The Wildfires thread

[Brandon]

^^^

Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s.  For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past.  We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards.  Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there.  Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

We do have control over tree and brush growth, as well as growth of grasslands.  The forest preserve districts and the USDA (Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie) here (Chicagoland) do proscribed burns on the grasslands and marshes just about every year to ensure they don't get out of control.  When dry (as it is currently - our drought is about as bad as that around Lahaina right now), it is easy for a grass fire to get out of control if these burns aren't done early in the season.

[kalvado]

^^^

Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s.  For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past.  We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards.  Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there.  Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

We do have control over tree and brush growth, as well as growth of grasslands.  The forest preserve districts and the USDA (Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie) here (Chicagoland) do proscribed burns on the grasslands and marshes just about every year to ensure they don't get out of control.  When dry (as it is currently - our drought is about as bad as that around Lahaina right now), it is easy for a grass fire to get out of control if these burns aren't done early in the season.

Well, I have hard time thinking of such a burn in a city....

[Brandon]

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

We do have control over tree and brush growth, as well as growth of grasslands.  The forest preserve districts and the USDA (Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie) here (Chicagoland) do proscribed burns on the grasslands and marshes just about every year to ensure they don't get out of control.  When dry (as it is currently - our drought is about as bad as that around Lahaina right now), it is easy for a grass fire to get out of control if these burns aren't done early in the season.

Well, I have hard time thinking of such a burn in a city....

The grassland where the Lahaina fire seems to have started is just outside the city.  For comparison, we have proscribed burns in areas surrounded by homes, such as this: https://goo.gl/maps/bwzEGHqhZGmjdyt68

[Max Rockatansky]

It's not super uncommon to see grass burns in the Central Valley.  There was some large ones done in Kings County this year after all the rains during last winter caused a large grass bloom.  Grass tends to burn and spread with a lot of speed, even in non-windy conditions.   

[bing101]

https://www.kcra.com/article/highway-20-partially-vegetation-fire-clearlake-oaks/44803421
Update there is a wildfire reported in Clearlake, CA affecting CA-20.

[Scott5114]

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.

[Max Rockatansky]

There is least one burned building in Laihaina that has a largely intact shell given it was clearly constructed from some sort of brick material.  Trouble is brick tends to not be popular construction material anymore in seismically active areas given it tends to be inflexible and prone to collapse during earthquakes.  Most of the older brick and abode buildings left in California are in the Sierra Nevada Foothills where large earthquakes aren't especially common.  Many display burn scars from previous fires they have been part of. 

[bing101]

https://www.khq.com/fires/ridge-creek-fire-near-hayden-lake-burns-over-2-400-acres-with-level-1-evacuation/article_f3a78c02-33bc-11ee-98fc-573882f3f6ad.html
Here is an ongoing wildfire in Hayden Lake. This is currently being fought as of this posting.

[Bruce]

https://www.khq.com/fires/ridge-creek-fire-near-hayden-lake-burns-over-2-400-acres-with-level-1-evacuation/article_f3a78c02-33bc-11ee-98fc-573882f3f6ad.html
Here is an ongoing wildfire in Washington State. This is currently being fought as of this posting.

Hayden Lake is not in Washington.

We have four major fires burning: the Sourdough Fire near Diablo Lake in the North Cascades National Park Complex (which is now belching smoke that is reaching the Puget Sound basin); the Eagle Bluff Fire near the Canadian border, which is now at 16K acres but 80% contained; the Wawawai Fire near the Lower Granite Dam on the Snake River; and the Sunset Fire in the outskirts of Spokane.

There's a heat dome starting to form over the Northwest (and temperatures have risen into dangerous levels), so we're not expecting an improvement in conditions anytime soon.

The state is now able to conduct some prescribed burns, which are scheduled for this fall if weather permits: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/epa-clears-wa-to-do-more-controlled-burns-to-prevent-wildfires/

[Bruce]

Interesting that they weren't activated on the day of the town's actual destruction.

I heard on BBC Newshour that the alarms were supposed to be used, but there was a fear that it'd be misinterpreted as a tsunami warning and people would go up into the hills, straight into the path of the fires, since that's the standard way of fleeing a tsunami.

[bing101]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/evacuation-orders-for-parts-of-northwest-territories-residents-airlifted-away-from-threat-of-wildfires-1.6518611?clipId=104062

Canada's Northwest Territories are on evacuation orders over wildfires.

https://news.yahoo.com/wildfires-rage-canadas-northwest-territories-214302249.html

Also Hawaii Electric is sued over the Wildfire response. Yes this sounds Familiar if you are in NorCal the last time a utility company was sued over a wildfire response was PG&E's response to the areas wildfires.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/pge-to-pay-55-million-for-two-massive-california-wildfires

https://www.cbsnews.com/atlanta/news/hawaiian-electric-stock-plunges-40-after-lawsuit-alleges-it-failed-to-shut-power-off-ahead-of-the-maui-wildfires/

[Brandon]

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.

That was the solution for Chicago after the fire in 1871.  They do not allow any more wooden buildings by ordinance.

[roadman65]

There is least one burned building in Laihaina that has a largely intact shell given it was clearly constructed from some sort of brick material.  Trouble is brick tends to not be popular construction material anymore in seismically active areas given it tends to be inflexible and prone to collapse during earthquakes.  Most of the older brick and abode buildings left in California are in the Sierra Nevada Foothills where large earthquakes aren't especially common.  Many display burn scars from previous fires they have been part of. 

That one lone building wasn't a church?  Cause I'm seeing some social media post that May Maria didn't get damaged at all during the destruction. The church BTW is one named after the Virgin Mary, so it could be a typical ego boasting religious person bragging. Or made up stuff as FB Fact Check only weighs in if it's Trump related.

I've tested FB Fact Check by posting what a great Yankee pitcher Jackie Robinson was. Of course Robinson was a Dodger and not a pitcher, but Fact Check didn't censor my post for false info.

[gonealookin]

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.

I think what happens to a building built of non-combustible materials in these "firestorm" situations, where the fire generates its own wind in addition to what the local climate is providing, is that the heat shatters windows.  The fire gets inside the house that way and everything combustible in there burns the place from the inside out.  You would have to be living in a windowless concrete block bomb shelter to totally avoid property damage.

[kalvado]

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.

I think what happens to a building built of non-combustible materials in these "firestorm" situations, where the fire generates its own wind in addition to what the local climate is providing, is that the heat shatters windows.  The fire gets inside the house that way and everything combustible in there burns the place from the inside out.  You would have to be living in a windowless concrete block bomb shelter to totally avoid property damage.

I would think window glass went a long way since those days. While breaking. Is still possible, today glass only vaguely resemble WWII vintage - and even then firestorm required 2 waves of assault.

[J N Winkler]

One small piece of good news--the death toll in Lahaina has increased by only six (from 93 to 99) as the cadaver dogs have covered an additional 22% of the burned area.  I had been fearing this might prove even deadlier than Cloquet in 1918 (453 perished).

[DriverDave]

There are still thousands unaccounted for. It is likely in the hundreds.

[bing101]

https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/maui-wildfires-deemed-deadliest-u-s-fire-in-past-decade/
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/08/14/with-hundreds-unaccounted-fema-says-wildfire-response-still-search-and-rescue-phase/

Here is the current death toll from Maui.

[bing101]

Here are methods California has done to reduce wildfire risk such as control burns, have cows and goats clear some of the dry brush in high risk areas. Note not sure if these methods were even known to the State of Hawaii prior to their largest wildfires.


https://www.npr.org/2023/08/10/1192905277/goat-grazing-california-wildfire-prevention


https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/controlled-fires-could-actually-save-forests-and-fight-climate-change/

https://nature.berkeley.edu/news/2020/09/benefits-cattle-grazing-reducing-fire-fuels-and-fire-hazard

[bing101]

https://www.kpbs.org/news/environment/2023/08/16/evacuations-ordered-after-winds-whip-northern-california-forest-fire-near-site-of-2022-deadly-blaze

Now Northern California and Southern Oregon faces a wildfire threat.

[bing101]

A Wildfire is reported in Nevada County, CA.

Here is more.

Here is the Lane county Fire in Oregon




https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/wildfire/lookout-fire-lane-county-evacuations/283-53d613c6-f836-4e37-93ca-1a07e446b4ee

[Bruce]

The entire city of Yellowknife is under evacuation due to nearby wildfires: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/16/canada-fires-northwest-territories-wildfires-yellowknife

12-hour convoy to the nearest safe settlement. There's been fuel trucks dispatched along the way to help prevent shortages.

[DriverDave]

Canada now has over 1,000 wildfires total this year.

[bing101]

Update Another wildfire is reported in Hawaii this time in Oahu.


https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hfd-battling-2-alarm-brush-fire-in-wahiawa/


This is under investigation.

[Bruce]

West Kelowna was already under evacuation and now the city proper is seeing the wildfire jump Lake Okanagan.

https://twitter.com/JamieTawil/status/1692409235060252878