What is "The South?"

[Road Hog]

Arkansas' net Black population is shrinking because like everyone else they're moving out of the Delta, which is almost completely dead economically. Some of them have moved out of state, some to Little Rock and quite a few to the Ozarks (i.e. NWA), which used to be as white bread as it got.

[NWI_Irish96]

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.

Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.

An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.

Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".

A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.

I think the thing that gets me about Missouri is the roads. One of the things I associate with Midwestern places is a pretty good grid of PLSS section-line roads, or at least a bunch of long, straight, compass-oriented roads. Rural northern Missouri has some of that, Kansas City comes close but most of their roads are skewed a bit, St Louis doesn't have much of it at all, and good luck even finding a road that goes straight in the southern half of the state. Missouri's rural road network is overall really similar to what you'd find in the deep or fringe south. Reminds me most of Kentucky.

As far as the racial distribution goes...I don't think you necessarily need a high black population to be considered Southern. Northern AL/GA/eastern TN don't really and you don't really get anyone trying to argue those are something else:


The highest density of confederate flags I've ever seen was in the Ozark region of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas (and I've done a lot of driving through the deep South). West Plains, MO and Southwest City, MO specifically jump to mind. Based on what I saw when I drove through there a few years ago, I would probably avoid that area if I were any sort of minority.

I think, from the various times I've been through Missouri on different routes, I would put anything south of I-44 as definitively Southern and end that more or less around I-70. Kansas City and St Louis are both pretty Midwestern feeling, while there is definitely a southern element to Jefferson City.

I've driven a lot in rural Indiana and Illinois to clinch highways and counties, and I see confederate flags all the time. I've seen them in Michigan.

[MikieTimT]

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.

Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.

An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.

Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".

A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.

I think the thing that gets me about Missouri is the roads. One of the things I associate with Midwestern places is a pretty good grid of PLSS section-line roads, or at least a bunch of long, straight, compass-oriented roads. Rural northern Missouri has some of that, Kansas City comes close but most of their roads are skewed a bit, St Louis doesn't have much of it at all, and good luck even finding a road that goes straight in the southern half of the state. Missouri's rural road network is overall really similar to what you'd find in the deep or fringe south. Reminds me most of Kentucky.

As far as the racial distribution goes...I don't think you necessarily need a high black population to be considered Southern. Northern AL/GA/eastern TN don't really and you don't really get anyone trying to argue those are something else:


The highest density of confederate flags I've ever seen was in the Ozark region of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas (and I've done a lot of driving through the deep South). West Plains, MO and Southwest City, MO specifically jump to mind. Based on what I saw when I drove through there a few years ago, I would probably avoid that area if I were any sort of minority.

I think, from the various times I've been through Missouri on different routes, I would put anything south of I-44 as definitively Southern and end that more or less around I-70. Kansas City and St Louis are both pretty Midwestern feeling, while there is definitely a southern element to Jefferson City.

I've driven a lot in rural Indiana and Illinois to clinch highways and counties, and I see confederate flags all the time. I've seen them in Michigan.

As someone who was born in the backwoods of western Arkansas, and raised by a bigoted policeman, I'd say that Confederate flag waving is less about geography and more about education level.

[webny99]

The thing though is that at least in the case of northern Virginia/DC suburbs, it goes beyond just being more cosmopolitan - a whole lot of northeastern culture has been imported to a degree far more than you see in other large southern cities like Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta. The eastern NC metros are in the early stages of something similar.

Interestingly, I think this has happened to a greater degree in the DC area than it has in Baltimore (being the capital is no doubt a factor in this). This creates an interesting dynamic where the Baltimore area as a whole now feels a bit more southern (relatively speaking) despite being further north.

Eastern New Mexico is the second most socioeconomically depressed place in the US I have ever been (behind only the Navajo reservation). Drive through Harding County and it really hits you just how dead and poor much of that region is. I don't agree with assigning "Appalachia" to anything west of the Mississippi, but I certainly see the comparison.

Well, that sounds a lot like West Virginia, so it makes sense from that perspective. But the landscape and contextual location rule out calling it Appalachia.

[KCRoadFan]

Missouri is interesting: the Ozark Mountains and the lowlands of the Bootheel are definitely Southern, whereas the KC area and the rolling hills in the central and northern parts of the state seem more Midwestern. St. Louis, meanwhile, is its own thing and seems to have more in common with the Ohio Valley and even with some of the cities "back East" ; I sometimes call it "the westernmost eastern city" .

[Henry]

From a historical perspective, the South would be anything below the Mason-Dixon Line and the Ohio River. But of course there are some exceptions to this, as FL doesn't have the same feel as its neighboring states, with older Northerners migrating there by the thousands. The most Southern place in TX is Houston, and even that is a tough nut to crack, with its burgeoning Latino population. FWIW, Cincinnati, OH can make its case as the southernmost Northern city, seeing that it borders KY, a southern state.

[hbelkins]

During a road trip in Maryland several years ago, I made it a point to drive to Scotland, Md., childhood home of Tubby Smith. I knew that Smith grew up as one of a bunch of children on a farm, I was always a huge fan of Tubby Smith, and I wanted to see his home area. That region definitely gave off Southern vibes. And it's not all that far from DC.

[Dirt Roads]

During a road trip in Maryland several years ago, I made it a point to drive to Scotland, Md., childhood home of Tubby Smith. I knew that Smith grew up as one of a bunch of children on a farm, I was always a huge fan of Tubby Smith, and I wanted to see his home area. That region definitely gave off Southern vibes. And it's not all that far from DC.

Indeed.  Folks in St. Mary's County and much of Charles County in Maryland do still identify with the South.

[skluth]

If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande.  Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.

Cooler heads didn't prevail. Mexico lost a war. Badly. Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico. Mexico agreed to sell what is now the rest of Arizona and NM a decade later in the Gadsden Purchase because Mexico needed money badly and the US was flush with gold thanks to the Sutter's Mill gold discovery in 1848 which kicked off the California Gold Rush. That gold would have been Mexico's if not for the events in Texas.

[TXtoNJ]

If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande.  Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.

Cooler heads didn't prevail. Mexico lost a war. Badly. Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico. Mexico agreed to sell what is now the rest of Arizona and NM a decade later in the Gadsden Purchase because Mexico needed money badly and the US was flush with gold thanks to the Sutter's Mill gold discovery in 1848 which kicked off the California Gold Rush. That gold would have been Mexico's if not for the events in Texas.

Yeah, I was about to say that you could say a lot of things about that period, but "cooler heads prevailed" is not one of them in the least bit. Provoking the war with Mexico was the Slave Power's biggest coup, and forcing the US to eat the elephant is what ultimately triggered the Civil War.

[SEWIGuy]

If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande.  Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.

Cooler heads didn't prevail. Mexico lost a war. Badly. Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico. Mexico agreed to sell what is now the rest of Arizona and NM a decade later in the Gadsden Purchase because Mexico needed money badly and the US was flush with gold thanks to the Sutter's Mill gold discovery in 1848 which kicked off the California Gold Rush. That gold would have been Mexico's if not for the events in Texas.

And if Jefferson Davis would have had his way, the Mexican Cession would have included most of northeastern Mexico, including its current second largest metropolitan area - Monterrey.

[Roadgeekteen]

These discussions always have a strong undercurrent of "a cosmopolitan place can't be Southern." A place doesn't stop being Southern when it becomes cosmopolitan or diverse.

As someone who lived in Atlanta for four years, this is very much accurate.

Maryland and Virginia absolutely used to be 100% Southern. That's why DC is where it is - as a concession to the southern states in exchange for creating a system where the federal government would assume the states' debt from the American Revolution. Southern states either didn't have as much debt or had paid more of it off, so they did not want to have to subsidize northern states' unpaid debt. As a concession for setting up that system, the planned national capital was located in the South.

The thing though is that at least in the case of northern Virginia/DC suburbs, it goes beyond just being more cosmopolitan - a whole lot of northeastern culture has been imported to a degree far more than you see in other large southern cities like Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta. The eastern NC metros are in the early stages of something similar.

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.

Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.

You didn't see my edit. Missouri as a whole isn't southern, but parts of Southern Missouri feel like it.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

From my viewpoint the answer is pretty easy: Andalusia . That is pretty much the South of Spain.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.

[JayhawkCO]

Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.

That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.

[roadman65]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.

That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.

Sure. But there's no perfect answer to this question either.

[MATraveler128]

Also, how would you classify West Virginia? It does extend as far north as New York City, but it also is part of Appalachia and feels southern.

[Rothman]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

See above.

[US 41]

I'm a truck driver and here's my verdict.

100% Southern: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, North and South Carolina

Mostly Southern: Virginia

Partially Southern: Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida

Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri

[D-Dey65]

Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.

That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.

It can also include Chicago and Buffalo, and they're not in the south either.

[Dirt Roads]

Also, how would you classify West Virginia? It does extend as far north as New York City, but it also is part of Appalachia and feels southern.

Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri

There used to be a subtle dividing line in West Virginia between "The North" and "The South", which somewhat described how the state was divided during the Civil War.  In more modern times, it represented the associational split between American Baptists and Southern Baptists.  It wasn't a perfect line, but the general idea for "The South" was the following:

Southern Wayne County
Southern tip of Putnam County
Mingo County
Logan County
Boone County
Raleigh County
Summers County
Wyoming County*
McDowell County
Mercer County
Monroe County

Using the same rule of thumb, the three counties in the Eastern Panhandle also belong in this list:

Morgan County
Berkeley County
Jefferson County

*Oddity:  There is a large cluster of American Baptist churches in Wyoming County, smack dab in the middle of the rest of these "Southern" counties.  Big enough to consider including Wyoming as a "Northern" county.

[kkt]

Mexico not only had to agree the Texas border was the Rio Grande, but they had to give up their claim to Alta California (now the state of California) along with most of Arizona and New Mexico.

Mexico lost even more than that.  All of Nevada and Utah and chucks of Colorado and Wyoming.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.

That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.

It can also include Chicago and Buffalo, and they're not in the south either.

Chicago and Buffalo are not what I think of when I think of BBQ. They definitely have their BBQ scenes like every major metro would, but not as a top of mind cuisine.

[Rothman]

Anywhere where BBQ, fried chicken, and/or biscuits are the most popular regional cuisines.

That would include Kansas City which assuredly is not the South.

It can also include Chicago and Buffalo, and they're not in the south either.

Chicago and Buffalo are not what I think of when I think of BBQ. I'm sure they have their BBQ scenes like every major metro would, but not as a top of mind cuisine.

People should not confuse buffalo wings with BBQ.