Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

Started by rickmastfan67, March 26, 2024, 04:09:30 AM

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Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 27, 2025, 05:13:45 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 04:42:36 PMYou have been following me around and deliberately annoying me and deliberately irritating me on multiple roads forums for at least 5 years. By taking positions on a variety of subjects contrary to mine and arguing it like a dog with a bone in his mouth and shaking it back and forth.
Several people have done this over the years and I have several theories as to why.
[/quote
Are you really surprised that there is a large amount of crossover in road group platforms? 
I have theory too about why you're seeing so much disagreement across the expanse of
Wrong -- I am talking about a handful of people over the last 20 years. Out of thousands of posters.

Second point: there are less than a handful of major highway projects that I have ever opposed. Let that sink into your ears.

And you really think those thousands of posters are all actually frequently active?  Even on Freewayjim, you were often talking to several people who are in this very thread.  How big do you think this hobby actually is?

I don't know, it seems like as of late you have negative opinions on almost every major east coast freeway project.  I recall first becoming aware of it with the Pigeon River Gorge washouts.  You were big on tunnels and such when that was all new.


LilianaUwU

"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
—Mr. Thwomp

My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm on the AARoads Wiki.

Max Rockatansky


Beltway

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 27, 2025, 05:32:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 27, 2025, 05:13:45 PMAre you really surprised that there is a large amount of crossover in road group platforms? 
I have theory too about why you're seeing so much disagreement across the expanse of
Wrong -- I am talking about a handful of people over the last 20 years. Out of thousands of posters.
Second point: there are less than a handful of major highway projects that I have ever opposed. Let that sink into your ears.
And you really think those thousands of posters are all actually frequently active?  Even on Freewayjim, you were often talking to several people who are in this very thread.  How big do you think this hobby actually is?
I don't know, it seems like as of late you have negative opinions on almost every major east coast freeway project.  I recall first becoming aware of it with the Pigeon River Gorge washouts.  You were big on tunnels and such when that was all new.
" you have negative opinions on almost every major east coast freeway project"

Give me a break. There are exactly two.

I had questions about the I-40 washouts but no objection to the full 4-lane restorations. I suggested future study for a relocation but with no time table specified.

Back to the Key Bridge, simply questions about why the lack of precision for cost estimates, what was $1.7 billion is now being ranged by some sources as up to $5 billion.

The lack of specifics as to how they will protect the main piers from ship strike and or ship conflagration, causing severe damage to the bridge.

. . .
And here we go again, Max starts posting cartoons and throwaway posts. A major chunk of those 20 pages that he mentioned.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Max Rockatansky

I'm counting at least three negative opinions mentioned in the last three/four pages of this thread:

-  The Key Bridge replacement
-  I-40 and the Pigeon River Gorge
-  I-81 in Syracuse

Now you got me wondering what all this I-64 business is about. 

LilianaUwU

"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
—Mr. Thwomp

My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm on the AARoads Wiki.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 27, 2025, 05:49:17 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 27, 2025, 05:39:24 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 27, 2025, 05:37:15 PM

How many pages back is the post with guy bringing pizzas into the burning apartment now?

18 pages ago, on page 26.

Thank you, now this is the kind of detailed analysis I like to see.

Beltway

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 27, 2025, 05:47:56 PMI'm counting at least three negative opinions mentioned in the last three/four pages of this thread:
-  The Key Bridge replacement
-  I-40 and the Pigeon River Gorge
-  I-81 in Syracuse
Now you got me wondering what all this I-64 business is about. 
You got two of them.

I-40 and the Pigeon River Gorge is not one. I don't oppose the reconstruction.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 05:53:18 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 27, 2025, 05:47:56 PMI'm counting at least three negative opinions mentioned in the last three/four pages of this thread:
-  The Key Bridge replacement
-  I-40 and the Pigeon River Gorge
-  I-81 in Syracuse
Now you got me wondering what all this I-64 business is about. 
You got two of them.

I-40 and the Pigeon River Gorge is not one. I don't oppose the reconstruction.

Heh, you didn't oppose reconstruction so long as it met your criteria for how it should be rebuilt.  You were quite vocal off forum on your thoughts about rebuilding on the existing right of way. 

FWIW I don't personally disagree with you in that the terrain of the Pigeon River Gorge was not the best choice for a freeway.  Adam Prince's account on the matter thought I think really explained the realities why the I-40 ended up there (and will stay there).  Sometimes you got to work with the corridor you're given. 

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

hotdogPi

Can we talk more about the Miami Dolphins trying to swim to Baltimore but getting stuck because they couldn't follow NC I-87 to Chesapeake Bay?
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13, 50
MA 10,22,35,40,53,63,79,107,109,126,138,141,151,159
NH 27,78,111A; CA 90; NY 9A,40,366,423; RI 117; CT 32,193,320; VT 2A,5A; PA 3,51,60, GA 42,140; FL A1A,7; WA 202; QC 162,165,263; 🇬🇧A100,A3211,A3213,A3215; 🇫🇷95 D316

New clinch: VT/NY 346

Lowest untraveled: 36

PColumbus73

I simply look forward to Beltway chaining himself to the Key Bridge, I-81 viaduct, and the American Legion Bridge, at the same time.

PColumbus73

Quote from: hotdogPi on September 27, 2025, 08:54:06 PMCan we talk more about the Miami Dolphins trying to swim to Baltimore but getting stuck because they couldn't follow NC I-87 to Chesapeake Bay?

I'm tempted to start a 'Save the I-81 Viaduct' thread in Fictional... maybe threaten Syracuse (or Albany) with aliens if they don't replace it.

vdeane

Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 05:43:19 PM" you have negative opinions on almost every major east coast freeway project"

Give me a break. There are exactly two.

I had questions about the I-40 washouts but no objection to the full 4-lane restorations. I suggested future study for a relocation but with no time table specified.
And yet I can't recall a single time where you had positive comments regarding a highway project outside of Virginia.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: PColumbus73 on September 27, 2025, 09:16:38 PM
Quote from: hotdogPi on September 27, 2025, 08:54:06 PMCan we talk more about the Miami Dolphins trying to swim to Baltimore but getting stuck because they couldn't follow NC I-87 to Chesapeake Bay?

I'm tempted to start a 'Save the I-81 Viaduct' thread in Fictional... maybe threaten Syracuse (or Albany) with aliens if they don't replace it.

I think this is needed...

kphoger

Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 04:42:36 PMYou have been following me around and deliberately annoying me and deliberately irritating me on multiple roads forums for at least 5 years. By taking positions on a variety of subjects contrary to mine and arguing it like a dog with a bone in his mouth and shaking it back and forth.

Several people have done this over the years and I have several theories as to why.

In the words of Hugo Bradford...

QuoteIf everyone else is always the problem, maybe the problem isn't everyone else.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

PColumbus73

Quote from: kphoger on September 29, 2025, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: Beltway on September 27, 2025, 04:42:36 PMYou have been following me around and deliberately annoying me and deliberately irritating me on multiple roads forums for at least 5 years. By taking positions on a variety of subjects contrary to mine and arguing it like a dog with a bone in his mouth and shaking it back and forth.

Several people have done this over the years and I have several theories as to why.

In the words of Hugo Bradford...

QuoteIf everyone else is always the problem, maybe the problem isn't everyone else.

9/10 dentists agree, but the 10th was right about everything all along

The Ghostbuster

Can we stop this merry-go-round? It's way past time to get off and move on.

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Plutonic Panda


Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

roadman65

Quote from: Rothman on September 30, 2025, 07:00:47 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2025, 05:33:46 AMSeems like some good news about this project moving forward: https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/new-phase-begins-in-key-bridge-rebuild

Can't blame you for missing a previous mention of the pile-driving in the mess of this thread. :D

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34669.1050#msg3004897

Can't you say anything nice.  Just because you have the same name as the Van Halen founding vocalist, don't mean you need to copy his ego.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Max Rockatansky

What wasn't nice about that?  The news story was buried by a pile of garbage posts.

Beltway

The Key Bridge Clearance Dilemma

The proposed 230-foot vertical navigational clearance (VNC) for the new Francis Scott Key Bridge is being framed as a forward-looking investment in maritime access. But beneath the engineering specs lies a deeper choreography of speculative infrastructure inheritance, strategic misalignment, and fiscal overreach. The clearance figure doesn't just reflect Baltimore's port ambitions -- it quietly anticipates a future Chesapeake Bay Bridge replacement with matching clearance. That assumption, however, is neither confirmed nor funded.

Currently, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge offers only 186 feet of VNC. For the Key Bridge's added clearance to be functionally useful to taller vessels, the Bay Bridge would need to be rebuilt with similar specs. The Tier 1 Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) for the Chesapeake Bay Crossing Study identifies Corridor 7 -- aligned with the existing bridge -- as the Preferred Corridor Alternative. But it stops short of committing to any specific design, span count, or clearances either horizontal or vertical. Those decisions are deferred to a Tier 2 NEPA review, which could take 4-5 years and may not result in a full replacement.

In the meantime, media speculation has floated the idea of demolishing the existing spans and building two new bridges with 8 or 10 lanes and 230-foot VNC. Yet this vision assumes a level of funding and political will that remains entirely speculative. A more affordable and practical alternative -- constructing a single new eastbound 3-lane span to supplement the existing westbound and eastbound bridges -- has received far less attention, despite its fiscal realism and legacy stewardship potential.

If the Bay Bridge is not rebuilt to match the Key Bridge's clearance, the result will be a stranded asset: a 230-foot VNC monument that cannot serve the vessels it was designed to accommodate. This is not visionary planning -- it's symbolic overbuild. Worse yet, Maryland is seeking 100% federal funding for the Key Bridge replacement, above and beyond the state's normal federal aid highway allocations, asking taxpayers nationwide to subsidize a clearance spec that may remain idle for decades, or indefinitely.

There's a more strategic alternative: build an outer harbor tunnel to replace the Key Bridge entirely. A tunnel would eliminate vertical clearance constraints altogether, allowing unrestricted maritime access without relying on speculative coordination with the Bay Bridge. It would also reduce long-term maintenance costs, improve resilience, avoid ship strike, avoid ship conflagration/explosion, and avoid the symbolic mismatch of building for vessels that can't reach the harbor. In this light, the 230-foot clearance becomes not just misaligned -- it becomes unnecessary -- and the higher bridge will require commensurately longer approach spans to maintain acceptable grades and will be commensurately more expensive to build.

This isn't just a technical misstep -- it's a failure of phased rollout logic. Infrastructure should be coordinated, not choreographed in isolation. The Key Bridge's clearance sets the stage for a future that may never arrive, threading ambition without assurance. It reflects a broader pattern of collapse choreography, where legacy infrastructure is erased without confirmed inheritance, and speculative specs become national obligations.

In short, the 230-foot VNC is not just a number -- it's a symbol of strategic drift. Without a matching Bay Bridge, it becomes a monument to misalignment. And without fiscal discipline, it becomes a federally funded spectacle shielding regional overreach. Infrastructure stewardship demands more than height -- it demands clarity, coordination, and legacy logic. MDTA fails miserably and catastrophically.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/Balt_Outer_Harbor_Proposed.html#Key-Bridge-Clearance-Dilemma

----------
The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) has approved the Bay Crossing Study: Tier 1 NEPA combined Final Environmental Impact Statement and Record of Decision (FEIS/ROD). The combined FEIS/ROD was approved on April 14, 2022 and formally identifies Corridor 7 – the corridor containing the existing Bay Bridge – as the Selected Corridor Alternative.

Bay Crossing Study: Tier 1 NEPA combined Final Environmental Impact Statement and Record of Decision (FEIS/ROD)
https://www.baycrossingstudy.com/study-process/tier-1-study-completed/tier1-feis-rod
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

And if they didn't raise the clearance, you'd blame them for being not forward-thinking enough...given the eventual replacement of the Bay Bridge...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.