OpenStreetMap

[vdeane]

So if any at-grade makes a road a trunk highway, does that mean US 36 in St. Joseph should be trunk too, due to the two at-grade ramps? 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/39.74912/-94.85761

That's an interesting case.  I'd mark it at trunk between the at-grades in that interchange (which is clearly NOT freeway-freeway).  A similar situation is the traffic light on NY 198.  If we use my standard of "MapWorks is the most awesome thing to happen in the entire history of the multiverse and can do no wrong", then it's a freeway.  If you use the apparent OSM standard of "if there's even a hint of an at-grade anywhere on the road then it's a trunk no matter where on the route you are", then it's trunk, despite functioning as a freeway (albeit one with an absurdly low speed limit).

[Bickendan]

If you use the apparent OSM standard of "if there's even a hint of an at-grade anywhere on the road then it's a trunk no matter where on the route you are", then it's trunk, despite functioning as a freeway (albeit one with an absurdly low speed limit).

I-10, I-40 and I-78 would like a word. And, as far as I can tell, only I-78's marked correctly while I-10 and I-40's 'trunk' sections have been removed.
Oh, and I-5 across the Columbia River, but draw bridges are exceptions.

[jakeroot]

Because I felt like screwing with Paul, I changed everything back to motorway and provided a link to the state map showing the respective sections as freeway. Not sure how he can argue with that.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33587233#map=14/45.6572/-122.6097

Worth noting: my initial comment included an incorrect link to the state highway map, so I've added a new comment with the correct link.

[Bickendan]

lol

You should have tagged it to my changeset thread.

[Bickendan]

Can someone switch Tillamook Junction (OR 6 at US 26) from motorway to trunk? For some reason I can't select segments on OSM itself and JOSM's tied to the Opengeofiction dataset. Mountaindale Road is an at-grade and the motorway portion of the Sunset begins there, not at the Tillamook Junction (wish ODOT would address that...).

[route56]

Because I felt like screwing with Paul, I changed everything back to motorway and provided a link to the state map showing the respective sections as freeway. Not sure how he can argue with that.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33587233#map=14/45.6572/-122.6097

You missed half a SPUI

I have a similar situation in Johnson County KS.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/38.9980/-94.8213

Between Bonner Springs and Olathe, there are alternating sections that qualify as freeway, and sections with at-grade intersections.

Before I made changes, it was shown as motorway from north of the Nettleton interchange to the 43rd Street intersection, trunk from 43rd to 75th, and motorway from 75th to Olathe. The problem is, KDOT recently converted the intersection with Johnson Drive to an interchange, and there is a grade crossing with a private drive between 83rd and Prairie Star Parkway. Also, I prefer that the motorway/trunk transition occur at a break prior to a grade crossing. Thus, I moved the first motorway/trunk transition point to the south end of the Kansas River bridge and changed a segment to motorway from the asphalt/PCCP transition north of the Johnson Drive interchange to a speed limit change between Shawnee Mission Parkway and 75th Street. I extended the second trunk segment south to between the private crossing and PSP (and added the service roads that tied to K-7)

[jakeroot]

Because I felt like screwing with Paul, I changed everything back to motorway and provided a link to the state map showing the respective sections as freeway. Not sure how he can argue with that.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33587233#map=14/45.6572/-122.6097

You missed half a SPUI

Depends on your definition of "motorway". As far as I'm concerned, after the last grade-separated interchange, a road should revert to trunk status, thus any and all ramps to and from such a road should not have motorway links, but rather trunk links.

In theory, I should have ended by motorway (going east) after the NE 112th junction, to be consistent.

[route56]

Depends on your definition of "motorway". As far as I'm concerned, after the last grade-separated interchange, a road should revert to trunk status, thus any and all ramps to and from such a road should not have motorway links, but rather trunk links.

As I noted with my K-7 example, I try to split the difference between the interchange and the at-grade, preferably at a natural 'break point' (e.g. a bridge, speed limit change, or pavement change)

Some of the OSM mappers over in my region do the exact opposite of your example -- they mark the motorway/trunk transition at the first at-grade.

[jakeroot]

Some of the OSM mappers over in my region do the exact opposite of your example -- they mark the motorway/trunk transition at the first at-grade.

Indeed. I have seen both my example and that example. I based my start/end point on how they often do it in the UK (especially since the roads in OSM are based on the UK road hierarchy). Perhaps I will move the motorway start/end points to the signals instead. I don't know.

[vtk]

As I noted with my K-7 example, I try to split the difference between the interchange and the at-grade, preferably at a natural 'break point' (e.g. a bridge, speed limit change, or pavement change)

That's my preference as well. If I can "hide" the transition under an overpass, and there's no other obvious point to locate the change, that's my favorite treatment. In one case, that actually is where the speed limit changes.

[Bickendan]

Some of the OSM mappers over in my region do the exact opposite of your example -- they mark the motorway/trunk transition at the first at-grade.

Indeed. I have seen both my example and that example. I based my start/end point on how they often do it in the UK (especially since the roads in OSM are based on the UK road hierarchy). Perhaps I will move the motorway start/end points to the signals instead. I don't know.

When I did the motorway edits, I had the transition points where the left turn lanes started.

[NE2]

Interstates sometimes end at an intersection (e.g. I-381). They never end at an arbitrary point that supposedly makes the map render nicely.

[rickmastfan67]

Interstates sometimes end at an intersection (e.g. I-381). They never end at an arbitrary point that supposedly makes the map render nicely.

Agreed, especially since they do post the normal signage about no bicycles and other stuff right at the intersection.

[rickmastfan67]

Because I felt like screwing with Paul, I changed everything back to motorway and provided a link to the state map showing the respective sections as freeway. Not sure how he can argue with that.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33587233#map=14/45.6572/-122.6097

Worth noting: my initial comment included an incorrect link to the state highway map, so I've added a new comment with the correct link.

And now Paul is complaining about this on [talk-us].
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2015-September/015261.html
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33669446

[Bickendan]

Incidentally, according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging, I-93 in NH should be tagged as a trunk, but I-10 and 40 in Texas stays motorway (a pity on the last two, I liked being able to tell where the at grades were at a glance). Time to stir the pot a little with a couple minor accuracy edits on WA 14...

[Bickendan]

He thinks WA 500's a Super-4. 

[rickmastfan67]

Be careful so you don't get blocked for being in an edit war.

However, if Paul comes and edits I-376 Business Loop here in Pittsburgh and downgrades it to 'trunk' on it's 'motorway' segments, he's in for a fight over it.

[lordsutch]

I raised an objection on talk-us, and since I've never been involved in editing the segments in question I can't very well be accused of "edit warring."

[route56]

I have also replied in opposition to Paul's revert request. In my post, I referenced this discussion.

Revert request opposed. At best, there needs to be additional discussion within talk-us regarding this before DWG takes any action.

I am not one of the participants that have edited WA 500 recently; however, those that have have brought this up on the AARoads forum. It is the opinion of the AA posters that significant segments of upgradable expressways that have been upgraded to fully controlled access should be tagged as motorway.

I offer as an example this stretch of Kansas Highway 7 between Bonner Springs and Olathe:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33634149

It is 4 lane divided from Lansing to Olathe, and KDOT's future plan is to eventually bring the entire roadway up to freeway standards. I am also personally familiar with this roadway. I have verified and marked the controlled access segments of K-7 as motorway, and the partially controlled access roads as Trunk.

Of note: the interchange at 83rd Street is marked as trunk. There is a at-grade intersection with a service road between the 83rd and Prairie Star Parkway interchanges. This intersection has, in fact, been overlooked by OSM mappers, myself included, in the past.

Richie Kennedy
McLouth, KS

[vdeane]

Be careful so you don't get blocked for being in an edit war.

However, if Paul comes and edits I-376 Business Loop here in Pittsburgh and downgrades it to 'trunk' on it's 'motorway' segments, he's in for a fight over it.

If anyone should get blocked for an edit war on this, it should be the instigator of the war, the "Paul Johnson" character, who strikes me as the most obtuse person I've ever heard of.  How can he not get it through his thick skull that WA 500 is two freeway sections with an expressway section in between?  What is with his obsession with having the entire route classified as the same thing even when it leads to inaccuracy?  Why does he feel that his bureaucratic importance is so important that data must be made inaccurate as a result?  And why has he not been banned for this behavior?  Is he so stupid that he can't even look on street view to see that the road is divided?  He doesn't even seem to be capable of realizing that MANY freeways end at traffic lights.  Seriously, this guy is so obsessed with his own ego that he's destroying everything that was great about OSM.

[route56]

Paul has replied to my post

I'm kind of seeing that as abuse of classification and classification creep as well.  I'd probably have gone with trunk for the entire length of KS 7 from KS 32 to KS 10 rather than spin the wheel and creep it upwards.  I'm not really seeing a significant difference in characteristic in the WA 500 example or the KS 7 example from the 70 MPH sections of OK 33 or US 75 between Tulsa and Bartlesville, OK.  All four are surface freeways with regular intersections.  This one doesn't "go to 11", folks; if you think you need a mix of motorway and trunk, it's probably just a trunk.

[Bickendan]

So what makes the northwest so special that they can just disregard common usage? I'm familiar with the road, and with WSDOT's idiosyncrasies.

If you were familiar with the road, why call it a Super-4 when it's not? Why compare it to OR 224, when such a comparison is disingenuous at best?
And speaking of OR 224, it is incorrectly mapped as a twinned highway when it isn't.

The changeset discussion's going in circles at this point. Link for those wanting to catch up.

[jakeroot]

This is absolutely hilarious. And I want to jump in but I don't know what to say that won't come across a n00bish.

POST MERGE 15:32 PST, 2 September 2015

EDIT: Well, I jumped in. Basically, I told him that mapping the real-world is more important than continuity within OSM. Placing the latter in front of the former ruins the point of OSM in the first place.

[Bickendan]

Akin to the cartographic integrity argument I've been making.

[jakeroot]

Akin to the cartographic integrity argument I've been making.

Exactly.

Also, not sure who Chris Lawrence is, but I'm glad to see he disagrees with Paul.