Boston's Big Dig

[jakeroot]

If you were suggesting congestion-pricing in your quote; such wouldn't work in Boston because all the I-93 interchanges with the harbor crossings (Tobin Bridge (US 1), Sunmer/Callahan Tunnels (MA 1A) and Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90)) are not full/complete movement interchanges.  As mentioned earlier, one has to exit off I-93 and navigate through local streets in order to reach an alternate crossing in most instances.

The idea with congestion pricing is not necessarily to divert traffic to other routes. I believe the idea is to get people out of their cars altogether (thus providing alternate routes isn't really a big deal). People going from the south of Boston to the north of Boston would not use the main artery through Boston, but rather a bypass road such as the 95.

No, the idea is to manage traffic so that it does not reach the point at which flow breaks-down (level-of--service "E" and definitely level-of-service "F").  In other words to maximize use of what is already there.

Very good point. I was thinking of "congestion pricing" in another context, in that a toll road might persuade people into using a vehicle that is exempt from a toll, such as a bus. In this part of the country, congestion pricing would be used on express lanes that can filter traffic in and out, depending on the amount of cars (hence congestion).

There is a bridge near me (the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, famous for collapsing in the 40s) that has tolls going westbound. Where I work, I have coworkers who commute from the other side of the bridge. There are some that drive, but quite a few take the bus to avoid the toll (<< this is the context that I was thinking of when I mean "congestion pricing", in that the price is set to collect money for the bonds, but also, as a side-job, keep BS traffic to a minimum (BS traffic meaning drivers who use their cars to get to work when they could, very easily, take a bus)(also, please don't think too hard about the term "BS". I mean it only in that it's expendable traffic -- cars that don't need to be there).

the 95.

* Duke87 slooowly backs away from the ticking bomb

I say "the" specifically to piss people off. I think it's funny.

[ixnay]

If you were suggesting congestion-pricing in your quote; such wouldn't work in Boston because all the I-93 interchanges with the harbor crossings (Tobin Bridge (US 1), Sunmer/Callahan Tunnels (MA 1A) and Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90)) are not full/complete movement interchanges.  As mentioned earlier, one has to exit off I-93 and navigate through local streets in order to reach an alternate crossing in most instances.

The idea with congestion pricing is not necessarily to divert traffic to other routes. I believe the idea is to get people out of their cars altogether (thus providing alternate routes isn't really a big deal). People going from the south of Boston to the north of Boston would not use the main artery through Boston, but rather a bypass road such as the 95.

No, the idea is to manage traffic so that it does not reach the point at which flow breaks-down (level-of--service "E" and definitely level-of-service "F").  In other words to maximize use of what is already there.

Very good point. I was thinking of "congestion pricing" in another context, in that a toll road might persuade people into using a vehicle that is exempt from a toll, such as a bus. In this part of the country, congestion pricing would be used on express lanes that can filter traffic in and out, depending on the amount of cars (hence congestion).

There is a bridge near me (the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, famous for collapsing in the 40s) that has tolls going westbound. Where I work, I have coworkers who commute from the other side of the bridge. There are some that drive, but quite a few take the bus to avoid the toll (<< this is the context that I was thinking of when I mean "congestion pricing", in that the price is set to collect money for the bonds, but also, as a side-job, keep BS traffic to a minimum (BS traffic meaning drivers who use their cars to get to work when they could, very easily, take a bus)(also, please don't think too hard about the term "BS". I mean it only in that it's expendable traffic -- cars that don't need to be there).

the 95.

* Duke87 slooowly backs away from the ticking bomb

I say "the" specifically to piss people off. I think it's funny.

It's a Los Angeles thing, Duke.

ixnay

[PHLBOS]

The idea with congestion pricing is not necessarily to divert traffic to other routes. I believe the idea is to get people out of their cars altogether (thus providing alternate routes isn't really a big deal). People going from the south of Boston to the north of Boston would not use the main artery through Boston, but rather a bypass road such as the 95.

Since CP already rebuked/corrected you regarding what the actual defintion of congestion pricing is, I won't labor that point any further.  Instead, I'm going to zero in on another oversight in your post (let me remind you that I grew up in the NorthShore/Greater Boston area so I am very familiar with the area).

The posted assumption is that highways only exist for commuter traffic to/from the city.  That's not the complete story/picture.  Highways also serve as conduits of commerce as well (i.e. businesses/delivery vehicles transporting goods & services). 

Additonally, many trips along I-93 (both pre- & post-Big Dig) are through-trips; i.e. not everybody is O&Ding in downtown Boston.  While I-95 (MA 128) helps in diverting the more-distant through-traffic away from downtown; such is not a practical option for communities located closer to the city (as an example, one traveling from Lynn to Quincy is not going to use I-95).  While the MBTA network exists for those cases in mind; such only works if one's origin/destination is located within reasonable proximity of a stop or network and provided that the transfer/connection times aren't too long.  If the connection wait times are too long or if the service is too infrequent (this mostly applies towards bus routes); one's actually better off driving traffic and all.

[cpzilliacus]

the 95.

* Duke87 slooowly backs away from the ticking bomb

LOL!

This made my day!

[cpzilliacus]

The idea with congestion pricing is not necessarily to divert traffic to other routes. I believe the idea is to get people out of their cars altogether (thus providing alternate routes isn't really a big deal). People going from the south of Boston to the north of Boston would not use the main artery through Boston, but rather a bypass road such as the 95.

Since CP already rebuked/corrected you regarding what the actual defintion of congestion pricing is, I won't labor that point any further.  Instead, I'm going to zero in on another oversight in your post (let me remind you that I grew up in the NorthShore/Greater Boston area so I am very familiar with the area).

The posted assumption is that highways only exist for commuter traffic to/from the city.  That's not the complete story/picture.  Highways also serve as conduits of commerce as well (i.e. businesses/delivery vehicles transporting goods & services). 

Additonally, many trips along I-93 (both pre- & post-Big Dig) are through-trips; i.e. not everybody is O&Ding in downtown Boston.  While I-95 (MA 128) helps in diverting the more-distant through-traffic away from downtown; such is not a practical option for communities located closer to the city (as an example, one traveling from Lynn to Quincy is not going to use I-95).  While the MBTA network exists for those cases in mind; such only works if one's origin/destination is located within reasonable proximity of a stop or network and provided that the transfer/connection times aren't too long.  If the connection wait times are too long or if the service is too infrequent (this mostly applies towards bus routes); one's actually better off driving traffic and all.

Thank you for the kind comment.

If pricing of a highway causes some trips to divert to transit (because that is convenient for the users of the network), that's fine by me, especially if transit (buses) can take advantage of reasonably free-flowing traffic to provide reliable and fast service.  Buses on highways that are correctly priced are a great way to provide a guideway for buses to use, and  the cost is properly borne by all traffic on the road (I have no problem with buses being allowed to use a managed/priced highway at no charge, since in most cases there are not that many of them).

[PHLBOS]

If pricing of a highway causes some trips to divert to transit (because that is convenient for the users of the network), that's fine by me, especially if transit (buses) can take advantage of reasonably free-flowing traffic to provide reliable and fast service.  Buses on highways that are correctly priced are a great way to provide a guideway for buses to use, and  the cost is properly borne by all traffic on the road (I have no problem with buses being allowed to use a managed/priced highway at no charge, since in most cases there are not that many of them).

Most if not all commuters make their decision whether to drive or to take transit to their place of work the moment they leave home.  Once on their chosen mode; those that drive aren't going to switch to transit routes (especially on routes that they may not be familiar with) in mid-stream of their commute due to their regular route being jammed or closed. 

Busses that use highways are typically on Express mode and only stop at key interchanges; unless one was a regular transit user, they may be not familiar with where exactly those highway busses make stops.

Conversely, one using transit that encounters a severe delay and/or transit route closure at their transfer point doesn't have the option of switching back to their personal vehicle at that point (unless they backtrack home).

As far as specialized HOV (busses, carpools, etc.) lanes are concerned; since I-93 wasn't really widened in terms of through-lanes in the Big Dig area (see Roadman's earlier post) such would not work due to it taking out an existing active lane.  Those that were old enough and lived in the Greater Bsoton area remember the infamous Diamond Car Pool Lane along the Southeast Expressway during the early-to-mid 70s; know that such an experiment was an absolute disaster traffic-wise.

South of the I-90 interchange, I do believe that there is an HOV lane along I-93 but such is only a short segment.

On the I-90 part of the Big Dig, there was supposed to be a separate bus tunnel that paralleled the Ted Williams Tunnel but I don't believe that such ever came to fruition.  Roadman (not Roadman65) can confirm/clarify.

[Pete from Boston]

Most if not all commuters make their decision whether to drive or to take transit to their place of work the moment they leave home.  Once on their chosen mode; those that drive aren't going to switch to transit routes (especially on routes that they may not be familiar with) in mid-stream of their commute due to their regular route being jammed or closed.

I would bet that most of them decide it a week into their job, when they have an understanding of the trip, then never question that decision again.

South of the I-90 interchange, I do believe that there is an HOV lane along I-93 but such is only a short segment.

It runs from the Braintree Split to Savin Hill in Dorchester, about five and a half miles (most of the Southeast Expressway, in other words).

On the I-90 part of the Big Dig, there was supposed to be a separate bus tunnel that paralleled the Ted Williams Tunnel but I don't believe that such ever came to fruition.  Roadman (not Roadman65) can confirm/clarify.

A parallel transit bus tunnel was built from South Station to the vicinity of the World Trade Center, the so-called "Piers Transitway" segment of the Silver Line.

There is also a bus/HOV lane heading from the Expressway northbound at South Bay going to the Mass Pike eastbound and South Station.

[bzakharin]

Most if not all commuters make their decision whether to drive or to take transit to their place of work the moment they leave home.  Once on their chosen mode; those that drive aren't going to switch to transit routes (especially on routes that they may not be familiar with) in mid-stream of their commute due to their regular route being jammed or closed.

I would bet that most of them decide it a week into their job, when they have an understanding of the trip, then never question that decision again.

South of the I-90 interchange, I do believe that there is an HOV lane along I-93 but such is only a short segment.

It runs from the Braintree Split to Savin Hill in Dorchester, about five and a half miles (most of the Southeast Expressway, in other words).

On the I-90 part of the Big Dig, there was supposed to be a separate bus tunnel that paralleled the Ted Williams Tunnel but I don't believe that such ever came to fruition.  Roadman (not Roadman65) can confirm/clarify.

A parallel transit bus tunnel was built from South Station to the vicinity of the World Trade Center, the so-called "Piers Transitway" segment of the Silver Line.

There is also a bus/HOV lane heading from the Expressway northbound at South Bay going to the Mass Pike eastbound and South Station.

I'd say they decide before starting. In fact, probably before deciding whether to take the job, or even go to an interview. I certainly did

[Alps]

Most if not all commuters make their decision whether to drive or to take transit to their place of work the moment they leave home.  Once on their chosen mode; those that drive aren't going to switch to transit routes (especially on routes that they may not be familiar with) in mid-stream of their commute due to their regular route being jammed or closed.

I would bet that most of them decide it a week into their job, when they have an understanding of the trip, then never question that decision again.

South of the I-90 interchange, I do believe that there is an HOV lane along I-93 but such is only a short segment.

It runs from the Braintree Split to Savin Hill in Dorchester, about five and a half miles (most of the Southeast Expressway, in other words).

On the I-90 part of the Big Dig, there was supposed to be a separate bus tunnel that paralleled the Ted Williams Tunnel but I don't believe that such ever came to fruition.  Roadman (not Roadman65) can confirm/clarify.

A parallel transit bus tunnel was built from South Station to the vicinity of the World Trade Center, the so-called "Piers Transitway" segment of the Silver Line.

There is also a bus/HOV lane heading from the Expressway northbound at South Bay going to the Mass Pike eastbound and South Station.

I'd say they decide before starting. In fact, probably before deciding whether to take the job, or even go to an interview. I certainly did

If you have multiple viable options, you'd try them all out before settling. When i started my new job, I walked the first day and later figured out whether I liked biking and driving (driving is my least favorite). So I'd tend to believe that people who MIGHT use transit will first try that and driving before settling (or maybe choosing each day based on conditions).

[PHLBOS]

I would bet that most of them decide it a week into their job, when they have an understanding of the trip, then never question that decision again.

I'd say they decide before starting. In fact, probably before deciding whether to take the job, or even go to an interview. I certainly did

If you have multiple viable options, you'd try them all out before settling. When i started my new job, I walked the first day and later figured out whether I liked biking and driving (driving is my least favorite). So I'd tend to believe that people who MIGHT use transit will first try that and driving before settling (or maybe choosing each day based on conditions).

Not everybody does all the above before starting their new job as this old thread can attest.

[Alps]

I would bet that most of them decide it a week into their job, when they have an understanding of the trip, then never question that decision again.

I'd say they decide before starting. In fact, probably before deciding whether to take the job, or even go to an interview. I certainly did

If you have multiple viable options, you'd try them all out before settling. When i started my new job, I walked the first day and later figured out whether I liked biking and driving (driving is my least favorite). So I'd tend to believe that people who MIGHT use transit will first try that and driving before settling (or maybe choosing each day based on conditions).

Not everybody does all the above before starting their new job as this old thread can attest.

Exactly.

[The Nature Boy]

Let's not forget that people change jobs without changing where they live.

[jeffandnicole]

Let's not forget that people change jobs without changing where they live.

Yep.  And some people may have originally moved with taking a certain route or bus or train in mind.  When they switch jobs, they may be stuck with commuting option(s) that don't necessarily appeal to them.

[The Ghostbuster]

To those who suggested the Big Dig should have been congestion priced, I wholeheartedly agree. Otherwise, it would eventually be just as congested as the old central artery was. After all, the cause of traffic congestion is the use and mispricing of roads.

[PHLBOS]

To those who suggested the Big Dig should have been congestion priced, I wholeheartedly agree. Otherwise, it would eventually be just as congested as the old central artery was. After all, the cause of traffic congestion is the use and mispricing of roads.

As stated earlier, congestion pricing only works when there's full-access to the various alternate routes. 

Unfortunately, such does not exist along the I-93/O'Neill Tunnel.  All its interchanges with the three harbor crossings (Tobin Bridge, Sumner/Callahan Tunnels & Ted Williams Tunnel) are not full-access (complete) interchanges.

There's no direct ramps linking I-93 South to US 1 North nor US 1 South to I-93 North (Tobin Bridge).

There's no direct ramps linking I-93 North to MA 1A North nor MA 1A South to I-93 South (Sunmer/Callahan Tunnels).  Such makes one following Secret MA 1A to/from US 1 (which piggybacks along I-93) a bit of a challenge.

There's no direct ramps linking I-93 South to I-90 East (Liberty & Ted Williams Tunnel).

[jakeroot]

Here's an idea: Toll the tunnel, but permit free usage for carpools and electric vehicles. Could that work? Does the EZ-pass have an HOV mode?

[PHLBOS]

Here's an idea: Toll the tunnel, but permit free usage for carpools and electric vehicles. Could that work?

Short answer, No.  The tunnels only have 2-lanes per direction and the Tobin Bridge only has 3-lanes per direction.

Does the EZ-pass have an HOV mode?

I do not believe so.

[jakeroot]

Here's an idea: Toll the tunnel, but permit free usage for carpools and electric vehicles. Could that work?

Short answer, No.  The tunnels only have 2-lanes per direction and the Tobin Bridge only has 3-lanes per direction.

I don't live in Boston (and I've only been there once), but it sounds like the 93 is pretty busy through central Boston. Is that true? Is it congested for much of the day? I'm going somewhere with this, but I need more information.

Does the EZ-pass have an HOV mode?

I do not believe so.

That seems like a strange omission. They ought to consider creating a new pass for that.

[PHLBOS]

Here's an idea: Toll the tunnel, but permit free usage for carpools and electric vehicles. Could that work?

Short answer, No.  The tunnels only have 2-lanes per direction and the Tobin Bridge only has 3-lanes per direction.

I don't live in Boston (and I've only been there once), but it sounds like the 93 is pretty busy through central Boston. Is that true? Is it congested for much of the day? I'm going somewhere with this, but I need more information.

I moved out of the Boston area 25 years ago shortly before the Big Dig project started so I can't answer for the current conditions; but pre-Big Dig, I-93 along the Central Artery was jammed in both directions for at least 6 hours per day (rush-hour periods were really 3-hour periods) and even longer.  Someone else on here can answer for the current conditions.

Does the EZ-pass have an HOV mode?

I do not believe so.

That seems like a strange omission. They ought to consider creating a new pass for that.

What's strange about it?  To the best of my knowledge, no electronic transponder (E-Z Pass or other) in the U.S. functions based on the number of vehicle occupants.  E-Z Pass lanes/ops does not equal HOV and never has.

[vdeane]

Virginia and Maryland both issue E-ZPass transponders that can switch between HOV and toll mode.  It's how the I-495 and I-95 HOT lanes work.

The purpose of congestion pricing is not to get people to switch to another roadway - it's to get people out of their cars altogether.  Plus you could do like NYC wants to do and block off a whole area that you have to pay the congestion charge to enter (I believe London does this too) rather than doing it for specific routes.

[jakeroot]

Does the EZ-pass have an HOV mode?

I do not believe so.

That seems like a strange omission. They ought to consider creating a new pass for that.

What's strange about it?  To the best of my knowledge, no electronic transponder (E-Z Pass or other) in the U.S. functions based on the number of vehicle occupants.  E-Z Pass lanes/ops does not equal HOV and never has.

Here are the new FlexPass' the WSDOT introduced last year for the 405 express lanes (see below). You get to ride free if you have the required number of occupants at the current time (rush hour: 3 people, all other times: 2). The idea is that you can avoid the toll by carpooling. The 405 used to be HOV 2+, but the HOV was so over-utilized they converted the lane into an express lane, which can be used by anyone (free of charge if you have the right amount).

My idea with the 93 through central Boston is not to toll the tunnel itself, but the exits which occur within it (and near it). If you plan to drive straight through Boston: no charge. But, if you plan to exit at one of the main junctions near Downtown, you get charged X-amount (which may or may not vary depending on the time of day). I'm not 100% sure which exits would be the start/end of the tolls, but certainly the most central junctions would have tolls. IF you are high-occupancy, you flip the pass over to HOV mode, and there's no charge. A little light overhead would flash if the pass is set to HOV mode, so police could monitor for cheaters (this is how it's done in Seattle).

The purpose of congestion pricing is not to get people to switch to another roadway - it's to get people out of their cars altogether.  Plus you could do like NYC wants to do and block off a whole area that you have to pay the congestion charge to enter (I believe London does this too) rather than doing it for specific routes.

I think that's what I just proposed here. Seattle proposed a congestion charge, but the lack of a bypass route around the metro area killed the idea (this idea does not exist in Boston...the 95 works as a bypass).

[davewiecking]

Virginia and Maryland both issue E-ZPass transponders that can switch between HOV and toll mode.  It's how the I-495 and I-95 HOT lanes work.

AFAIK, VA only; 495 Hot Lanes stop several miles short of the MD state line. Out-of-staters can get them, and are advised to shield any regular EZ Passes to keep them from being accidentally read.

[Alps]

The purpose of congestion pricing is not to get people to switch to another roadway - it's to get people out of their cars altogether.  Plus you could do like NYC wants to do and block off a whole area that you have to pay the congestion charge to enter (I believe London does this too) rather than doing it for specific routes.

I think that's what I just proposed here. Seattle proposed a congestion charge, but the lack of a bypass route around the metro area killed the idea (this idea does not exist in Boston...the 95 works as a bypass).

I-95/MA 128 is no better or worse of a bypass of Boston than I-405 is of Seattle.

[jakeroot]

The purpose of congestion pricing is not to get people to switch to another roadway - it's to get people out of their cars altogether.  Plus you could do like NYC wants to do and block off a whole area that you have to pay the congestion charge to enter (I believe London does this too) rather than doing it for specific routes.

I think that's what I just proposed here. Seattle proposed a congestion charge, but the lack of a bypass route around the metro area killed the idea (this idea does not exist in Boston...the 95 works as a bypass).

I-95/MA 128 is no better or worse of a bypass of Boston than I-405 is of Seattle.

Even so, as long as you don't exit within central Boston, you don't need to pay the toll (this is where my idea is slightly different than a traditional congestion charge).

[SidS1045]

I don't live in Boston (and I've only been there once), but it sounds like the 93 is pretty busy through central Boston. Is that true? Is it congested for much of the day? I'm going somewhere with this, but I need more information.

For most of the day traffic flows at or above the speed limit through the O'Neill Tunnel (the official name of the I-93 portion of the Big Dig).  But during rush hours, it usually slows to a crawl.  Any traffic problem on its connecting roads at either end (I-93 both north and south of downtown) at any time of day will also usually clog the tunnel.