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Author Topic: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?  (Read 1926 times)

roadman65

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Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« on: October 08, 2022, 10:20:25 PM »

https://images1.loopnet.com/d2/PdE77u46YNmA9Cz5apWoX2Gi81UW6U7_ct1v__jLpaA/Sunset%20I%2095%20Interchange%20Update.pdf

Article about the present Sunset Avenue and Eastern Avenue Superstreet Project in Nash County that is having the state involved in building a project on two roadways not part of the state road network.
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2022, 11:19:44 PM »

are they not 4-digit secondaries?

oscar

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2022, 11:32:15 PM »

Parts of Sunset Ave. and Eastern Ave. are part of a US 64 business route, AFAIK. They seem to be also designated as SR 1770.

Anyway, NC is one of those states (like VA) with lots of state-maintained secondary routes. Some might seem to be minor local roads, but the DOT is stuck with them.
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roadman65

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2022, 11:34:53 PM »

Well in Florida, secondary means county. Very rarely does FDOT commit to building something for a county.
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2022, 10:46:28 AM »

Parts of Sunset Ave. and Eastern Ave. are part of a US 64 business route, AFAIK. They seem to be also designated as SR 1770.

Anyway, NC is one of those states (like VA) with lots of state-maintained secondary routes. Some might seem to be minor local roads, but the DOT is stuck with them.

This area is not part of a US 64 BUS route.  I am sure that US 64 was on this portion though.

US 64 BUS (Nashville) ends at Exit 461 with US 64 BUS (Rocky Mount) beginning at the trumpet interchange at Exit 467.  There is no BUS/ALT route in between.
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roadman65

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2022, 11:30:21 AM »

The part of US 64 between Rocky Mount and Nashville was the first, or one of the first, segments of freeway to open for US 64. That may explain why no designation of a Bus/ ALT between those two cities.

I know that I-95 was built between Kenly and Gold Rock after US 64 got built between these two cities, hence why there was never an exchange at Sunset Avenue in the first place.

Though I’m getting the feel NC doesn’t have diamond shields for all its state roads like many state have to have their shields on their assets.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 11:39:30 AM by roadman65 »
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2022, 11:56:40 AM »

Signing of secondary routes is the responsibility of the county or municipality, for whatever reason. Often you'll see address blocks within cities and SR#### in the unincorporated areas.
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2022, 12:25:15 PM »

The idea of maintenance of most routes within a state by a single state DOT goes back to the Great Depression.  There are 5 states that currently do this: South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania.  Of these, many county or municipal governments in SC have asked the state to relinquish secondary road maintenance to them, as SCDOT has not been properly maintaining them.  Spartanburg County is a notable example, as it is one of the largest (size wise).  Not sure if local governments in the other four states have similarly offered to take their roads back.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 10:34:55 PM by wriddle082 »
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jdunlop

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2022, 05:14:35 PM »

Well in Florida, secondary means county. Very rarely does FDOT commit to building something for a county.

There are no county roads in North Carolina.  The State took them over during the great depression, when some counties went Bankrupt.

There was a move to return that level of roads, given the strain on the NCDOT budget, but it went nowhere, as the counties objected.  One change that has been made is that counties are now able to provide funding for transportation projects that they couldnít do before.  This affected things such as sidewalk or bike projects more so than road ones.
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elsmere241

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2022, 06:44:43 PM »

The idea of maintenance of most routes within a state buy a single state DOT goes back to the Great Depression.  There are 5 states that currently do this: South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania.  Of these, many county or municipal governments in SC have asked the state to relinquish secondary road maintenance to them, as SCDOT has not been properly maintaining them.  Spartanburg County is a notable example, as it is one of the largest (size wise).  Not sure if local governments in the other four states have similarly offered to take their roads back.


Delaware too.  I can remember when most rural roads just had county numbers and not names.  I know New Castle County made an effort to name roads in the mid-1980s (and assign street addresses where there was rural route and box).
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roadman65

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2022, 06:57:27 PM »

Does this mean in Downtown Raleigh all the streets are state maintained then?
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2022, 08:01:32 PM »

Does this mean in Downtown Raleigh all the streets are state maintained then?

Not necessarily. It just means you can't make assumptions based on your experience with other states.
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roadman65

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2022, 08:10:02 PM »

Not being sarcastic as I donít think the states would assume maintenance over big cities, but having understanding where the line is drawn of state verses local. Iím assuming that itís city limits under the rule mentioned above where the states took over local roads.
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2022, 10:03:38 PM »

Incorporated cities and towns in NC maintain their own local street networks, with some of the "main/collector" roads still state maintained (similar to how county roads are in other states). In unincorporated areas, just about everything is state secondary. One thing that is very common in NC and I presume the other states with a similar "state maintains just about everything" are private roadways. You basically see them everywhere in NC and they are prominently signed on blade signs. Morrisville, NC goes overboard and clearly marks who maintains roads on every blade.

As for actual maintenance by the state, NCDOT could do better. I have family that lives on a neighborhood street that is state maintained and NCDOT is responsible for maintaining the drainage ditches along the roadway. Requests to clean them and the pipes that go under driveways go unaddressed. Oh and good luck if there is any snowfall in the area, you'll never see a plow or brine/salt treatment. County and local road departments tend to allow focus on smaller problems, hence the moves made in SC.
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Alps

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2022, 12:00:28 AM »

The idea of maintenance of most routes within a state buy a single state DOT goes back to the Great Depression.  There are 5 states that currently do this: South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania.  Of these, many county or municipal governments in SC have asked the state to relinquish secondary road maintenance to them, as SCDOT has not been properly maintaining them.  Spartanburg County is a notable example, as it is one of the largest (size wise).  Not sure if local governments in the other four states have similarly offered to take their roads back.


Delaware too.  I can remember when most rural roads just had county numbers and not names.  I know New Castle County made an effort to name roads in the mid-1980s (and assign street addresses where there was rural route and box).
Delaware isn't quite as bad as the other states.

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2022, 03:14:52 PM »

The idea of maintenance of most routes within a state buy a single state DOT goes back to the Great Depression.  There are 5 states that currently do this: South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania.  Of these, many county or municipal governments in SC have asked the state to relinquish secondary road maintenance to them, as SCDOT has not been properly maintaining them.  Spartanburg County is a notable example, as it is one of the largest (size wise).  Not sure if local governments in the other four states have similarly offered to take their roads back.


Delaware too.  I can remember when most rural roads just had county numbers and not names.  I know New Castle County made an effort to name roads in the mid-1980s (and assign street addresses where there was rural route and box).

That's neat, I've always wondered why so many maps referred to some of those back roads by their maintenance number.
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architect77

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2022, 01:26:42 AM »

I like the continuity in the look and appearance of roads and signage all across the State of North Carolina.

It is apparent however that they are really slacking off in necessary maintenance of damaged signs, guardrails, and most importantly not removing abundant litter everywhere.

Raleigh and Northern Wake are looking really dumpy these days, though I realize so much is going towards Southern Wake's projects.

It interesting to look at old highway maps published by the state since the 1930's. You can see the web of rural roads grow thicker and thicker.

They need to raise the gas tax I think to deal with the eroding value of what's collected currently.
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2022, 06:57:18 PM »

Delaware too.  I can remember when most rural roads just had county numbers and not names.  I know New Castle County made an effort to name roads in the mid-1980s (and assign street addresses where there was rural route and box).

This was due to the coming of 911 emergency services. Many unnamed roads needed actual names and street signs so EMS could locate people. Sadly many people died when an ambulance couldn't locate where someone on an unnamed (and possibly unmapped) road lived.
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jdunlop

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2022, 09:15:12 PM »

I like the continuity in the look and appearance of roads and signage all across the State of North Carolina.

It is apparent however that they are really slacking off in necessary maintenance of damaged signs, guardrails, and most importantly not removing abundant litter everywhere.

Raleigh and Northern Wake are looking really dumpy these days, though I realize so much is going towards Southern Wake's projects.

It interesting to look at old highway maps published by the state since the 1930's. You can see the web of rural roads grow thicker and thicker.

They need to raise the gas tax I think to deal with the eroding value of what's collected currently.

How about I dump a couple of tons of trash on your front yard, and then complain that youíre not cleaning it up fast enough?

Seriously, itís taking more resources than ever to try and keep up, and itís not as high a priority as some other things.  Likewise, maintenance of some things fall behind due to increasing costs and flat revenue.

For the first time, the legislature moved revenue other than the usual sources (gas tax, etc.) to NCDOT to cover the declining revenue.  Nationally, other sources, including a possible mileage tax, are being tested.  Raising the gas tax isnít going to be enough, especially with hybrids and EVs making up a bigger share of the fleet.
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architect77

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2022, 09:36:33 PM »

I like the continuity in the look and appearance of roads and signage all across the State of North Carolina.

It is apparent however that they are really slacking off in necessary maintenance of damaged signs, guardrails, and most importantly not removing abundant litter everywhere.

Raleigh and Northern Wake are looking really dumpy these days, though I realize so much is going towards Southern Wake's projects.

It interesting to look at old highway maps published by the state since the 1930's. You can see the web of rural roads grow thicker and thicker.

They need to raise the gas tax I think to deal with the eroding value of what's collected currently.

How about I dump a couple of tons of trash on your front yard, and then complain that youíre not cleaning it up fast enough?

Seriously, itís taking more resources than ever to try and keep up, and itís not as high a priority as some other things.  Likewise, maintenance of some things fall behind due to increasing costs and flat revenue.

For the first time, the legislature moved revenue other than the usual sources (gas tax, etc.) to NCDOT to cover the declining revenue.  Nationally, other sources, including a possible mileage tax, are being tested.  Raising the gas tax isnít going to be enough, especially with hybrids and EVs making up a bigger share of the fleet.

I would like to find out how to spearhead independent cleanups, as this holiday season visitors to Raleigh will be greeted by trash-strewn shoulders of the Beltline as well as interchanges with Capital Blvd. etc.

Though unpopular, quietly adjusting/raising the gas tax pegged to inflation is the easiest to accomplish without causing public uproar.

A yearly fee for electric vehicles is already in place but it should be raised to match the annual taxes paid by ICE existing vehicles.

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WashuOtaku

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2022, 09:59:09 AM »

If you are ever curious of what roads NCDOT maintains, just pull up their county & bridge maps. All the roads listed on it are what NCDOT maintain.
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2022, 06:02:50 AM »

I would like to find out how to spearhead independent cleanups, as this holiday season visitors to Raleigh will be greeted by trash-strewn shoulders of the Beltline as well as interchanges with Capital Blvd. etc.

https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/environmental/adoptahighway/Pages/default.aspx
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2022, 02:33:16 PM »


Delaware too.  I can remember when most rural roads just had county numbers and not names.  I know New Castle County made an effort to name roads in the mid-1980s (and assign street addresses where there was rural route and box).

This was due to the coming of 911 emergency services. Many unnamed roads needed actual names and street signs so EMS could locate people. Sadly many people died when an ambulance couldn't locate where someone on an unnamed (and possibly unmapped) road lived.

Yeah, the rural roads in the Kansas county I grew up in were unnamed as long as I lived there.  They got names or numbers sometime after 2000 in the interest of emergency response.  And this is definitely not a state where the DOT is responsible for most roads.
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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2022, 01:24:19 PM »

North Carolina has the second highest rural population in the US, another reason why the current DOT arrangement works well.
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architect77

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Re: Why is NCDOT interested in local roads?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2022, 11:34:26 PM »

I would like to find out how to spearhead independent cleanups, as this holiday season visitors to Raleigh will be greeted by trash-strewn shoulders of the Beltline as well as interchanges with Capital Blvd. etc.

https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/environmental/adoptahighway/Pages/default.aspx

Thank you for that link. Unforiunately Wake County has no roads left to adopt. I may have to go out to some particularly bad spots and just pick it up myself.

I do try to keep a small 500 foot street of NC561 clean as you enter Louisburg. To my display, within 2-3 days new trash on the shoulders is visible. I just remind myself how bad it would have accululated without my several cleanups every year.
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