The universe according to MMM

[Max Rockatansky]

I don't think there has ever been a point in my life outside of being an infant where I consistently got 10 hours of sleep.  I usually function fine with 6-6.5 hours nowadays. 

[MultiMillionMiler]

I don't think there has ever been a point in my life outside of being an infant where I consistently got 10 hours of sleep.  I usually function fine with 6-6.5 hours nowadays.

That's horrible, even fully grown adults with completely developed brains and elderly need 7 hours minimum. Sleep needs to be classified as a basic, fundamental, unalienable human right at the same level as food and water. I can easily forget to eat for a day without noticing, but not without sleep. In fact, even being very hungry while caught in traffic is much easier to ignore than trying to drive while drowsy. But the thing is, if I get a full night sleep one night, I may only need far less the next night. Sometimes I alternate between sleeping 10 hours and 5 hours.

[Max Rockatansky]

I don't think there has ever been a point in my life outside of being an infant where I consistently got 10 hours of sleep.  I usually function fine with 6-6.5 hours nowadays.

That's horrible, even fully grown adults with completely developed brains and elderly need 7 hours minimum. Sleep needs to be classified as a basic, fundamental, unalienable human right at the same level as food and water. I can easily forget to eat for a day without noticing, but not without sleep. In fact, even being very hungry while caught in traffic is much easier to ignore than trying to drive while drowsy. But the thing is, if I get a full night sleep one night, I may only need far less the next night. Sometimes I alternate between sleeping 10 hours and 5 hours.

That's fine, I feel infinitely worse if I sleep longer and don't go out for a run in the morning.  Nobody is making me sleep less other than me and my attempts to squeeze 8-13.5 miles in before sunrise. 

[J N Winkler]

- 56 hours sleeping (8 hours a night, do college students actually get that much?)

I learned pretty quickly that it was a mistake for me not to.

People's specific sleep requirements vary, but especially in this country, there is a strong cultural imperative to try to get by on less and claim that's all the sleep one needs ("Plenty of time to sleep when I'm dead" and all that).  Even so, just as college is partly about learning to treat study as a full-time job and thus default toward hitting the books in unstructured time during the day, it is also about learning to start early on difficult projects or assignments so that they get done without compromising sleep.

[roadman65]

I knew of a woman who got no sleep. She would be considered eccentric by many on here, but her story was she stayed up all night to pray for people in a sanctuary she built in an extra room in her house. She didn't get to bed hardly ever.

Didn't really know her personally as she died in 2004, but met her family in 2015 and 2016.  Her name is Maria Esperanza and started a community in Venezuela called Finca Betania and she can be googled as well as her community to find out more.

Anyway she was always full of energy and those who believe her story ( which many to date have and all who claimed to have met her say her personality is so comforting people of all beliefs including scientific people find peace in her) claim she can inspire people to want to live their own to life to full happiness.

[kalvado]

And where's the time for leisure in all of that? Seriously what's the point of living if all you are doing is school and work 15 hours a day?

It's the student employees choice whether or not to work, or (within broad limits) how many hours to work.

One week = 168 hours
- 56 hours sleeping (8 hours a night, do college students actually get that much?)
- 15 hours in class
- 15 hours doing homework (rule of thumb 1 hour homework per hour in class)
- 15 hours part time job
- 7 hours eating

still leaves 116 hours a week for getting to/from class, but includes a fair amount of time for socializing and liesure.  And I'd hope that the student would get some pleasure in the classes as well, it's not sheer torture the whole time.

Look at it from another perspective. That is 45 hours total - 40 hours is considered standard for a full-time job, and it is not uncommon to get more than that, especially for those not paid by the hour.  Nothing really catastrophic.

[kkt]

60, not 116. You seem to have forgotten to subtract the 56.

Whoops.  However 60 hours is still a reasonable amount of liesure time.

[Max Rockatansky]

Someone should delete this post and lock the thread at 999 replies.

[vdeane]

A couple of things that bear mentioning:
-Summer internships are standard these days.  In fact, many employers expect multiple internships even from entry level candidates these days.  Not having one is basically shooting yourself in the foot, and many colleges even require one to graduate.
-While time spent in school won't count against you (unless you never do internships or anything similarly professionally related outside the classroom), time after school likely would.  Pretty much everyone I knew in college had their next step, be it a job or getting a Master's, lined up before they graduated, often months in advance.

[interstatefan990]

But to say that the education/college path was not something anyone other than the middle class was exposed to is a denial of some of the most important and historical socioeconomic shifts in our country (i.e., the brain drain).

That's not really what I'm saying. I was pointing out that the notion that someone *has* to (or least is very much expected to) go to college was never a thing outside of the middle class. Of course people from the lower and upper classes have gone and do go to college, but it was way less of an expectation due to a multitude of constraints. They may not have enough money to pay for it all. The family might need the student at home to help out. There might be an elderly person with care needs. Or, the reverse. There might be so much generational wealth or some kind of rich family business to inherit that college is more optional. Potential students might not see the worth in attending. And so on and so forth.

Someone should delete this post and lock the thread at 999 replies.

I wouldn't mind if this discussion continued on some kind of other forum, but that's easier said than done.

-While time spent in school won't count against you (unless you never do internships or anything similarly professionally related outside the classroom), time after school likely would.  Pretty much everyone I knew in college had their next step, be it a job or getting a Master's, lined up before they graduated, often months in advance.

College does serve as kind of a "buffer" in that it gives you 3-4 more years to figure things out, which I imagine is better than graduating high school and being plopped right down into the professional world.

[roadman65]

Someone should delete this post and lock the thread at 999 replies.

It will get locked soon and restarted someplace else.   Remember this is just MMM in One Thread under a new title and different thread.

[Roadgeekteen]

Someone should delete this post and lock the thread at 999 replies.

Guess we have to wait for 9999 now.

[GaryV]

elderly need 7 hours minimum.

I am approaching that - and I'm lucky if I get 5.5-6 hours. Once in a while 6.5. The only time I get 7 is if I'm sick.

Anecdotally, I've heard of many older adults who get far less sleep. They may be in bed for 6, 7 or 8 hours, but they only sleep for 2 or 3 of them.

[Roadgeekteen]

10 hours of sleep minimum for people under age 21 is needed for a healthy brain, and at least 9 hours up to age 25 (neuroscience supports this). In fact, part of the reason it took me 5 years was because I only chose classes at 10:30 am and later, and sometimes I couldn't find anything that fit so I put off that particular class until the next semester..etc. I fall asleep at 10:30 to 11 pm generally every night and can't really function getting up earlier than 7:30-8 am, and I will be looking for job hours that suits this criteria also. I'd even sacrifice lunch hour if necessary to get the extra hour of sleep. Sleep deprivation is the most dangerous health risk with a job out of most other factors.

Nobody my age gets 10 hours of sleep, that's absurd. I get 6-8 hours every night and that's good enough.

[Max Rockatansky]

Someone should delete this post and lock the thread at 999 replies.

Guess we have to wait for 9999 now.

I have something special in mind for Reply #9001.

[Rothman]

But to say that the education/college path was not something anyone other than the middle class was exposed to is a denial of some of the most important and historical socioeconomic shifts in our country (i.e., the brain drain).

That's not really what I'm saying. I was pointing out that the notion that someone *has* to (or least is very much expected to) go to college was never a thing outside of the middle class. Of course people from the lower and upper classes have gone and do go to college, but it was way less of an expectation due to a multitude of constraints. They may not have enough money to pay for it all. The family might need the student at home to help out. There might be an elderly person with care needs. Or, the reverse. There might be so much generational wealth or some kind of rich family business to inherit that college is more optional. Potential students might not see the worth in attending. And so on and so forth.

And, if you would read the rest of my posts, you'd see that wasn't the case and the desperation for economic stability and safe jobs for the kids drove the need -- not the want -- that parents felt that the kids had to go to college.

And, just like not everyone made it out to go to college amongst the poor classes that my parents were part of, not all of my middle and upper class classmates went to college, either.

[Scott5114]

-Summer internships are standard these days.  In fact, many employers expect multiple internships even from entry level candidates these days.  Not having one is basically shooting yourself in the foot, and many colleges even require one to graduate.

Unpaid internships should be ruled to be illegal under the Fair Labor Standards Act.

[MultiMillionMiler]

-Summer internships are standard these days.  In fact, many employers expect multiple internships even from entry level candidates these days.  Not having one is basically shooting yourself in the foot, and many colleges even require one to graduate.

Unpaid internships should be ruled to be illegal under the Fair Labor Standards Act.

100% agreed.

And internships required to graduate? Pfft. Again, bar set WAY too high these days. And they should come with similar benefits and guaranteed minimum wage.

[kalvado]

10 hours of sleep minimum for people under age 21 is needed for a healthy brain, and at least 9 hours up to age 25 (neuroscience supports this). In fact, part of the reason it took me 5 years was because I only chose classes at 10:30 am and later, and sometimes I couldn't find anything that fit so I put off that particular class until the next semester..etc. I fall asleep at 10:30 to 11 pm generally every night and can't really function getting up earlier than 7:30-8 am, and I will be looking for job hours that suits this criteria also. I'd even sacrifice lunch hour if necessary to get the extra hour of sleep. Sleep deprivation is the most dangerous health risk with a job out of most other factors.

Nobody my age gets 10 hours of sleep, that's absurd. I get 6-8 hours every night and that's good enough.

Just because you're used to it doesn't mean it's healthy. Yes there is some natural variation in sleep with some people only needing 6 hours and others needing 12, but 10 is a very standard amount for the rapidly developing adolescent brain. And sleep deprivation during that crucial period is dangerous and often leads to severe mental health disorders, and mental health issues have less chance of successful treatment if onset is in adolescence. I got 7-8 hours sleep most nights in high school and was always tired for the first half of the day.

Well, some people may fall behind the curve in terms of development, but this seems to be a standard graph:

[MultiMillionMiler]

They must have adjusted that to make it seem more compatible with today's society. There's no way a young teen can go as low as 7 hours consistently. And some of the younger kid sleep needs are a little high, I don't ever remember sleeping 12-13 hours when I was an elementary school kid (I'd be restless at 7 am sometimes) Kids ages 5-10 always complaining about bed times being too early, and teens being tired all the time, they've got something backward. From what I learned in my psychology classes and neuroscience textbooks, it usually doesn't even fall below 10 hours until around 18 ideally. Society should schedule things more heavily based on circadian sleep rhythms rather than meal times. So many days I don't even really get hungry until around 6 pm anyway, so I could easily do a day's work without food. My energy comes from sleep, not so much from food. And even the author of the small book: "Life lessons from a Brain Surgeon", admits that there's no good evidence that breakfast is an important meal and recommends skipping it every day, but emphasizes how important continuous sleep is. Maybe work days should run more from 11 am to 6 pm without a lunch hour, instead of 9-5, to allow more sleep.

[kalvado]

They must have adjusted that to make it seem more compatible with today's society. There's no way a young teen can go as low as 7 hours consistently. And some of the younger kid sleep needs are a little high, I don't ever remember sleeping 12-13 hours when I was an elementary school kid (I'd be restless at 7 am sometimes) Kids ages 5-10 always complaining about bed times being too early, and teens being tired all the time, they've got something backward. From what I learned in my psychology classes and neuroscience textbooks, it usually doesn't even fall below 10 hours until around 18 ideally. Society should schedule things more heavily based on circadian sleep rhythms rather than meal times. So many days I don't even really get hungry until around 6 pm anyway, so I could easily do a day's work without food. My energy comes from sleep, not so much from food. And even the author of the small book: "Life lessons from a Brain Surgeon", admits that there's no good evidence that breakfast is an important meal and recommends skipping it every day, but emphasizes how important continuous sleep is. Maybe work days should run more from 11 am to 6 pm without a lunch hour, instead of 9-5, to allow more sleep.

I am sorry if I did already ask, but what kind of work you did that would allow for 8 hours with no meal break?

[Max Rockatansky]

I usually schedule my work hours as 9:30 AM-6 PM or 10:30 AM-7 PM.  I don't do this for extra sleep but rather more morning hours for which I can spend exercising.  As I already noted, I do the majority of my runs usually before sunrise.  I absolutely hate going to lift at the gym after work and would rather go during normal commute hours when I'm done running (outdoors).  Then again, I've controlled my down schedule for close to twenty years at this point.  My real preference would be four days on for ten hours or four at the office and one work from home. 

Personally as a salaried person I rather just cut the 30 minute BS lunch period.  It's so rare that I take a sit down period for a lunch that rather just cash in the 30 minutes as time off.  Most of the other department managers take an hour (for some reason) that I kind of just play along with it by scheduling myself 8.5 hours.  I usually eat while I'm working several times through the day. 

[thspfc]

They must have adjusted that to make it seem more compatible with today's society. There's no way a young teen can go as low as 7 hours consistently. And some of the younger kid sleep needs are a little high, I don't ever remember sleeping 12-13 hours when I was an elementary school kid (I'd be restless at 7 am sometimes) Kids ages 5-10 always complaining about bed times being too early, and teens being tired all the time, they've got something backward. From what I learned in my psychology classes and neuroscience textbooks, it usually doesn't even fall below 10 hours until around 18 ideally. Society should schedule things more heavily based on circadian sleep rhythms rather than meal times. So many days I don't even really get hungry until around 6 pm anyway, so I could easily do a day's work without food. My energy comes from sleep, not so much from food. And even the author of the small book: "Life lessons from a Brain Surgeon", admits that there's no good evidence that breakfast is an important meal and recommends skipping it every day, but emphasizes how important continuous sleep is. Maybe work days should run more from 11 am to 6 pm without a lunch hour, instead of 9-5, to allow more sleep.

If there's one thing MMM has in common with the rest of the forum, it's passing off his personal experiences as being absolute fact for everyone.

[Max Rockatansky]

Best time on a bike or on foot running?  There is a substantial difference in the amount of impact between the two exercises.  My best mile running all time was 5 minutes, 14 seconds.  I usually average about 7 minutes, 10 seconds per mile on a distance run like the 13.5 miles I described earlier. 

[Max Rockatansky]

From my own observation the impact of 3.5 miles of cycling is similar to that of 1 mile running.  That probably explains why I don't cycle for distance much these days.  It way harder to maintain a sustained pace on a bike in an urban area traffic (especially around Fresno) whereas I can go almost anywhere I want running unobstructed.  I do enjoy taking my mountain bike out on OHV roads in the Sierra Nevada Mountains though.