear on roads in the vicinity of turnpike exits.

First, I never said that we absolutely have to eliminate gas taxes. Second, I made it rather clear why I'm not going to support increased taxes. This is a complex issue and will require multiple sources of revenue. I'll say it right now so everyone understands me: I am not endorsing and will not endorse a repeal of gasoline taxes. However, I'm not taking the option of tolling off the table either. You can choose to do so, in which case we'll keep having this discussion because I won't drop tolling as an option.

Quote from: Anthony_JK
As I mentioned earlier, LADOTD had already launched a toll study which compared tolling all of the I-49 South corridor with tolling only portions (such as the "free" sections of the US 90 freeway between Morgan City and Raceland, or the segment of US 90 just south of Lafayette), and they found that even in the best case of tolling the entire corridor, they'd still get to about 50% of the revenue needed to complete the project.

That's 50% of the revenue that they'll have to get from somewhere. Might as well get it from the tolls.

Quote from: Anthony_JK
And as for the "no new taxes" stand? Let our infrastructure in Louisiana rot to the point of actual collapse, and then call me with the idea that public money shouldn't be used for public infrastructure. If Texas can reject the Trans Texas Corridor scam and build the I-69 Colossus fully with public funds, I do think Louisiana can find a way to publically fund I-49 South.

OK. Good luck with that as more and more taxpayers leave the state because the state can't get its stuff together. Guess where a lot of those taxpayers have already moved to?

One obvious problem is many long distance drivers headed for New Orleans Westbank suburbs like Gretna would just shun-pike US-90 if it was tolled. They would continue to use I-10 right through the downtown district to get to the Westbank instead. That would defeat one of the purposes of upgrading US-90 to Interstate standards: being a relief route for I-10.

If it's worth their time to sit in traffic in Baton Rouge and New Orleans. (For that matter, they can also take LA 1 through Donaldsonville to LA 3127 to Boutte. Every route has its cost in time, and odds are, by your logic, the people taking those free routes will be stopping at gas stations to fill up anyway. ;) )

The problem with Louisiana is the busiest highways (I-10 & I-20) have long existed as fuel-tax funded "free" highways. A politician can't stick toll gates on those things in order to cross-pledge funds for a US-90 turnpike, at least not if he wants to avoid political suicide.

Maybe, just maybe, we made a huge mistake as a nation in making our interstate highway system free instead of tolled. We're paying the price for that now, not just financially but in political gridlock as well.

For the first few years that extra fuel tax money is going to help fund teacher pay raises. ... But it's misappropriating funds from our streets and highways.

Congratulations, you understand why I resist the call to raise taxes.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1364 on: March 11, 2019, 02:22:31 PM »



Maybe, just maybe, we made a huge mistake as a nation in making our interstate highway system free instead of tolled. We're paying the price for that now, not just financially but in political gridlock as well.
One could also easily make an argument that we're paying the price for it due to not raising our gas taxes as many states including the federal gas tax have not been raised for decade or more.

Think about it this way. What if we originally tolled the interstates but never or barely raised the tolls like we have haven't with the gas tax. We would be in the same situation we are now. If anytime a toll increase was proposed, your logic would be the same thing as saying "I am opposed to any toll increase" and "we should tax gasoline to find the revenue."

PS, I'm not against tollways. I am against tolling of any interstate corridor. If a state wants a freeway to be a tolled facility, then no interstate designation.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1365 on: March 11, 2019, 02:41:25 PM »

Quote from: jbnv
No, I'm not. Reread what I actually wrote: "That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles."

Again: out of state motorists don't all travel 250 miles or less within Louisiana when crossing the state. I gave you my own personal example using the I-20, I-49, I-10/12 combo.

Quote from: jbnv
First, I never said that we absolutely have to eliminate gas taxes. Second, I made it rather clear why I'm not going to support increased taxes. This is a complex issue and will require multiple sources of revenue. I'll say it right now so everyone understands me: I am not endorsing and will not endorse a repeal of gasoline taxes. However, I'm not taking the option of tolling off the table either. You can choose to do so, in which case we'll keep having this discussion because I won't drop tolling as an option.

Not I or anyone else claimed you said anything about repealing fuel taxes. But the notion of being flatly against any fuel tax increases is 100% absurd. That stance assumes there is no such thing as price inflation related to road building and maintenance costs. If fuel taxes can't be adjusted according to inflationary pressure then the budget for road building and maintenance eventually goes bust. That's what has been happening here in Oklahoma. A bunch of "no new taxes ever" morons are living in some fantasy land thinking 1993 levels of funding are going to cover cost levels of 2019.

Quote from: jbnv
Maybe, just maybe, we made a huge mistake as a nation in making our interstate highway system free instead of tolled. We're paying the price for that now, not just financially but in political gridlock as well.

The question of whether to put up tolls or not was an issue with new Interstates over 60 years ago when the system was just getting started. Not every super highway needs tolls on it. Here in Oklahoma we have lots of toll roads. But most of the super highways in urban areas are free access. I-44 has free access in Lawton-Fort Sill, OKC and Tulsa. That's because traffic jams happen on more than just freeways.

Quote from: jbnv
Congratulations, you understand why I resist the call to raise taxes.

You're clutching to some hard-lined ideology rather than anything based on numerical financial math. For one thing streets and highways are far more than just Interstates. Gotta pay for building and upkeep on those somehow.

Here in Oklahoma we have plenty of "tea party" types who think the state can just magically pull extra money out of its backside to pay for everything and then some. All they want is more tax cuts, no matter how badly the state's budget is already busted due to the previous cuts. Their ideology is not based on any principals of math. It's like expecting someone making $7.25 per hour to afford the mortgage on a 2000 square foot house and payments on a $40000 car. They just throw out the old, vague "we have to cut back on waste" crap without any specifics of which services, jobs or bit of state-funded infrastructure to eliminate.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:44:07 PM by Bobby5280 »
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1366 on: March 11, 2019, 02:45:04 PM »

One could also easily make an argument that we're paying the price for it due to not raising our gas taxes as many states including the federal gas tax have not been raised for decade or more.

Think about it this way. What if we originally tolled the interstates but never or barely raised the tolls like we have haven't with the gas tax. We would be in the same situation we are now. If anytime a toll increase was proposed, your logic would be the same thing as saying "I am opposed to any toll increase" and "we should tax gasoline to find the revenue."

Fair point. Yes, the costs do increase. The public needs to know how the costs have increased, and trust the government enough to either vote for the taxes directly to elect representatives to pass the taxes.

(Ironically, our governments are more likely to talk about how much money the lottery put into education or whatever cause it is funded than to do the same for either tolls or gas taxes. It shouldn't be too hard to say "Existing taxes raised $X million for roads. We need $Y million to complete these outstanding projects. We can raise that money by raising the gas tax per gallon by Z cents." Just a simple statement would do a lot to help build the will to raise the taxes.)
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1367 on: March 11, 2019, 03:21:54 PM »

Quote from: jbnv
No, I'm not. Reread what I actually wrote: "That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles."
Again: out of state motorists don't all travel 250 miles or less within Louisiana when crossing the state. I gave you my own personal example using the I-20, I-49, I-10/12 combo.
I wasn't talking about your route. I was talking about the 10/12 corridor.

That's what has been happening here in Oklahoma. A bunch of "no new taxes ever" morons are living in some fantasy land thinking 1993 levels of funding are going to cover cost levels of 2019.
More likely they don't trust the state government. Calling them "morons" "living in a fantasy land" isn't going to restore or build that trust.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1368 on: March 11, 2019, 04:12:26 PM »

Quote from: jbnv
No, I'm not. Reread what I actually wrote: "That's a huge assumption. The I-10/12 corridor through Louisiana is only 250 miles. That's pretty easy to cross on one tank for modern lightweight vehicles."
Again: out of state motorists don't all travel 250 miles or less within Louisiana when crossing the state. I gave you my own personal example using the I-20, I-49, I-10/12 combo.
I wasn't talking about your route. I was talking about the 10/12 corridor.

That's what has been happening here in Oklahoma. A bunch of "no new taxes ever" morons are living in some fantasy land thinking 1993 levels of funding are going to cover cost levels of 2019.
More likely they don't trust the state government. Calling them "morons" "living in a fantasy land" isn't going to restore or build that trust.
Though I can understand their hesitation of trusting the government to spend their money from increased taxes wisely, I am consistently frustrated with this crowd as they never seem to place forth any plan of their own dealing with the corruption they insist exists and pushing forth a plan to rebuild our infrastructure. In the end, the users of the road end up on the shit end of the stick while they anti tax crowd usually just shakes their finger “no” at everything. It gets very frustrating.
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jbnv

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1369 on: March 11, 2019, 04:33:08 PM »

Good problem-solvers are hard to find. And they're usually too busy actually solving problems to jump into politics, or lack the social polish to want to jump into politics. Unfortunately the people we do end up with in politics usually aren't very good at actually solving problems but are pretty good at talking about solving problems.

(I'm a problem solver, I've watched politics for some 30 years now, and I don't have a quick answer to solving this problem.)
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Bobby5280

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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1370 on: March 12, 2019, 01:02:50 AM »

Quote
I wasn't talking about your route. I was talking about the 10/12 corridor.

People from out of state may often drive more than just that corridor. You're trying to paint the situation in a very linear manner. I already provided my own personal experiences that refute your example. New Orleans is a major tourism destination. Anyone driving there from Texas or other nearby states is bound to have to fill up the tank at least once in Louisiana.

Quote
More likely they don't trust the state government. Calling them "morons" "living in a fantasy land" isn't going to restore or build that trust.

People here taking that kind of stance only see in absolutes. They'll only "trust" the gub'ment when they don't have to pay any taxes at all. Let those commie/socialist public school teachers live on the funds of prayer and flag waving. Same goes or anyone less than affluent in need of any kind of public assistance. Especially anyone who isn't white. Their stance is one of complete nihilism. And it's not even realistic at that. Some of these folks want public schools turned into Sunday School during the work week. Others just don't want any of their property taxes going to educating other people's kids. Or they don't want to pay any property taxes at all. They think the government can create all that funding some other magical way. The problem with that myopic, extreme selfish view is that most of these "no new taxes" old farts depend greatly on "Uncle Sugar" to provide plenty of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid funding for their sorry asses. Smoked too many cigarettes? Oh, I need free lung cancer treatment now!. That government funding will not exist without a working age tax base in-state to contribute to it. When Oklahoma gives its young people every reason to get the living hell out of the state they're not going to stick around.
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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1371 on: March 12, 2019, 09:54:35 AM »

Let those commie/socialist public school teachers live on the funds of prayer and flag waving. Same goes or anyone less than affluent in need of any kind of public assistance. Especially anyone who isn't white.

OK, we clearly don't have to take you seriously any further.
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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1372 on: March 12, 2019, 10:15:11 AM »

I'm one of those people who is going to oppose a tax increase for whatever the reason anyway.

Ah yes, you're one of those people who support the nonsensical notion of "no new taxes" but demand more services/proper maintenance of existing stuff from your government anyway.

Quote
You missed the part where I proposed using tolls to help pay for highway patrol as well as maintenance. Furthermore, all the extra cameras will give traffickers pause about ignoring the law. It's a highly theoretical benefit but one worth considering.

Traffic cameras are a terrible substitute for actual law enforcement.

Agreed, they are illegal in many states.  If you get pulled over you can discuss and may get a warning.  Mailing you a ticket when you may not be the driver, etc, is ridiculous. 
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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1373 on: March 12, 2019, 10:26:47 AM »

Agreed, they are illegal in many states.  If you get pulled over you can discuss and may get a warning.  Mailing you a ticket when you may not be the driver, etc, is ridiculous.

So when my ex-wife went through an electronic toll without a pass, and the agency sent me a large fine for it, I didn't actually have to pay it? (I love how tolling agencies could find your car out of state 11 years ago, yet there's absolutely no way to use new surveillance technology to reduce other forms of crime today.)
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Re: I49 in LA
« Reply #1374 on: March 12, 2019, 05:57:06 PM »

yet there's absolutely no way to use new surveillance technology to reduce other forms of crime today.)

Go ask the UK how well that surveillance state is working for them.
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