What is "The South?"

[kphoger]

Common thought^{[by whom?]} is the Sabine River is the dividing line between the American South and the American Southwest.

[StogieGuy7]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.

Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware).  The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".

Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.

[Rothman]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.

Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware).  The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".

Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.

Baltimore does have a type of Southern feel to it, hon.

[StogieGuy7]

ND, SD, NE, KS and OK are right in the middle of the Great Plains and their membership is shakier. Though I'll add that the scenery in eastern KS, NE and SD is quite similar to the tallgrass prairies you see in IA, MO, IL and S WI.  Culturally, Topeka has more in common with the likes of Des Moines, Madison or Springfield (either one) than it does with Denver. Same for Omaha or Lincoln. So it's easy to include these states in the Midwest - but I do admit that Scottsbluff, North Platte, Garden City and Rapid City are a lot more like Denver or Amarillo than the greener country to the east.

I've lived in Kansas most of my life–both western and eastern Kansas–and everyone here thinks of the state as being part of the Midwest.  As for the Garden City area:  this discussion prompted me earlier to ask my good friends, who grew up in Meade and Fowler, if that part of the state is in the Midwest or not, and they answered in the affirmative.

And, for what it's worth, Amarillo is part of the Midwest to me.  Its longitude is only about 40 miles west of the Kansas town I grew up in and, as I said, nobody where I grew up thinks of their region as anything but the Midwest.  To me, the TX/NM state line is a rough approximation of the western edge of the Midwest, similar to the KS/CO state line.  There are a handful of spots in far eastern NM and far eastern CO that could be part of the Midwest, but just pieces of a small sliver.

There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east.  Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.

Texas is a tough one because because it's "like a whole other country" and thus harder to characterize. Though having been there, I wouldn't say that Amarillo is "midwestern" either.  Oklahoma and Texas seem to have a more gradual transition from east to west than you find farther north. One thing about which there can be no debate: El Paso is in the west. 

[StogieGuy7]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.

Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware).  The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".

Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.

Baltimore does have a type of Southern feel to it, hon.

Next, you'll try to tell me that Atlantic City is southern too. Well, perhaps when compared with Utica....

[ethanhopkin14]

Common thought^{[by whom?]} is the Sabine River is the dividing line between the American South and the American Southwest.

Those people

[hotdogPi]

I was just in Citrus County, FL from December 24-28, about an hour north of Tampa. Definitely felt like the South. Lots of gun shops, Republican bumper stickers and billboards despite being outside election season (but almost never the same thing twice!), and everything was quite spread out with 20-minute drives for local shopping/restaurants/etc. being typical. Boiled peanuts and Waffle House also exist in the area.

That said, the first three things (guns, GOP, things spread out) wouldn't be out of place in Idaho, but I can definitely say that the dividing line in Florida of "too far south to be The South" is south of this point.

[kphoger]

There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east.  Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.

Again:  I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest.  And again:  I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.

I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess.  But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.

[StogieGuy7]

There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east.  Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.

Again:  I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest.  And again:  I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.

I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess.  But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.

I think that I did go out of my way to call out Kansas as being farther east-ish than it's other neighbors on the plains. That said, people can think as they please but western Kansas does offer elements of "the west" as well as some southern/Texan-ish influence too in the SW.  Midwestern? Definitely more so than the western parts of SD and NE. But Indiana it ain't.

[JayhawkCO]

There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east.  Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.

Again:  I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest.  And again:  I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.

I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess.  But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.

This isn't to pick on StogieGuy7, but AARoads is where you come to be told by people who don't live near you and haven't spent much time in your home area just exactly how your area should be defined.

[kphoger]

But Indiana it ain't.

A bunch of grid-oriented rural roads crisscrossing flatlands that are full of corn fields?  Well, I guess Kansas does use center-pivot irrigation a lot more than Indiana, so there's one big difference.

[zzcarp]

But Indiana it ain't.

A bunch of grid-oriented rural roads crisscrossing flatlands that are full of corn fields?  Well, I guess Kansas does use center-pivot irrigation a lot more than Indiana, so there's one big difference.

To be fair, even eastern Colorado towns have more of a midwestern feel, but all the high-plains prairies also have a much more western feel than Ohio which I get is the "eastern" end of the midwest, or even Indiana or Illinois.

I recently drove US 36 to clinch from Ohio to Denver. I'd say maybe an hour west of St. Joseph MO, it definitely started the transition to the "feel" of the west. By the time I was at Lebanon KS (The Geographic Center of the Contiguous US), through Oberlin, and all the way to Byers, Colorado, it all felt like the "west" or at least the "great plains west" as distinct from the "mountain west" of the front range and points west, or the southwest of the San Luis valley as well as New Mexico and Arizona.

The "great plains west" distinction to me is that towns become much fewer and farther between, the farmland is much more undeveloped or pivot irrigation is required, you can usually see for many miles in every direction, and you're typically above a base of 1500 feet of elevation.

[kphoger]

I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest.

By the time I was at Lebanon KS (The Geographic Center of the Contiguous US), through Oberlin, and all the way to Byers, Colorado, it all felt like the "west" or at least the "great plains west" ...

And yet Oberlin is directly east of where I grew up.

[StogieGuy7]

But Indiana it ain't.

A bunch of grid-oriented rural roads crisscrossing flatlands that are full of corn fields?  Well, I guess Kansas does use center-pivot irrigation a lot more than Indiana, so there's one big difference.

To be fair, even eastern Colorado towns have more of a midwestern feel, but all the high-plains prairies also have a much more western feel than Ohio which I get is the "eastern" end of the midwest, or even Indiana or Illinois.

I recently drove US 36 to clinch from Ohio to Denver. I'd say maybe an hour west of St. Joseph MO, it definitely started the transition to the "feel" of the west. By the time I was at Lebanon KS (The Geographic Center of the Contiguous US), through Oberlin, and all the way to Byers, Colorado, it all felt like the "west" or at least the "great plains west" as distinct from the "mountain west" of the front range and points west, or the southwest of the San Luis valley as well as New Mexico and Arizona.

The "great plains west" distinction to me is that towns become much fewer and farther between, the farmland is much more undeveloped or pivot irrigation is required, you can usually see for many miles in every direction, and you're typically above a base of 1500 feet of elevation.

A fair point. There's a climatological divide right around that 100 deg W median, where Gulf moisture starts to be picked up by the jet stream and the land below quickly transitions from being primarily brown to primarily green.  Actually, when I lived in Colorado Springs some 30 years ago, it too felt Midwestern as a large percentage of the people there were Midwesterners. More Californians along the Front Range now.  As for the roads being in a grid pattern; that's what you'll find used on flatter areas that were developed after 1830 or so. Much of the west is also developed similarly.

[StogieGuy7]

There's a great geographical divide between east and west that occurs in the great plains; basically centered along the 100 deg W meridian. More or less (and yes, we could argue all day about this but it's a good guide). To the west, you'll find yourself in places that are more western; east of the line is definitely the midwest. South Dakota and Nebraska are great examples: Rapid City is a western mini metro if ever there was once while Sioux Falls is purely Midwest. Scottsbluff or Kimball, NE could just as easily be in Wyoming or Colorado as NE yet Omaha and Lincoln are much more like cities farther east.  Kansas is sited a little bit more easterly than it's neighbors to the north and south and more of it feels midwestern; though Goodland, Dodge City and Garden City lean more toward what you find in eastern CO.

Again:  I grew up 53 miles from the Colorado state line in northwestern Kansas–farther west than both Dodge City and Garden City–and nobody there considered the area to be anything but the Midwest.  And again:  I confirmed with my friends who grew up in southwestern Kansas–farther west than Dodge City–that people there consider the area to be the Midwest as well.

I mean, you don't have to agree with them, I guess.  But it seems wrong to exclude an area from your definition of "the Midwest" in which everyone who actually lives there calls it the Midwest.

This isn't to pick on StogieGuy7, but AARoads is where you come to be told by people who don't live near you and haven't spent much time in your home area just exactly how your area should be defined.

Been to every place I referred to - more than once. No, haven't lived in Kansas but have lived in Colorado and traveled extensively through the region. You don't have to live in Kimball, NE to tell that it's not New England.

[JayhawkCO]

No... but there are plenty of cases where one asks a person where they live and they respond, "the Midwest" and then there are three posts thereafter telling them why they're wrong.

[triplemultiplex]

Hot n' humid = The South
Hot n' dry = The Southwest

Wherever you wanna draw that line thru Texas, I figure.

[ethanhopkin14]

No... but there are plenty of cases where one asks a person where they live and they respond, "the Midwest" and then there are three posts thereafter telling them why they're wrong.

I still have the hardest time with the Midwest.  If someone says they are from the Midwest, I think they are from Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin or possibly Iowa (the last one is debatable, depends on where in Iowa).  Anything outside of those states basically I don't even consider.  For clarity, this is my opinion, and not based on any fact. 

[kphoger]

For the middle states, it isn't hard.  The Rocky Mountains and the ranchland in its rain shadow are the beginning of the West.  East of that point, it's the Midwest.  There's nothing in between the West and the Midwest.  There's no Midwest½ region.

It's only at the more northerly and southerly latitudes that it gets wonky.

[JayhawkCO]

No... but there are plenty of cases where one asks a person where they live and they respond, "the Midwest" and then there are three posts thereafter telling them why they're wrong.

I still have the hardest time with the Midwest.  If someone says they are from the Midwest, I think they are from Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin or possibly Iowa (the last one is debatable, depends on where in Iowa).  Anything outside of those states basically I don't even consider.  For clarity, this is my opinion, and not based on any fact.

And I was born in Minnesota and lived for a long time in Kansas. And I called both of those places the Midwest.

[Rothman]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.

Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware).  The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".

Yeah, I know they think that. Worked with a lady who grew up in Baltimore but was now living near Boston. She ran around calling herself a southern girl. Yeah, right.

Baltimore does have a type of Southern feel to it, hon.

Next, you'll try to tell me that Atlantic City is southern too. Well, perhaps when compared with Utica....

Well, no, because that's silly.  But, just like Atlanta isn't representative of the entire South, Baltimore's culture is similarly another unique flavor of Southern culture.

[Dirt Roads]

I love the battle here between the two "Midwests".  But part of this issue is related to how relatively few years we are removed from the British colonies.  As the "frontier" moved further and further west, the names and meanings have changed.  But those of us who are descended from the early settlers (or taught by them) still refer to the old names.  Like when we refer to Cleveland as the "Western Reserve" and the rest of Ohio as the "Northwest Territory".  When I was growing up, the old folks in West Virginia still referred to Southwestern Pennsylvania and Northwest Pennsylvania as part of the "Midwest".  Bet that wasn't on your radar screen.

[US 41]

I've gave this a lot of thought and these are the states I'd consider Midwestern.

Ohio
Indiana (my home state)
Illinois
Michigan
Wisconsin
Missouri
Minnesota
Iowa
N&S Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas
Oklahoma
Kentucky

I know I'll get some flack for including Kentucky and Oklahoma, but those states feel much more Midwestern than Southern to me. Historically, Kentucky actually ended up siding with the North about a year into the Civil War after initially declaring neutrality. Nearly 4X the amount of Kentuckians fought for the Union as the Confederacy (125K vs 35K). Oklahoma on the other hand wasn't even a state back then, but it has more in common with Kansas and west Texas than the South. I say if the other 4 plains states are included in the Midwest category (as they should be) then most of Oklahoma should also be included.

[CoreySamson]

I will agree with you that most of Oklahoma seems to belong in the Midwest culturally. The president of my university in Tulsa refers to the area as the "Midwest", so clearly there is some precedent there among residents for including at least some of Oklahoma in the Midwest. Tulsa to me seems more like Wichita or Topeka than it does like Dallas or Little Rock, so I wouldn't say it necessarily belongs in the south or the Texas sub-region.

That being said, parts of Oklahoma do belong in the south. Anything in Oklahoma east of US 271 is definitely southern. I was eating at a Whataburger in Tulsa a couple months ago and a bus full of FFA kids from Antlers came in (presumably they were attending some sort of event in the Tulsa area), and most of them had southern accents.

[Takumi]

Once you get south of Dover, the entire Delmarva Peninsula has a southern feel to me. It's like a little enclave of the South, because I don't get a southern vibe from the Hampton Roads area at all.

Suffolk is absolutely southern, but for the most part you're right. Norfolk, Portsmouth, and the northern cities don't feel that way, and most of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach have grown more urban/suburban, but the areas along the VA/NC border in those two cities still feel southern.