The Wildfires thread

[gonealookin]

On this subject, living at Tahoe, this is a threat we live with every year, and we're just getting into the peak threat period from August until the start of significant precipitation in mid-October or so.  I keep a "Go Bag", an old backpack, full of a week's worth of clothes that have seen most of their useful life go by but are still wearable.  The backpack is within about 10 feet of the front door.  There's also an obsolete Chromebook in there which could be used as an alternative to the phone.

There's also a written list right there of things to grab.  The first three items on it are "Wallet, car keys, phone".  That all seems like "Well duh", but this is anticipating a panic situation where I literally have two minutes to get out, so it would be good to look at a list rather than trying to think rationally.

A couple years ago we did come under an evacuation order for the Caldor Fire.  It was several miles away so there were a couple hours available between evacuation order and departure, so packing the car for that was more like packing for a vacation.  That fire didn't get a whole lot closer, and the evacuation order was lifted after about 3-4 days.

[Max Rockatansky]

The former Connecticut resident in me still snickers at the name "Caldor Fire."   Did Gottschalks ever have a store in the Tahoe region.

[gonealookin]

Laihaina was basically destroyed.  That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.

Oof.  Wonder if their banyan tree survived.

It is still standing; whether it survives I do not know

NYT on the banyan tree:

Amid the charred ruins of Lahaina, one of the historic town's cherished landmarks is still standing: a 150-year-old banyan tree. But it appears to have been badly singed by the fires that devastated Lahaina, on the west coast of Maui, and it is unclear whether the tree will survive.
...
"It's said that if the roots are healthy, it will likely grow back,"  county officials said in an update about the tree late Wednesday. "But it looks burned."

[bing101]

https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-maui-lahaina-f5a7047d407f836f89e90dd7f10faa94

Update 53 people are found dead due to Maui Fires.

[gonealookin]

When I went to Maui last December I stayed in Kihei as usual, but with a fairly early-arriving flight I went over to Lahaina for lunch before checking in at the condo. I went to the Kohola Brewery for a bite and a pint or two. It's the building that's belching all the black smoke in this photo (from the LA Times).



There's a Foodland that looks like it survived (big white roof with a couple adjacent blue roofs, toward lower left). The bigger white roof is a parking garage to serve all that adjacent commercial area, every bit of which looks like it's ashes, including the whole Front Street district (makai of the Foodland). The X things at the bottom were a big vacation condo place operated by Outrigger.

[triplemultiplex]

Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone.
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.

[Rothman]

Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone.
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.

^This.

[Brandon]

It's even worse than it looked yesterday.  The whole town is basically gone.  Just wow.
And just like Paradise, there are very limited evacuation routes, so I shudder thinking about the folks who got cut off from their only direction of escape.

The Lahaina fire looks more like an urban fire than a wildfire, and the photos look like those taken of Chicago after the 1871 blaze.

[bing101]

Damn everything seen in Maui is gone. Yes I expect wildfires to happen here in California but in this case its worse for Hawaii because its the largest fire in the state. Also Hawaii isn't known for having fires like the one they just had.

[DriverDave]

Death toll is up to 67 now.

[Bruce]

Damn everything seen in Maui is gone. Yes I expect wildfires to happen here in California but in this case its worse for Hawaii because its the largest fire in the state. Also Hawaii isn't known for having fires like the one they just had.

*In this part of Maui.

Firefighting in Hawaii, like many other parts of island life, is complicated by the logistics. Specialized equipment would normally be driven in and able to aid the fight as it worsens, but with the distance and expense, only firefighters can be flown in at a good pace.

[Max Rockatansky]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane. 

[kalvado]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

[Max Rockatansky]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes.  But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30.  Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.

[gonealookin]

Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone.
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.

As to the residential, nobody builds little 3 bedroom, 1300 square foot bungalows anymore, especially in a place like that.  Everything will be rebuilt twice the size with the intention of selling to affluent people from the U.S. mainland who want to use them as second homes.  I'd think there will be interest from Canadians and Japanese as well, who form significant portions of Hawaii's tourist population.  You work in the West Maui tourist industry at a hotel or restaurant or wherever and can't afford one of the big new places?  Tough, go find a place in Kahului and commute every day.  One hopes the local government makes sure there's sufficient affordable housing as part of the rebuild, but money talks.

[kalvado]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes.  But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30.  Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.

From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider

[Max Rockatansky]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes.  But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30.  Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.

From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider

60 MPH winds over deep water is definitely going to make for rough seas.  There was no way even in the best circumstances that anyone was going to make to Laihaina in time once the fire got out of control.

[brad2971]

Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone.
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.

As to the residential, nobody builds little 3 bedroom, 1300 square foot bungalows anymore, especially in a place like that.  Everything will be rebuilt twice the size with the intention of selling to affluent people from the U.S. mainland who want to use them as second homes.  I'd think there will be interest from Canadians and Japanese as well, who form significant portions of Hawaii's tourist population.  You work in the West Maui tourist industry at a hotel or restaurant or wherever and can't afford one of the big new places?  Tough, go find a place in Kahului and commute every day.  One hopes the local government makes sure there's sufficient affordable housing as part of the rebuild, but money talks.

This would be a good time for Maui County to look toward other places that experienced near-total wipeouts related to fires and other natural disasters, when it comes to how they manage rebuilding. For example, 18 years after Katrina, despite the "Great Wall of New Orleans" being constructed, St Bernard Parish still has 23000 less people than its 2000 Census high.

When it comes to fires, Paradise (CA) lost somewhere around 11000 homes in the Nov. 2018 Camp Fire. Nearly five years later, only about 2400 units (single and multi-family) have been replaced. Point is, it's going to take some time, and in that "some time," the second-home crowd will likely look to other places before accepting a modern home in Lahaina.

[brad2971]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane. 

As naturally beautiful as Maui really is, and as Paradise (CA) has demonstrated these last few years, that sort of isolation is going to hinder a lot of rebuilding efforts. And this would probably be a good time to note that, while the Lahaina Civic Center apparently survived the fires, having the Maui (college basketball) Invitational at the civic center is probably not a very good idea for this year, or the next 3-4 years.

There's a reason why the Coco Palms Resort on Kauai sits abandoned and has not been rebuilt, even 31 years after Hurricane Iniki "remodeled" Kauai.

[Max Rockatansky]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane. 

As naturally beautiful as Maui really is, and as Paradise (CA) has demonstrated these last few years, that sort of isolation is going to hinder a lot of rebuilding efforts. And this would probably be a good time to note that, while the Lahaina Civic Center apparently survived the fires, having the Maui (college basketball) Invitational at the civic center is probably not a very good idea for this year, or the next 3-4 years.

Fedeal Aid can certainly go a long way in terms of building/rebuilding things.  That certainly has historically been true everywhere in Hawaii since the World War II era. 

Regarding the Maui Invitational, I see it differently.  Why not still host the event as a show community strength and solidarity?

[jeffandnicole]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes.  But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30.  Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.

From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider

Where does such a ship dock?  The area has a small marina, but nothing that would substantially allow a mass evacuation.

It's also notable that a mass evacuation really wasn't possible in this case.  The winds quickly carried the fire into town.  Several people that died were stuck in their cars.  And many of them were near the same marina area which would be used for the evacuation you are suggesting.

[tdindy88]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane. 

As naturally beautiful as Maui really is, and as Paradise (CA) has demonstrated these last few years, that sort of isolation is going to hinder a lot of rebuilding efforts. And this would probably be a good time to note that, while the Lahaina Civic Center apparently survived the fires, having the Maui (college basketball) Invitational at the civic center is probably not a very good idea for this year, or the next 3-4 years.

Fedeal Aid can certainly go a long way in terms of building/rebuilding things.  That certainly has historically been true everywhere in Hawaii since the World War II era. 

Regarding the Maui Invitational, I see it differently.  Why not still host the event as a show community strength and solidarity?

Probably not this year for the Maui Invitational. There won't be much infrastructure in the area to probably support it. Though on a symbolic level the sooner they could host it the better. Does Kahului have any basketball gyms that could host it? Otherwise I'd imagine it'd be in Honolulu, maybe at the university that's supposed to be the hosts for the event.

I feel devastated for Lahaina. I was fortunate to visit what historians will likely refer to as Old Lahania back in 2019 and it seemed like a very interesting town. I was even there on a day when they tested the tsunami sirens. Interesting that they weren't activated on the day of the town's actual destruction.

Maui tour books are going to need a complete rewrite for the foreseeable future as West Maui is changed forever. I hope that a New Lahaina can take its place someday but they are going to have to drop most of the historic aspects of that town, the history is now history. Lahaina will have to completely reinvent itself like Chicago back in 1871. This could be a chance to design the town to be environmentally friendly and with a minimal impact on the environment around it. They seem to have a clean slate to do this and hopefully have housing for the locals (heavy emphasis on the locals) to create a new town to call home. At least Hawaii has a strong sense of community with its ohana concept. But many of us will probably be gone by the time this town can start resembling what it once was. Hopefully that giant banyan tree does make it and can serve as a focal point of the New Lahaina.

Since this is a roads forum, I was wondering if this could be a chance to finish the Lahaina Bypass (I remember it being open only halfway back in 2019 with a road leading back to Highway 30.) A full bypass could help keep tourist traffic (heading to places further north) away from Lahaina as it is slowly rebuilt and maybe they could redesign Highway 30 through town to be a more proper business route with fewer lanes. Might as well make the city as friendly for the pedestrians as possible when redesigning it.

Just a few thoughts. My Aloha to Lahaina.

[bing101]

https://apnews.com/article/maui-hawaii-fires-lahaina-destruction-evacuation-38ec0d6a5c610035a0a72b804fcdffe0
80 people found dead so far from the fires on Maui.

[kalvado]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes.  But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30.  Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.

From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider

Where does such a ship dock?  The area has a small marina, but nothing that would substantially allow a mass evacuation.

It's also notable that a mass evacuation really wasn't possible in this case.  The winds quickly carried the fire into town.  Several people that died were stuck in their cars.  And many of them were near the same marina area which would be used for the evacuation you are suggesting.

Apparently Lahaina had been a port of call for cruise lines. Not sure if it is direct docking or shuttle to shore, but apparently something was done to move them. As it was mentioned, rough see certainly wasnt going to help.

[kkt]

Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is.  HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340.  Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle.  It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.

Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?

On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes.  But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30.  Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.

From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider

Where does such a ship dock?  The area has a small marina, but nothing that would substantially allow a mass evacuation.

It's also notable that a mass evacuation really wasn't possible in this case.  The winds quickly carried the fire into town.  Several people that died were stuck in their cars.  And many of them were near the same marina area which would be used for the evacuation you are suggesting.

Yes, it would have to have been helicoptering people onto an aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier offshore.  Or dinghies.  Slow, either way.