Interstate 11

[pumpkineater2]

I think the route down 303 could work nicely for now, it actually would shorten the distance as it's a more direct route between Phoenix and Las Vegas, and it's the route I now use to get to Nevada.  303 also has long term plans to reach south to link into I-8 and to serve the City of Maricopa.

I totally agree with you. Routing it along loop 303 is the most sensible option if they want it to connect with the Phoenix area. I mean, they already have 11 or so miles of high quality freeway built between US 60 and I-10, with another mile currently under construction, and the plans for it to possibly reach I-8 like you said. So why not incorporate the study for the 303(http://www.azdot.gov/projects/phoenix-metro-area/loop-303-from-sr-30-to-hassayampa-freeway/map) with the section of the I-11 study near the Southwestern and western Phoenix metro area(http://i11study.com/Arizona/study-area.asp), and Make the I-11 study include the 303/ US 60 corridor?

According to the latter study's map, I-11 isn't planned to get anywhere close to Phoenix, yet there was all this whining about how Phoenix and Las Vegas were the two biggest cities without an interstate connecting them. Well, if I-11 gets built the way it is currently planned, and billions of dollars are spent and resources used, Phoenix and Las Vegas will still be the two largest cities not connected by an interstate.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm always amused that all these documents that come out say I-11 is going to the border in Nogalas when I-19 is already there.  From what I recall there was talk of a western bypass of Tucson that would hook back up with I-10 or terminate at I-19.  That said isn't I-10 between Phoenix and Tucson (excluding the 4 lanes in the Gila Reservation) more than enough between these two cities?  What is west of Tucson?....nothing really, just Three Points and an area that doesn't really need an Interstate.  Even up around Phoenix the original plans called for I-11 to be routed west of the White Tanks probably due to the influence of Buckeye promising annexed land for use.  the logical travel corridor and most cost effective travel corridor in the Phoenix area would be to follow US 60 out of Wickenburg down to the Loop 303 south and then onto I-10.  Even a short multiplex of I-10 and gradual up grade of AZ 85 to I-8 would make infinite more sense than trying to bring I-11 to Tucson or the border down in that direction.

I think the route down 303 could work nicely for now, it actually would shorten the distance as it's a more direct route between Phoenix and Las Vegas, and it's the route I now use to get to Nevada.  303 also has long term plans to reach south to link into I-8 and to serve the City of Maricopa.  However, I think the I-11 plan is thinking more long-term for the planned growth in Arizona.  Pre-I-11 plans there were plans for an outer Loop 404 that follows the same line as I-11 west of the White Tanks, with the idea that 303 will become an urban area in the future and will create the need for an outer ring.  The planned growth between Phoenix and Tucson also would make I-10 between the two cities a fairly urban freeway with the exception of the reservation areas.  A need for somewhat of a bypass has been also planned, which I-11 handles- so for California to Texas and eastward traffic, the idea is a big "Phoenix-Tucson Metro" would need a way to route traffic outside of it.

But that's the thing, there isn't ANYONE out there west of the White Tanks along the Hassayampa River.  Basically if you look at the urban growth in the Phoenix Metro Area it all has been within the exposed valley bounded by the major mountain ranges such as the White Tanks, Estrellas, McDowells, Superstition, South Mountain and even to an extent the Bradshaws.  Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that all of the sudden urban sprawl is going to take root out there?  I mean it's isolated as all hell, wouldn't the Interstate Route be better served by something that has a sizable population now and will see significant growth in the next 20 years?...the 303 loop will.  Besides couldn't ADOT just look at building a 404 freeway if it ever was so merited?...they probably could easily if the growth ever really started.

Some other details bother me about the project from Wickenburg south to Tucson.  Firstly, I don't know if this is still the current plan but all the documents that I was reading showed a western bypass of Wickenburg in the Vulture Mountains.  Is there any particular reason that the bypass be more easterly around Wickenburg possibly along the Hassayampa and overtaking US 60?  I'm sure Morristown, Circle City and Wittman would be more than sufficiently served with an I-11 business route not to mention a much better connection with AZ74.

So is the goal to build a western bypass of Tucson?  Much like the western regions of the White Tanks there isn't much of anything out there and likely won't be for decades, if ever.  I think it's a huge assumption that an Interstate through barren land is going to encourage growth, it sure didn't for I-5 in San Joaquin Valley in California...  So with that in mind that's a assuming a huge amount of growth in the Goodyear annexation area to get I-11 to run through to I-8 just to serve Maricopa and Casa Grande. 

There is also a lot of talk about a Phoenix/Tucson Metroplex that I've seen, the cities are close but aren't remotely within the ballpark of being talked about becoming one metro area.  First you have the Gila Reservation which will never see any urban sprawl from Phoenix, even with the 202 extension around South Mountain.  So that's just going to push the urban growth to San Tan Valley, Florence and Coolidge in Pinal County well far away from the proposed I-11 corridor.  If this is supposed to be a true bypass of Tucson why not have I-11 routed in such a way that it over takes the US 60 freeway out to AZ 79 instead?  One I-11 could be routed east of the Santa Catalina Range along the San Pedro river to I-10 and Benson?  ADOT has looked at this corridor before to add a Arizona State Route previously, it sure would cut commercial traffic down in Tucson and serve as a sufficient bypass to Texas. 

The route from Vegas to Wickenburg is sound for the most part but there is a lot of wonky kinks that need to be worked out in the plans for I-11.  I'm not even getting into how difficult it's going to be to get I-11 through Coyote Pass in Kingman and down Beale Street....that's a cluster $$@@ of eminent domain.  Basically what I'm throwing out there would basically kill US 60 west of Superior and trade one empty stretch of desert for another....

Speaking of bypasses, I know this off topic but how come nobody ever talks about building a complete Interstate quality route from Cordes Junction at I-17 to I-40 in Ash Fork?  The route would bypass Flagstaff and serve the Prescott area pretty well while making a serviceable alternative to the US 93 corridor.  The Pioneer Parkway basically already is almost a complete freeway from AZ 69 to AZ 89 in Prescott Valley.  Maybe this would make a fine three digit Interstate 317?

[Sonic99]

But that's the thing, there isn't ANYONE out there west of the White Tanks along the Hassayampa River.  Basically if you look at the urban growth in the Phoenix Metro Area it all has been within the exposed valley bounded by the major mountain ranges such as the White Tanks, Estrellas, McDowells, Superstition, South Mountain and even to an extent the Bradshaws.  Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that all of the sudden urban sprawl is going to take root out there?  I mean it's isolated as all hell, wouldn't the Interstate Route be better served by something that has a sizable population now and will see significant growth in the next 20 years?...the 303 loop will.  Besides couldn't ADOT just look at building a 404 freeway if it ever was so merited?...they probably could easily if the growth ever really started.

Some other details bother me about the project from Wickenburg south to Tucson.  Firstly, I don't know if this is still the current plan but all the documents that I was reading showed a western bypass of Wickenburg in the Vulture Mountains.  Is there any particular reason that the bypass be more easterly around Wickenburg possibly along the Hassayampa and overtaking US 60?  I'm sure Morristown, Circle City and Wittman would be more than sufficiently served with an I-11 business route not to mention a much better connection with AZ74.

So is the goal to build a western bypass of Tucson?  Much like the western regions of the White Tanks there isn't much of anything out there and likely won't be for decades, if ever.  I think it's a huge assumption that an Interstate through barren land is going to encourage growth, it sure didn't for I-5 in San Joaquin Valley in California...  So with that in mind that's a assuming a huge amount of growth in the Goodyear annexation area to get I-11 to run through to I-8 just to serve Maricopa and Casa Grande. 

There is also a lot of talk about a Phoenix/Tucson Metroplex that I've seen, the cities are close but aren't remotely within the ballpark of being talked about becoming one metro area.  First you have the Gila Reservation which will never see any urban sprawl from Phoenix, even with the 202 extension around South Mountain.  So that's just going to push the urban growth to San Tan Valley, Florence and Coolidge in Pinal County well far away from the proposed I-11 corridor.  If this is supposed to be a true bypass of Tucson why not have I-11 routed in such a way that it over takes the US 60 freeway out to AZ 79 instead?  One I-11 could be routed east of the Santa Catalina Range along the San Pedro river to I-10 and Benson?  ADOT has looked at this corridor before to add a Arizona State Route previously, it sure would cut commercial traffic down in Tucson and serve as a sufficient bypass to Texas. 

The route from Vegas to Wickenburg is sound for the most part but there is a lot of wonky kinks that need to be worked out in the plans for I-11.  I'm not even getting into how difficult it's going to be to get I-11 through Coyote Pass in Kingman and down Beale Street....that's a cluster $$@@ of eminent domain.  Basically what I'm throwing out there would basically kill US 60 west of Superior and trade one empty stretch of desert for another....

Speaking of bypasses, I know this off topic but how come nobody ever talks about building a complete Interstate quality route from Cordes Junction at I-17 to I-40 in Ash Fork?  The route would bypass Flagstaff and serve the Prescott area pretty well while making a serviceable alternative to the US 93 corridor.  The Pioneer Parkway basically already is almost a complete freeway from AZ 69 to AZ 89 in Prescott Valley.  Maybe this would make a fine three digit Interstate 317?

Out west of the White Tanks, there actually was development going out there before the Recession hit in 2008. There is a development up along Sun Valley Parkway north of the White Tanks called Copper Canyon, and one out along Sun Valley Parkway west of the mountains called Tartesso. Expansion and development was just getting out there when everything crashed in 2008. Also, look along I-10 south of the White Tanks at things like Verrado and the developments stretching out to AZ 85. The recession put a halt to stuff out there, but I have no doubt that given another 10 years, the ball will roll again out there past the White Tanks.

As for pushing I-11 out to the east, that defeats the purpose of what they want I-11 to do, which is connect to the Mexican border near Nogales for trade purposes. Running west of Phoenix and Tucson is much more direct for that purpose.

As for the Cordes-Prescott-Ash Fork freeway, I can safely say there's no reason for it (I live in Prescott and travel regularly all around the Tri-Cities). AZ 69 is already 4 lane divided highway all the way to Dewey, Fain Rd is already 4 lane divided highway with a grade separated interchange at Lakeshore Drive. It joins AZ 89A at Robert Rd at an at-grade intersection, but that is scheduled to be grade-separated around 2021 I believe. Then AZ 89 from 89A to the north is mostly 4-laned now up through Chino Valley, 2-laned up through Paulden and on up to Ash Fork. Honestly, these roadways are basically sufficient for the foreseeable future, upgrading to Interstate would be complete overkill. They need some minor tweaking (maybe add a couple passing lanes between Paulden and Ash Fork for example) and obviously maintenance (the asphalt on 89 north of Paulden could definitely be replaced as it's very rough in places).

[Max Rockatansky]

But that's the thing, there isn't ANYONE out there west of the White Tanks along the Hassayampa River.  Basically if you look at the urban growth in the Phoenix Metro Area it all has been within the exposed valley bounded by the major mountain ranges such as the White Tanks, Estrellas, McDowells, Superstition, South Mountain and even to an extent the Bradshaws.  Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that all of the sudden urban sprawl is going to take root out there?  I mean it's isolated as all hell, wouldn't the Interstate Route be better served by something that has a sizable population now and will see significant growth in the next 20 years?...the 303 loop will.  Besides couldn't ADOT just look at building a 404 freeway if it ever was so merited?...they probably could easily if the growth ever really started.

Some other details bother me about the project from Wickenburg south to Tucson.  Firstly, I don't know if this is still the current plan but all the documents that I was reading showed a western bypass of Wickenburg in the Vulture Mountains.  Is there any particular reason that the bypass be more easterly around Wickenburg possibly along the Hassayampa and overtaking US 60?  I'm sure Morristown, Circle City and Wittman would be more than sufficiently served with an I-11 business route not to mention a much better connection with AZ74.

So is the goal to build a western bypass of Tucson?  Much like the western regions of the White Tanks there isn't much of anything out there and likely won't be for decades, if ever.  I think it's a huge assumption that an Interstate through barren land is going to encourage growth, it sure didn't for I-5 in San Joaquin Valley in California...  So with that in mind that's a assuming a huge amount of growth in the Goodyear annexation area to get I-11 to run through to I-8 just to serve Maricopa and Casa Grande. 

There is also a lot of talk about a Phoenix/Tucson Metroplex that I've seen, the cities are close but aren't remotely within the ballpark of being talked about becoming one metro area.  First you have the Gila Reservation which will never see any urban sprawl from Phoenix, even with the 202 extension around South Mountain.  So that's just going to push the urban growth to San Tan Valley, Florence and Coolidge in Pinal County well far away from the proposed I-11 corridor.  If this is supposed to be a true bypass of Tucson why not have I-11 routed in such a way that it over takes the US 60 freeway out to AZ 79 instead?  One I-11 could be routed east of the Santa Catalina Range along the San Pedro river to I-10 and Benson?  ADOT has looked at this corridor before to add a Arizona State Route previously, it sure would cut commercial traffic down in Tucson and serve as a sufficient bypass to Texas. 

The route from Vegas to Wickenburg is sound for the most part but there is a lot of wonky kinks that need to be worked out in the plans for I-11.  I'm not even getting into how difficult it's going to be to get I-11 through Coyote Pass in Kingman and down Beale Street....that's a cluster $$@@ of eminent domain.  Basically what I'm throwing out there would basically kill US 60 west of Superior and trade one empty stretch of desert for another....

Speaking of bypasses, I know this off topic but how come nobody ever talks about building a complete Interstate quality route from Cordes Junction at I-17 to I-40 in Ash Fork?  The route would bypass Flagstaff and serve the Prescott area pretty well while making a serviceable alternative to the US 93 corridor.  The Pioneer Parkway basically already is almost a complete freeway from AZ 69 to AZ 89 in Prescott Valley.  Maybe this would make a fine three digit Interstate 317?

Out west of the White Tanks, there actually was development going out there before the Recession hit in 2008. There is a development up along Sun Valley Parkway north of the White Tanks called Copper Canyon, and one out along Sun Valley Parkway west of the mountains called Tartesso. Expansion and development was just getting out there when everything crashed in 2008. Also, look along I-10 south of the White Tanks at things like Verrado and the developments stretching out to AZ 85. The recession put a halt to stuff out there, but I have no doubt that given another 10 years, the ball will roll again out there past the White Tanks.

As for pushing I-11 out to the east, that defeats the purpose of what they want I-11 to do, which is connect to the Mexican border near Nogales for trade purposes. Running west of Phoenix and Tucson is much more direct for that purpose.

As for the Cordes-Prescott-Ash Fork freeway, I can safely say there's no reason for it (I live in Prescott and travel regularly all around the Tri-Cities). AZ 69 is already 4 lane divided highway all the way to Dewey, Fain Rd is already 4 lane divided highway with a grade separated interchange at Lakeshore Drive. It joins AZ 89A at Robert Rd at an at-grade intersection, but that is scheduled to be grade-separated around 2021 I believe. Then AZ 89 from 89A to the north is mostly 4-laned now up through Chino Valley, 2-laned up through Paulden and on up to Ash Fork. Honestly, these roadways are basically sufficient for the foreseeable future, upgrading to Interstate would be complete overkill. They need some minor tweaking (maybe add a couple passing lanes between Paulden and Ash Fork for example) and obviously maintenance (the asphalt on 89 north of Paulden could definitely be replaced as it's very rough in places).

That's part of the problem with Maricopa County in general, they seem pretty assumptive that the pre-recession growth that led to the housing bubble is going to come back.  I have a lot of family in Arizona and did live in the state for quite a long time myself.  If I recall correctly it's mostly just Sun City Grand straddling the north side of the White Tanks with some westward development on the Sun Valley Parkway.  There is still a ton of empty space available on the boundaries of Surprise, Glendale and El Mirage not to mention the northern segment of the 303....so I don't get it, where is the assumption that growth is going to happen west of the White Tanks?  Is there some developer ready to line up a ton of cash to start building in all that land Buckeye annexed that I'm just not hearing about?  It just seems awfully coincidental that Buckeye and Goodyear would suddenly grab up all that empty desert land only to be leading the push so hard I-11 to come their towns a couple years down the road. 

The great irony in all this is that we are talking about two Metro areas that fought freeway expansion tooth and nail just a couple decades ago.  I remember when I-10 didn't stand a chance of being completed in downtown Phoenix much less projects like the Camelback freeway or even a spur freeway in Tucson.  The logical routes for I-11 in the Valley just seem to be ignored over and over in favor of "something that might be there in the future."  It just seems like that this has all gotten out of hand with trying to expand I-11 when it even has been completed between the two principle cities it's designed to serve.  Why not just get I-11 up and running between Phoenix and Las Vegas then seeing if there is a transportation need at that point? 

The Prescott deal was just a somewhat sarcastic suggestion about an Interstate routing....given that AZ 89 is in bunch of barren pine country as opposed to barren desert.  Personally I would much prefer to see the Prescott area back on a US Highway or two.  It's just ironic that they have built up a freeway with practically almost nobody taking notice at all.  Even the I-17 ramp at Cordes Junction and AZ 69 have been substantially updated beyond any design standard that would expect.

Incidentally what about I-11 being routed over current AZ 74 to I-17?  I know that Peoria grabbed up a ton of land up by Lake Pleasant recently, I'm surprised they haven't thrown their name into the ring...

[coatimundi]

Out west of the White Tanks, there actually was development going out there before the Recession hit in 2008. There is a development up along Sun Valley Parkway north of the White Tanks called Copper Canyon, and one out along Sun Valley Parkway west of the mountains called Tartesso. Expansion and development was just getting out there when everything crashed in 2008.

Sun Valley was the name of the original development in the 80's that resulted in the parkway, and it was supposed to be this new, self-contained city built out in the desert. Until the developers ran into a bunch of problems, including yet another housing slump in the late 80's that followed the boom, and that no one seemed to remember 20 years later. Article
There was a similar proposal northwest of Tucson before the housing bust. And then the developer was fined for infecting the bighorn population in the Silverbell Mountains with an eye disease from his domesticated sheep, and illegally blading archaeological sites. But Tucson didn't get a nice piece of 4-lane blacktop out of it.
Article

Regarding the western bypass around Tucson: it's been talked about as long as I can recall, but I think the biggest hurdle is the thin line it has to follow between the Tohono O'Odham Nation and Saguaro National Park. There's just not another way to route it except down Sandario Road. Pima County would never approve of this, and you'd see local residents fight this tooth and nail, much harder than they fought the mine proposal in the Santa Ritas, which was recently cancelled. Pushing it west would just draw more fire from the O'Odhams, because it then starts getting close to Kitt Peak and Baboquivari, and it would put it closer to the Ironwood Forest NM land. I just don't see how this is at all possible. And I don't see how they can warrant a bypass with the current traffic counts, especially on 19, which is pretty desolate once you get past the bedroom communities south of Tucson.

[kdk]

I know the idea of the "west of the White Tank mountains" ideas seem crazy since the housing boom is long gone, but the idea is to determine these corridors now and to preserve them before the land becomes more expensive, or developed.  They may just be lines on paper now and not even needed for 30 years, but if the future freeway corridor can be preserved now it makes those projects eventually viable.  Also, most of that land west of the White Tanks is owned by housing developers (at least those that were able to hang on) with the long term plan to be ready for the next boom.   I saw this going back to the 80's in areas that have been long developed where you saw the Loop 101 corridor being saved from development.
Plus you always have the idea that building the freeway would spur something- which is what you see here-  http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2014/03/proposed-interstate-11-has-support-of-land-owners.html

These developers are gladly donating land for the freeway corridor just to get it through their land.

[Max Rockatansky]

I know the idea of the "west of the White Tank mountains" ideas seem crazy since the housing boom is long gone, but the idea is to determine these corridors now and to preserve them before the land becomes more expensive, or developed.  They may just be lines on paper now and not even needed for 30 years, but if the future freeway corridor can be preserved now it makes those projects eventually viable.  Also, most of that land west of the White Tanks is owned by housing developers (at least those that were able to hang on) with the long term plan to be ready for the next boom.   I saw this going back to the 80's in areas that have been long developed where you saw the Loop 101 corridor being saved from development.
Plus you always have the idea that building the freeway would spur something- which is what you see here-  http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2014/03/proposed-interstate-11-has-support-of-land-owners.html

These developers are gladly donating land for the freeway corridor just to get it through their land.

I distinctly remember the 101 Corridor in Scottsdale and the hell it was driving down Pima or Scottsdale Road to get to Tempe.  The area was infinitely more populated even with the Salt River Reservation right there.  Most of the houses north of the 101 in Scottsdale were largely already there.  Basically what all those developers and Buckeye did during the housing boom was get greedy which turned into a land grab.  Look at the city limits of Buckeye, almost all that land is under their jurisdiction.  Basically you have a bunch of real estate developers and a couple municipalities that are trying to influence an Interstate route that should be direct as possible.  The state highway system should be used to expand west of the White Tanks, I-11 should stick with the Valley proper as the corridor was initially meant to serve the alignment US 60 and US 93 take to Vegas. 

Here is the city limits of Buckeye as they currently stand for reference:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Buckeye,+AZ/@33.5095773,-112.7876573,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d4ab4adc82500d:0xc06d24efdda9f7f6?hl=en

Buckeye sure made sure to annex up all that land that doesn't have people living in it currently.  Funny that they haven't annexed several parcels between I-10, AZ 85 and MC 85 that full well should be in their corporate limit.  It's almost like they are banking on I-11 being routed through their empty land parcels, but who does that serve other than the city of Buckeye?   

And here's Goodyear's annexation for reference, you can see they grabbed up all the land that supposedly I-11 would take to Maricopa.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Goodyear,+AZ/@33.3518034,-112.6987152,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b3a65dfa1b71d:0x67b27a8f85f953fa?hl=en

Rumor was that Goodyear was going to annex everything down to Mobile and AZ 238 but they backed off.  At least Goodyear has pretty much grabbed up all the parcels of unincorporated land near I-10 and the 303, for the most part they seem to have a much more sensible plan. 

But basically this is the reason why the Sonoran Desert National Monument still exists, it was created back in the 90s to stop land grabs like this.  The Ironwood Forest National Monument would also be a serious wrench in the proposed I-11 west bypass of Tucson. 

[Bobby5280]

I'm still trying to understand why the planners on this I-11 project keep insisting the Interstate should be routed clear down to Nogales. I can agree with concepts to route I-11 down as far South as I-8, but going past that makes absolutely no sense and would just waste a huge amount of money.

What are the traffic counts on I-19 between Tucson and Nogales? Tucson is a city of half a million people, with maybe 1 million in the metro area. Nogales is pretty small. Only about 20,000 people. I realize there is a decent amount of commercial traffic entering I-19 from Mexico. But I find it extremely hard to believe there would be enough traffic to warrant building another Interstate parallel to I-19 clear down there. Existing I-19 is just 2 lanes in each direction for all of its length. I-19 by itself is probably good enough. If more capacity is needed ADOT has more than enough ROW to add additional lanes to I-19.

The terrain and development between Tucson and Nogales complicates matters even more. It gets rough, hilly and even mountainous on both sides of I-19 South of Sahuarita. I-19 itself runs along the Santa Cruz river valley to Nogales. There's plenty of development along side the existing highway. Where would a parallel I-11 route be built without it costing a gigantic fortune? I'm not a big fan of concurrences, but I-11 would almost certainly be forced to share the same route with I-19 from Sahuarita all the way down to Nogales. Ending two concurrent Interstate highways in the same place just seems stupid to me.

Tucson is a big enough city to justify building an Interstate quality loop highway or bypass, but this grandiose routing of I-11 isn't the right way to do it. A real I-10 relief route for Tucson should start somewhere SE of Tucson between Vail and Littletown. It would run Westward between Tucson International Airport and Summit and cross I-19 South of Drexel Heights. The route would curve up West of Wasson Peak and then dovetail back into I-10 around Marana.

I-11 first and foremost just needs to function as an Interstate quality link between Phoenix and Las Vegas. This Nogales stuff is a high priced distraction. It's too bad US-60 in Phoenix is so boxed in with development. That makes it impossible to route I-11 directly into downtown for the foreseeable future. Coming from Las Vegas, I-11 seems predestined to hang a right at Loop 303 and head South to terminate at I-10.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm still trying to understand why the planners on this I-11 project keep insisting the Interstate should be routed clear down to Nogales. I can agree with concepts to route I-11 down as far South as I-8, but going past that makes absolutely no sense and would just waste a huge amount of money.

What are the traffic counts on I-19 between Tucson and Nogales? Tucson is a city of half a million people, with maybe 1 million in the metro area. Nogales is pretty small. Only about 20,000 people. I realize there is a decent amount of commercial traffic entering I-19 from Mexico. But I find it extremely hard to believe there would be enough traffic to warrant building another Interstate parallel to I-19 clear down there. Existing I-19 is just 2 lanes in each direction for all of its length. I-19 by itself is probably good enough. If more capacity is needed ADOT has more than enough ROW to add additional lanes to I-19.

The terrain and development between Tucson and Nogales complicates matters even more. It gets rough, hilly and even mountainous on both sides of I-19 South of Sahuarita. I-19 itself runs along the Santa Cruz river valley to Nogales. There's plenty of development along side the existing highway. Where would a parallel I-11 route be built without it costing a gigantic fortune? I'm not a big fan of concurrences, but I-11 would almost certainly be forced to share the same route with I-19 from Sahuarita all the way down to Nogales. Ending two concurrent Interstate highways in the same place just seems stupid to me.

Tucson is a big enough city to justify building an Interstate quality loop highway or bypass, but this grandiose routing of I-11 isn't the right way to do it. A real I-10 relief route for Tucson should start somewhere SE of Tucson between Vail and Littletown. It would run Westward between Tucson International Airport and Summit and cross I-19 South of Drexel Heights. The route would curve up West of Wasson Peak and then dovetail back into I-10 around Marana.

I-11 first and foremost just needs to function as an Interstate quality link between Phoenix and Las Vegas. This Nogales stuff is a high priced distraction. It's too bad US-60 in Phoenix is so boxed in with development. That makes it impossible to route I-11 directly into downtown for the foreseeable future. Coming from Las Vegas, I-11 seems predestined to hang a right at Loop 303 and head South to terminate at I-10.

Yeah it's way too built up on US 60/Grand nowadays to make that economically feasible....although it is the most ideal route, hence what I threw out there about using US 60 to 303 south to reach I-10.  Basically you have the normal eminent domain you would have to deal with in regards all the heavy industry and commercial property along Grand in addition to rerouting a rail line....it will never happen unfortunately much like the Camelback Freeway went bust.

I think the ultimate goal is for I-11 to reach I-19, not run along the I-19 corridor itself.  But you're hitting on pretty much the point I've been making that the existing Interstates are more than sufficient as is from Tucson south.  I would prefer an alignment that either take AZ 85 to I-8 or somehow reaches it eventually via Goodyear's annexation by way out Maricopa and Casa Grande. 

As it stands Tucson can't even get an a three digit Interstate or freeway quality state route off the ground.  The closest thing Tucson has is AZ 210 but that's still stuck in study last I checked to build that up as a freeway. 

[Sub-Urbanite]

I'm still trying to understand why the planners on this I-11 project keep insisting the Interstate should be routed clear down to Nogales. I can agree with concepts to route I-11 down as far South as I-8, but going past that makes absolutely no sense and would just waste a huge amount of money.

Because it's better to have a concept plan and get a project in the pipeline and then never build it, than to find a need 20 years from now and have to start from scratch on addressing it.

Plans change. Projects change. Better that they exist than not.

[Bobby5280]

The I-11 thing down to Nogales isn't much of a concept plan. It's impractical and doesn't even make any sense.

If they want to get a freeway project in the pipeline to build decades in the future then they just need to copy what Texas has done pretty well: get the right of way secured first, typically by building a wide, divided street with enough median to build the whole thing in the future.

It drives me nuts how Oklahoma never could figure out how to copy that technique. Oklahoma City's plans of getting an outer loop highway built have been totally screwed via lack of any kind of future planning. They just let any idiot put up a housing development, school, Walmart or whatever right in the path of the future highway corridor.

At least Arizona has copied Texas' approach to some degree in a few places.

I think the ultimate goal is for I-11 to reach I-19, not run along the I-19 corridor itself.  But you're hitting on pretty much the point I've been making that the existing Interstates are more than sufficient as is from Tucson south.  I would prefer an alignment that either take AZ 85 to I-8 or somehow reaches it eventually via Goodyear's annexation by way out Maricopa and Casa Grande. 

As it stands Tucson can't even get an a three digit Interstate or freeway quality state route off the ground.  The closest thing Tucson has is AZ 210 but that's still stuck in study last I checked to build that up as a freeway.

Tucson has a pretty strong anti-freeway crowd. But the situation there reminds me how Austin was 20 or 30 years ago when I-35 and TX-1 were the only freeways in town. Eventually Tucson will get too developed for its own good and be forced to add at least one freeway bypass. I can remember when Phoenix had no big loop highways either, just I-10 and I-17 in the little inner city loop. The city grew too big to get along without loop highways in the 1980's.

AZ-85 is too far West for any logical I-11 routing. That doesn't mean AZ-85 is off limits to any potential freeway upgrade in the future. The ROW is already in place down to Gila Bend, almost to I-8. The question is if there is enough traffic to justify building the upgrade.

If I-11 is to go South of I-10, I think it should follow an extension of Loop 303 Southward, run diagonal to the West of the Sierra Estrella mountains over to Maricopa and then East to I-10. It wouldn't quite get to Casa Grande, but it would fill out another quadrant of Loop 303.

[Max Rockatansky]

The I-11 thing down to Nogales isn't much of a concept plan. It's impractical and doesn't even make any sense.

If they want to get a freeway project in the pipeline to build decades in the future then they just need to copy what Texas has done pretty well: get the right of way secured first, typically by building a wide, divided street with enough median to build the whole thing in the future.

It drives me nuts how Oklahoma never could figure out how to copy that technique. Oklahoma City's plans of getting an outer loop highway built have been totally screwed via lack of any kind of future planning. They just let any idiot put up a housing development, school, Walmart or whatever right in the path of the future highway corridor.

At least Arizona has copied Texas' approach to some degree in a few places.

I think the ultimate goal is for I-11 to reach I-19, not run along the I-19 corridor itself.  But you're hitting on pretty much the point I've been making that the existing Interstates are more than sufficient as is from Tucson south.  I would prefer an alignment that either take AZ 85 to I-8 or somehow reaches it eventually via Goodyear's annexation by way out Maricopa and Casa Grande. 

As it stands Tucson can't even get an a three digit Interstate or freeway quality state route off the ground.  The closest thing Tucson has is AZ 210 but that's still stuck in study last I checked to build that up as a freeway.

Tucson has a pretty strong anti-freeway crowd. But the situation there reminds me how Austin was 20 or 30 years ago when I-35 and TX-1 were the only freeways in town. Eventually Tucson will get too developed for its own good and be forced to add at least one freeway bypass. I can remember when Phoenix had no big loop highways either, just I-10 and I-17 in the little inner city loop. The city grew too big to get along without loop highways in the 1980's.

AZ-85 is too far West for any logical I-11 routing. That doesn't mean AZ-85 is off limits to any potential freeway upgrade in the future. The ROW is already in place down to Gila Bend, almost to I-8. The question is if there is enough traffic to justify building the upgrade.

If I-11 is to go South of I-10, I think it should follow an extension of Loop 303 Southward, run diagonal to the West of the Sierra Estrella mountains over to Maricopa and then East to I-10. It wouldn't quite get to Casa Grande, but it would fill out another quadrant of Loop 303.

I'm in agreement completely with you in regards to the alignment within the Phoenix area.  The only issue is that Buckeye is trying to influence the alignment way off to the west of the White Tanks because they annexed all the land out there.  If they get their way it would require a huge multiplex with I-10 to get I-11 to that slot through the Estrella Range....or if this AZ 30 plan is real.  Regardless if it ends up Buckeye gets their way it would make more sense to have I-11 overtake AZ 85 to Gila Bend and I-8 since it's already a well used bypass of the Phoenix area.  Ironically Buckeye land grabbed a ton of empty real estate along AZ 85 as well, I'm assuming they are counting on something happening out there eventually.

[kdk]

I know the idea of the "west of the White Tank mountains" ideas seem crazy since the housing boom is long gone, but the idea is to determine these corridors now and to preserve them before the land becomes more expensive, or developed.  They may just be lines on paper now and not even needed for 30 years, but if the future freeway corridor can be preserved now it makes those projects eventually viable.  Also, most of that land west of the White Tanks is owned by housing developers (at least those that were able to hang on) with the long term plan to be ready for the next boom.   I saw this going back to the 80's in areas that have been long developed where you saw the Loop 101 corridor being saved from development.
Plus you always have the idea that building the freeway would spur something- which is what you see here-  http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2014/03/proposed-interstate-11-has-support-of-land-owners.html

These developers are gladly donating land for the freeway corridor just to get it through their land.

Here is the city limits of Buckeye as they currently stand for reference:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Buckeye,+AZ/@33.5095773,-112.7876573,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d4ab4adc82500d:0xc06d24efdda9f7f6?hl=en

Buckeye sure made sure to annex up all that land that doesn't have people living in it currently.  Funny that they haven't annexed several parcels between I-10, AZ 85 and MC 85 that full well should be in their corporate limit.  It's almost like they are banking on I-11 being routed through their empty land parcels, but who does that serve other than the city of Buckeye?   

And here's Goodyear's annexation for reference, you can see they grabbed up all the land that supposedly I-11 would take to Maricopa.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Goodyear,+AZ/@33.3518034,-112.6987152,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b3a65dfa1b71d:0x67b27a8f85f953fa?hl=en

Rumor was that Goodyear was going to annex everything down to Mobile and AZ 238 but they backed off.  At least Goodyear has pretty much grabbed up all the parcels of unincorporated land near I-10 and the 303, for the most part they seem to have a much more sensible plan. 

But basically this is the reason why the Sonoran Desert National Monument still exists, it was created back in the 90s to stop land grabs like this.  The Ironwood Forest National Monument would also be a serious wrench in the proposed I-11 west bypass of Tucson.

Goodyear did in fact annex Mobile and its 80 residents - http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20120919annexations-costing-more-than-imagined.html  or shows up here- http://www.goodyearaz.gov/home/showdocument?id=9854

They are sorry that they did, but have to deal with the costs.  Driving down AZ-238 through this area, I still don't recall Goodyear even signing any of this area with usual "Entering Goodyear City limits" signs you see on other state routes, but you do in drive through the city on that route.  The Maricopa County assesor site actually has a more updated city limit map, not sure why Google Maps isn't always updated.

Back when metro Phoenix was in its boom, housing developers couldn't build fast enough and were out buying land in these far flung places, cities like Buckeye and Goodyear saw dollar signs with all the "impact fees" that they would raise from the development.  I remember when I first got a copy of the new regional planned freeway map, the idea of these future freeways actually didn't seem that far off then with everything planned.  There were even major regional shopping malls planned at future interchanges already for these fictional future freeways.

[Max Rockatansky]

I know the idea of the "west of the White Tank mountains" ideas seem crazy since the housing boom is long gone, but the idea is to determine these corridors now and to preserve them before the land becomes more expensive, or developed.  They may just be lines on paper now and not even needed for 30 years, but if the future freeway corridor can be preserved now it makes those projects eventually viable.  Also, most of that land west of the White Tanks is owned by housing developers (at least those that were able to hang on) with the long term plan to be ready for the next boom.   I saw this going back to the 80's in areas that have been long developed where you saw the Loop 101 corridor being saved from development.
Plus you always have the idea that building the freeway would spur something- which is what you see here-  http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2014/03/proposed-interstate-11-has-support-of-land-owners.html

These developers are gladly donating land for the freeway corridor just to get it through their land.

Here is the city limits of Buckeye as they currently stand for reference:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Buckeye,+AZ/@33.5095773,-112.7876573,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d4ab4adc82500d:0xc06d24efdda9f7f6?hl=en

Buckeye sure made sure to annex up all that land that doesn't have people living in it currently.  Funny that they haven't annexed several parcels between I-10, AZ 85 and MC 85 that full well should be in their corporate limit.  It's almost like they are banking on I-11 being routed through their empty land parcels, but who does that serve other than the city of Buckeye?   

And here's Goodyear's annexation for reference, you can see they grabbed up all the land that supposedly I-11 would take to Maricopa.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Goodyear,+AZ/@33.3518034,-112.6987152,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b3a65dfa1b71d:0x67b27a8f85f953fa?hl=en

Rumor was that Goodyear was going to annex everything down to Mobile and AZ 238 but they backed off.  At least Goodyear has pretty much grabbed up all the parcels of unincorporated land near I-10 and the 303, for the most part they seem to have a much more sensible plan. 

But basically this is the reason why the Sonoran Desert National Monument still exists, it was created back in the 90s to stop land grabs like this.  The Ironwood Forest National Monument would also be a serious wrench in the proposed I-11 west bypass of Tucson.

Goodyear did in fact annex Mobile and its 80 residents - http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20120919annexations-costing-more-than-imagined.html  or shows up here- http://www.goodyearaz.gov/home/showdocument?id=9854

They are sorry that they did, but have to deal with the costs.  Driving down AZ-238 through this area, I still don't recall Goodyear even signing any of this area with usual "Entering Goodyear City limits" signs you see on other state routes, but you do in drive through the city on that route.  The Maricopa County assesor site actually has a more updated city limit map, not sure why Google Maps isn't always updated.

Back when metro Phoenix was in its boom, housing developers couldn't build fast enough and were out buying land in these far flung places, cities like Buckeye and Goodyear saw dollar signs with all the "impact fees" that they would raise from the development.  I remember when I first got a copy of the new regional planned freeway map, the idea of these future freeways actually didn't seem that far off then with everything planned.  There were even major regional shopping malls planned at future interchanges already for these fictional future freeways.

You're right, I was under the impression they backed off annexing Mobile.  Apparently they just aren't going to provide emergency services, that's freaking cute on their part.  Apparently Goodyear seems to think they will have 350,000 residents by 2035.  Phoenix grew in the decade I lived there...gained about a million people in fact.  That kind of upswing doesn't last forever, it sure hasn't for Phoenix so far or Las Vegas.  It looks like home prices are starting to sky rocket again in fact up your way in Scottsdale.  I have a family member that got stuck holding six mortgages in the state during the last crash.  I'm trying to convince him to stay with the house he has and not trying to flip things for a quick.

I guess the question is now is how much people can the Phoenix area really support?  Right now the metro area is about 4.3 million....what happens if that were ever to increase to 6.5 or worse 8 million?  How would the state support this kind of population out in the middle of a desert.  The Gila River is basically extinct at this point and the Salt River wouldn't be too far being with that kind of population.  You already have 37 million Californians putting strain on the Colorado and every other water supply in the state.  There is only much further these places can grow without additional infrastructure beyond just planned freeways, cookie cutter homes and shopping malls.

[kdk]

You're right, I was under the impression they backed off annexing Mobile.  Apparently they just aren't going to provide emergency services, that's freaking cute on their part.  Apparently Goodyear seems to think they will have 350,000 residents by 2035.  Phoenix grew in the decade I lived there...gained about a million people in fact.  That kind of upswing doesn't last forever, it sure hasn't for Phoenix so far or Las Vegas.  It looks like home prices are starting to sky rocket again in fact up your way in Scottsdale.  I have a family member that got stuck holding six mortgages in the state during the last crash.  I'm trying to convince him to stay with the house he has and not trying to flip things for a quick.

I guess the question is now is how much people can the Phoenix area really support?  Right now the metro area is about 4.3 million....what happens if that were ever to increase to 6.5 or worse 8 million?  How would the state support this kind of population out in the middle of a desert.  The Gila River is basically extinct at this point and the Salt River wouldn't be too far being with that kind of population.  You already have 37 million Californians putting strain on the Colorado and every other water supply in the state.  There is only much further these places can grow without additional infrastructure beyond just planned freeways, cookie cutter homes and shopping malls.

Yeah, although we are growing here again, but where the cities are becoming more dense.  Not in the same way though as we were back in 2006- but people live in the homes now that were built in the far flung places like Buckeye, where as when they were built they were all bought up by investors who thought they could rent them out and they sat vacant for years.  Also every single piece of infill land in the urban areas is being developed into apartments, even some of the old obsolete shopping centers are being torn down and replaced with apartments.  There is some of the new construction starting again in the outer areas, like a big master planned community north of Wickenburg along the 93, but there aren't lines of people waiting to buy these now.

Not to get too off topic, but the subject of water here restricting growth isn't really that true.  The farms that are being replaced by the new housing developments actually use less water than the farms did.  So even though we are adding people we are actually using less water than before.  Metro Phoenix can grow to 10-12 million before we really have big water issues to worry about.

[The Ghostbuster]

Now for the other end of Interstate 11. Have they made a decision on the exact route Interstate 11 will take through Las Vegas? Will it utilize existing Interstate 515 (which would be my preference) or will it bypass 515 to the west or the east?

[Max Rockatansky]

[/quote]

Yeah, although we are growing here again, but where the cities are becoming more dense.  Not in the same way though as we were back in 2006- but people live in the homes now that were built in the far flung places like Buckeye, where as when they were built they were all bought up by investors who thought they could rent them out and they sat vacant for years.  Also every single piece of infill land in the urban areas is being developed into apartments, even some of the old obsolete shopping centers are being torn down and replaced with apartments.  There is some of the new construction starting again in the outer areas, like a big master planned community north of Wickenburg along the 93, but there aren't lines of people waiting to buy these now.

Not to get too off topic, but the subject of water here restricting growth isn't really that true.  The farms that are being replaced by the new housing developments actually use less water than the farms did.  So even though we are adding people we are actually using less water than before.  Metro Phoenix can grow to 10-12 million before we really have big water issues to worry about.
[/quote]

Didn't Scottsdale basically buy all it's empty parcels that it had a couple years back?  They were talking about it when I had my house out there years and years ago outside Old Town..  See that's the problem, everyone is saying that about the water supply but is it really going to be that simple?  Roosevelt Lake is below the line of the original masonry dam just off Highway 88.  Even if the water doesn't become a problem it's just going to become another Los Angeles.  The city was so much better at 3 million than it was at 4.3 million today, it's almost like what made it special is being slowly stripped away and turned into another cookie cutter California style city.

[Henry]

Why the hell would they try to build another Interstate to Nogales, when I-19 already exists for that purpose?

[coatimundi]

Now for the other end of Interstate 11. Have they made a decision on the exact route Interstate 11 will take through Las Vegas? Will it utilize existing Interstate 515 (which would be my preference) or will it bypass 515 to the west or the east?

Here's a map of the proposed routes: Article (not posting the image directly because of the copyright issues)

I had thought that the Eastern Beltway was completely off the table at this point. ???
I-215/CR 215 probably wouldn't be the choice of locals because of the extra traffic it would add. Not that I-515/US 93 doesn't have traffic, but the truck traffic that is already running between Phoenix and Reno is already using 93, so why try to reroute them?

And I'm just going to post this again, because this thread has gone on for so long that it's probably worth posting again: Boulder City Bypass

[The Ghostbuster]

So my preference would be alternative Z. Maybe QQ could be utilized to make 215 a full beltway (fictionally, of course). BB to me seems too out of place for Interstate 11. As for the Boulder City Bypass, when that is complete, Interstate 515 should be renumbered to Interstate 11.

[coatimundi]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

[Max Rockatansky]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

Just curious, what makes US 89 a death trap?  I've always found both US 89 and US 89A both to be pretty docile and well maintained in the winter time.  The terrain largely goes through valley lows which rarely have large snow accumulation and the canyons are very mild.  Usually the truck traffic ended up taking US 89 to Page rather the older alignment on 89A, I bet a lot of them are glad it's finally reopened after that Navajo 20 debacle.  Most people I knew...myself included from Phoenix would usually take US 89 on the way to Salt Lake because it was by far the most direct route, especially if you take UT 20 over to I-15.  I've been there in pretty much every conceivable weather condition, -10 F, snowing, fog, ect....about the most hostile thing about the area is lack of services.

[roadfro]

Now for the other end of Interstate 11. Have they made a decision on the exact route Interstate 11 will take through Las Vegas? Will it utilize existing Interstate 515 (which would be my preference) or will it bypass 515 to the west or the east?

Here's a map of the proposed routes: Article (not posting the image directly because of the copyright issues)

No decision has been made, as far as I'm aware. Note that the map linked is from an article that 2-1/2 years old at this point. I-11 is pretty much confirmed to be heading in the direction of Reno at this point, so the Alternative AA is out.

Last time I researched the proposed alignments, it had been narrowed down to Alternative Y (follows I-215/CC 215 west and north to US 95), Alternative Z (follows existing I-515/US 95), and a combination of BB & QQ (eastern bypass to I-15, then backtracking to follow CC 215 west to US 95). It's been several months since I looked in on this though.

I had thought that the Eastern Beltway was completely off the table at this point. ???

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. ... The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

You have to keep in mind that development in the Las Vegas Valley first extended east from the downtown core before it went west/north/south. As they were planning the beltway in the late 1980s/early 1990s, housing developments had long since proliferated to the foothills of Sunrise & Frenchman's Mountains on the east side of the valley. The valley's housing boom in the 1990's was primarily in the south (western Henderson), west (Summerlin) and northwest, and by the late 1990s/early 2000s was beginning to move southwestward and to the north–none of this had reached mountains edges (and much land closer to foothills was still controlled by the BLM).

The result in beltway planning was that, aside from the initial portion of I-215 (between roughly I-15 and SR 146), the beltway alignment followed the path of least resistance and didn't necessitate a whole lot of eminent domain land acquisition. An eastern leg would have required land acquisition almost the entire way to I-15.

A feasibility study for an eastern beltway leg was performed sometime in the early-mid 2000s (I think by NDOT). Potential alignments would have it connect to I-515 either in Henderson or near the Charleston curve, then swing east and north towards Nellis AFB before reconnecting to I-15. At the time, it was concluded that an eastern beltway would cost over $1 billion to construct. The price tag, along with the disruption to a lot of established neighborhoods and commercial districts, essentially killed the idea. (The AA Roads

Don't get me wrong... I very much favored the idea of an eastern beltway. In the context of the CANAMEX Corridor, it would have made a whole lot of sense to shift that traffic eastward and realign US 93 out of the Spaghetti Bowl. Had that been built, it would make much more sense for an I-11 routing than a route through the Lake Mead NRA as proposed (and with the northern beltway leg, a more viable contender for the I-11 route through town towards Reno).

I-215/CR 215 probably wouldn't be the choice of locals because of the extra traffic it would add. Not that I-515/US 93 doesn't have traffic, but the truck traffic that is already running between Phoenix and Reno is already using 93, so why try to reroute them?

I would speculate that the 215 route might be better because of the extra traffic it would add. US 95 can be pretty heavily trafficked as it is, and the proposed widening of I-515 from the mid-2000s has stalled as NDOT has prioritized projects on I-15. 215 might be better suited to absorb the traffic.

And I'm just going to post this again, because this thread has gone on for so long that it's probably worth posting again: Boulder City Bypass

As for the Boulder City Bypass, when that is complete, Interstate 515 should be renumbered to Interstate 11.

This is presently under construction. There is a thread in the Pacific Southwest board for this topic, although it's been a while since anything has been posted in it.

As I noted in that thread, NDOT has some approval for the I-11 number on the Boulder City Bypass, but it really only covers I-515 from I-215 southward (and doesn't connect directly to a 2DI. Renumbering I-515 at this point seems premature until the I-11 alignment is decided.

[howlincoyote2k1]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

Just curious, what makes US 89 a death trap?  I've always found both US 89 and US 89A both to be pretty docile and well maintained in the winter time.  The terrain largely goes through valley lows which rarely have large snow accumulation and the canyons are very mild.  Usually the truck traffic ended up taking US 89 to Page rather the older alignment on 89A, I bet a lot of them are glad it's finally reopened after that Navajo 20 debacle.  Most people I knew...myself included from Phoenix would usually take US 89 on the way to Salt Lake because it was by far the most direct route, especially if you take UT 20 over to I-15.  I've been there in pretty much every conceivable weather condition, -10 F, snowing, fog, ect....about the most hostile thing about the area is lack of services.

Flagstaff is a snowstorm magnet.  Every time I check the weather when driving between Provo, UT and the Phoenix area, it always seems like Flagstaff is getting pounded hard.

89 between Kanab and just north of Flagstaff (at the bottom of that long hill) tends to not be *too* bad, as there are some stretches of <4500' elevation that don't get a ton of snow, but there are some spots that can get a little hairy (Antelope Pass, the Cockscomb, coming down the cliff north into Page) in cold weather.  All it takes is one near-invisible patch of black ice to hurl a car wheeling around a curve at 55+ MPH into oblivion.

North of Kanab....all bets are off.  Gorgeous road during summer, but during a winter snowstorm, that road can be downright frightening.  They'll plow it when they can - meaning, after they get I-15 and I-70 taken care of...and UT-20 may come even later than that, if at all.  And even if it isn't snowing, the road can still be extremely icy at night; that part of Utah gets C O L D in the wintertime.  Wreck your car or break down, and you're in deep doodoo.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

[Max Rockatansky]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

Just curious, what makes US 89 a death trap?  I've always found both US 89 and US 89A both to be pretty docile and well maintained in the winter time.  The terrain largely goes through valley lows which rarely have large snow accumulation and the canyons are very mild.  Usually the truck traffic ended up taking US 89 to Page rather the older alignment on 89A, I bet a lot of them are glad it's finally reopened after that Navajo 20 debacle.  Most people I knew...myself included from Phoenix would usually take US 89 on the way to Salt Lake because it was by far the most direct route, especially if you take UT 20 over to I-15.  I've been there in pretty much every conceivable weather condition, -10 F, snowing, fog, ect....about the most hostile thing about the area is lack of services.

Flagstaff is a snowstorm magnet.  Every time I check the weather when driving between Provo, UT and the Phoenix area, it always seems like Flagstaff is getting pounded hard.

89 between Kanab and just north of Flagstaff (at the bottom of that long hill) tends to not be *too* bad, as there are some stretches of <4500' elevation that don't get a ton of snow, but there are some spots that can get a little hairy (Antelope Pass, the Cockscomb, coming down the cliff north into Page) in cold weather.  All it takes is one near-invisible patch of black ice to hurl a car wheeling around a curve at 55+ MPH into oblivion.

North of Kanab....all bets are off.  Gorgeous road during summer, but during a winter snowstorm, that road can be downright frightening.  They'll plow it when they can - meaning, after they get I-15 and I-70 taken care of...and UT-20 may come even later than that, if at all.  And even if it isn't snowing, the road can still be extremely icy at night; that part of Utah gets C O L D in the wintertime.  Wreck your car or break down, and you're in deep doodoo.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

Yeah that terrain around the Lake Mead Recreation Area, Lower Grand Canyon and the Virgin River Gorge is pretty rough. It's actually pretty amazing to me that there was enough drive to build an Interstate through the Gorge instead of following US 91 to St. George, I don't think it would have been built in this modern environment.

I'll give you the cold is really bad in the winter and blizzards can be a problem, but is that anymore different than say US 60 from Globe to Socorro, U.S. 70 from Globe to Lordsburg, U.S. 180 from Holbrook to Deming?   Granted you get Moab and Green River with reasonable services on US 191 but I always found 89 had a couple decent stopping point or places where help could come from like Kanab and Panguitch.  I don't know, usually I was always pretty up to speed on the weather in the Rim and Plateau areas before I tried traveling out into the boons. I've had some really long snow-ins along I-10 in New Mexico and U.S. 60/AZ 260 especially.  But then again I was the crazy person carrying chains, thermal blankets and about everything you would need to tough out a day or two in a storm. 

Incidentally I know none of what I just talked about has anything to do with I-11 but I always thought it was ironic with all the talk on that Interstate with the debates over traffic/truck count justification that nobody really every brings up US 89 as an I-17 extension corridor.  Not that I think it's needed since US 89 is more than adequate but the big original selling point of I-11 was no direct Interstate connection between Phoenix and Vegas....what about Phoenix and SLC?