Interstate 11

[Sub-Urbanite]

Incidentally I know none of what I just talked about has anything to do with I-11 but I always thought it was ironic with all the talk on that Interstate with the debates over traffic/truck count justification that nobody really every brings up US 89 as an I-17 extension corridor.  Not that I think it's needed since US 89 is more than adequate but the big original selling point of I-11 was no direct Interstate connection between Phoenix and Vegas....what about Phoenix and SLC?

Because Phoenix to I-15 at Beaver is 460 miles via Flagstaff, and 520 miles via Vegas. That's 300 miles of new interstate to save 60 miles of driving on a 700-mile Phoenix-to-Salt Lake trip.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

I've posted on this before here:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=15663.0

Purely a fantasy, because there's not a half billion dollar grant about to drop on Arizona and Nevada for this any time soon. But I'm a week away from driving from St. George to Phoenix, and boy it'd be nice to be able to skip Vegas.

[Max Rockatansky]

Incidentally I know none of what I just talked about has anything to do with I-11 but I always thought it was ironic with all the talk on that Interstate with the debates over traffic/truck count justification that nobody really every brings up US 89 as an I-17 extension corridor.  Not that I think it's needed since US 89 is more than adequate but the big original selling point of I-11 was no direct Interstate connection between Phoenix and Vegas....what about Phoenix and SLC?

Because Phoenix to I-15 at Beaver is 460 miles via Flagstaff, and 520 miles via Vegas. That's 300 miles of new interstate to save 60 miles of driving on a 700-mile Phoenix-to-Salt Lake trip.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

I've posted on this before here:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=15663.0

Purely a fantasy, because there's not a half billion dollar grant about to drop on Arizona and Nevada for this any time soon. But I'm a week away from driving from St. George to Phoenix, and boy it'd be nice to be able to skip Vegas.

Yes but a straighter alignment on the Plateau with a constant 65-75 MPH is going to knock some serious time savings on the US 89 alignment vs US 93 and I-95.  The real question becomes at that point; what's the easiest route to build a divided freeway?  US 89 to Page, US 89A over the Arizona Strip or even Navajo 20s alignment?  The biggest obstructions are going to be the Vermillon Cliffs and Bryce Canyon since any hypothetical route would still need to go around them.

[Rover_0]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

Just curious, what makes US 89 a death trap?  I've always found both US 89 and US 89A both to be pretty docile and well maintained in the winter time.  The terrain largely goes through valley lows which rarely have large snow accumulation and the canyons are very mild.  Usually the truck traffic ended up taking US 89 to Page rather the older alignment on 89A, I bet a lot of them are glad it's finally reopened after that Navajo 20 debacle.  Most people I knew...myself included from Phoenix would usually take US 89 on the way to Salt Lake because it was by far the most direct route, especially if you take UT 20 over to I-15.  I've been there in pretty much every conceivable weather condition, -10 F, snowing, fog, ect....about the most hostile thing about the area is lack of services.

Flagstaff is a snowstorm magnet.  Every time I check the weather when driving between Provo, UT and the Phoenix area, it always seems like Flagstaff is getting pounded hard.

89 between Kanab and just north of Flagstaff (at the bottom of that long hill) tends to not be *too* bad, as there are some stretches of <4500' elevation that don't get a ton of snow, but there are some spots that can get a little hairy (Antelope Pass, the Cockscomb, coming down the cliff north into Page) in cold weather.  All it takes is one near-invisible patch of black ice to hurl a car wheeling around a curve at 55+ MPH into oblivion.

North of Kanab....all bets are off.  Gorgeous road during summer, but during a winter snowstorm, that road can be downright frightening.  They'll plow it when they can - meaning, after they get I-15 and I-70 taken care of...and UT-20 may come even later than that, if at all.  And even if it isn't snowing, the road can still be extremely icy at night; that part of Utah gets C O L D in the wintertime.  Wreck your car or break down, and you're in deep doodoo.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

Yeah that terrain around the Lake Mead Recreation Area, Lower Grand Canyon and the Virgin River Gorge is pretty rough. It's actually pretty amazing to me that there was enough drive to build an Interstate through the Gorge instead of following US 91 to St. George, I don't think it would have been built in this modern environment.

I'll give you the cold is really bad in the winter and blizzards can be a problem, but is that anymore different than say US 60 from Globe to Socorro, U.S. 70 from Globe to Lordsburg, U.S. 180 from Holbrook to Deming?   Granted you get Moab and Green River with reasonable services on US 191 but I always found 89 had a couple decent stopping point or places where help could come from like Kanab and Panguitch.  I don't know, usually I was always pretty up to speed on the weather in the Rim and Plateau areas before I tried traveling out into the boons. I've had some really long snow-ins along I-10 in New Mexico and U.S. 60/AZ 260 especially.  But then again I was the crazy person carrying chains, thermal blankets and about everything you would need to tough out a day or two in a storm. 

Incidentally I know none of what I just talked about has anything to do with I-11 but I always thought it was ironic with all the talk on that Interstate with the debates over traffic/truck count justification that nobody really every brings up US 89 as an I-17 extension corridor.  Not that I think it's needed since US 89 is more than adequate but the big original selling point of I-11 was no direct Interstate connection between Phoenix and Vegas....what about Phoenix and SLC?

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

The terrain outside of the Colorado River crossing, Cockscomb, and Hurricane Cliffs* is relatively flat. I can even envision a scenario where such a route could be a Franconia Notch-style parkway between Kanab and Page as an environmental compromise in that part of the region (It also begs the question as to what kind of lifespan the Glen Canyon Bridge has left and what update/replacement options may be considered).

If it were to ever go north of Kanab, the best route would parallel US-89 and UT-20, as 20 seems to be the least terrain-challenged route, but going that way I feel it most likely becomes too costly. I can at least see a road widening/expressway/freeway going from St. George east, perhaps to Colorado City or the Fredonia/Kanab area to facilitate traffic heading towards the parks (and largely why I'm such a fan of making the routes between I-15 near Hurricane and US-160 a single US Route at the very least).

*There have been some mentions of a Hurricane bypass to the south to connect UT-7 near Sand Hollow and UT-59 roughly around Apple Valley, or possibly a freeway could swing west of Hurricane and then north to end at I-15 near Toquerville (thus following - you guessed it - UT-17).

[howlincoyote2k1]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

Just curious, what makes US 89 a death trap?  I've always found both US 89 and US 89A both to be pretty docile and well maintained in the winter time.  The terrain largely goes through valley lows which rarely have large snow accumulation and the canyons are very mild.  Usually the truck traffic ended up taking US 89 to Page rather the older alignment on 89A, I bet a lot of them are glad it's finally reopened after that Navajo 20 debacle.  Most people I knew...myself included from Phoenix would usually take US 89 on the way to Salt Lake because it was by far the most direct route, especially if you take UT 20 over to I-15.  I've been there in pretty much every conceivable weather condition, -10 F, snowing, fog, ect....about the most hostile thing about the area is lack of services.

Flagstaff is a snowstorm magnet.  Every time I check the weather when driving between Provo, UT and the Phoenix area, it always seems like Flagstaff is getting pounded hard.

89 between Kanab and just north of Flagstaff (at the bottom of that long hill) tends to not be *too* bad, as there are some stretches of <4500' elevation that don't get a ton of snow, but there are some spots that can get a little hairy (Antelope Pass, the Cockscomb, coming down the cliff north into Page) in cold weather.  All it takes is one near-invisible patch of black ice to hurl a car wheeling around a curve at 55+ MPH into oblivion.

North of Kanab....all bets are off.  Gorgeous road during summer, but during a winter snowstorm, that road can be downright frightening.  They'll plow it when they can - meaning, after they get I-15 and I-70 taken care of...and UT-20 may come even later than that, if at all.  And even if it isn't snowing, the road can still be extremely icy at night; that part of Utah gets C O L D in the wintertime.  Wreck your car or break down, and you're in deep doodoo.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

Yeah that terrain around the Lake Mead Recreation Area, Lower Grand Canyon and the Virgin River Gorge is pretty rough. It's actually pretty amazing to me that there was enough drive to build an Interstate through the Gorge instead of following US 91 to St. George, I don't think it would have been built in this modern environment.

I'll give you the cold is really bad in the winter and blizzards can be a problem, but is that anymore different than say US 60 from Globe to Socorro, U.S. 70 from Globe to Lordsburg, U.S. 180 from Holbrook to Deming?   Granted you get Moab and Green River with reasonable services on US 191 but I always found 89 had a couple decent stopping point or places where help could come from like Kanab and Panguitch.  I don't know, usually I was always pretty up to speed on the weather in the Rim and Plateau areas before I tried traveling out into the boons. I've had some really long snow-ins along I-10 in New Mexico and U.S. 60/AZ 260 especially.  But then again I was the crazy person carrying chains, thermal blankets and about everything you would need to tough out a day or two in a storm. 

Incidentally I know none of what I just talked about has anything to do with I-11 but I always thought it was ironic with all the talk on that Interstate with the debates over traffic/truck count justification that nobody really every brings up US 89 as an I-17 extension corridor.  Not that I think it's needed since US 89 is more than adequate but the big original selling point of I-11 was no direct Interstate connection between Phoenix and Vegas....what about Phoenix and SLC?

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

The terrain outside of the Colorado River crossing, Cockscomb, and Hurricane Cliffs* is relatively flat. I can even envision a scenario where such a route could be a Franconia Notch-style parkway between Kanab and Page as an environmental compromise in that part of the region (It also begs the question as to what kind of lifespan the Glen Canyon Bridge has left and what update/replacement options may be considered).

If it were to ever go north of Kanab, the best route would parallel US-89 and UT-20, as 20 seems to be the least terrain-challenged route, but going that way I feel it most likely becomes too costly. I can at least see a road widening/expressway/freeway going from St. George east, perhaps to Colorado City or the Fredonia/Kanab area to facilitate traffic heading towards the parks (and largely why I'm such a fan of making the routes between I-15 near Hurricane and US-160 a single US Route at the very least).

*There have been some mentions of a Hurricane bypass to the south to connect UT-7 near Sand Hollow and UT-59 roughly around Apple Valley, or possibly a freeway could swing west of Hurricane and then north to end at I-15 near Toquerville (thus following - you guessed it - UT-17).

I've never been a fan of the St. George routing for a potential I-17 northward extension; it's just too many miles of near due east/west on a road to ostensibly connect two cities that are almost exactly due north/south from each other.  I'd just send it up 89 to connect with I-70 at Sevier, then break off north of Richfield to merge with I-15 at Scipio.  Yeah, I get that it'll be pretty redundant with I-15, but any other routing just adds unnecessary miles and isn't very well streamlined.

[Max Rockatansky]

Z makes the most sense.
I was surprised when they essentially gave up on the Eastern Beltway. I mean, back in the day, well before the housing explosion in Vegas, when they were first planning out the beltway, they had their chance. I remember what the terrain looked like, and it would have been easy to plow something through there. Now they're just screwed on that, and I think that's unfortunate because there's not really an alternative route for commercial traffic going from most of Arizona north into Utah. 89 is a deathtrap, especially in the winter, and 191 is too far out of the way for a Phoenix to SLC run. The existing I-215 and CR 215 mostly seem to serve as secondary feeder freeways, connecting the outlying suburbs with I-15. To me, from the angles alone, the Eastern Beltway was the only one that made sense.

Oh, and I found the article where that map appeared: A way through the valley: Public mulls Interstate 11 routes

And here's one that has a map and talks about the alternatives through the rest of the state: Western Nevada routes favored for massive Interstate 11 project

And a project site

If you use that last link to get to the previous EIS comments, some are pretty funny. Most seem to use the word "boondoggle," but I think a lot of public works projects get that label these days.

Just curious, what makes US 89 a death trap?  I've always found both US 89 and US 89A both to be pretty docile and well maintained in the winter time.  The terrain largely goes through valley lows which rarely have large snow accumulation and the canyons are very mild.  Usually the truck traffic ended up taking US 89 to Page rather the older alignment on 89A, I bet a lot of them are glad it's finally reopened after that Navajo 20 debacle.  Most people I knew...myself included from Phoenix would usually take US 89 on the way to Salt Lake because it was by far the most direct route, especially if you take UT 20 over to I-15.  I've been there in pretty much every conceivable weather condition, -10 F, snowing, fog, ect....about the most hostile thing about the area is lack of services.

Flagstaff is a snowstorm magnet.  Every time I check the weather when driving between Provo, UT and the Phoenix area, it always seems like Flagstaff is getting pounded hard.

89 between Kanab and just north of Flagstaff (at the bottom of that long hill) tends to not be *too* bad, as there are some stretches of <4500' elevation that don't get a ton of snow, but there are some spots that can get a little hairy (Antelope Pass, the Cockscomb, coming down the cliff north into Page) in cold weather.  All it takes is one near-invisible patch of black ice to hurl a car wheeling around a curve at 55+ MPH into oblivion.

North of Kanab....all bets are off.  Gorgeous road during summer, but during a winter snowstorm, that road can be downright frightening.  They'll plow it when they can - meaning, after they get I-15 and I-70 taken care of...and UT-20 may come even later than that, if at all.  And even if it isn't snowing, the road can still be extremely icy at night; that part of Utah gets C O L D in the wintertime.  Wreck your car or break down, and you're in deep doodoo.

I do wish there was some kind of Vegas bypass for traffic taking 93 from Arizona to Nevada, looking to grab I-15 into Utah.  Maybe improve the Dolan Springs road, build a bridge over a narrow part of Lake Mead (I'm not super familiar if the terrain in that area is too rugged though), and run it up to Mesquite or something?  US 193.

Yeah that terrain around the Lake Mead Recreation Area, Lower Grand Canyon and the Virgin River Gorge is pretty rough. It's actually pretty amazing to me that there was enough drive to build an Interstate through the Gorge instead of following US 91 to St. George, I don't think it would have been built in this modern environment.

I'll give you the cold is really bad in the winter and blizzards can be a problem, but is that anymore different than say US 60 from Globe to Socorro, U.S. 70 from Globe to Lordsburg, U.S. 180 from Holbrook to Deming?   Granted you get Moab and Green River with reasonable services on US 191 but I always found 89 had a couple decent stopping point or places where help could come from like Kanab and Panguitch.  I don't know, usually I was always pretty up to speed on the weather in the Rim and Plateau areas before I tried traveling out into the boons. I've had some really long snow-ins along I-10 in New Mexico and U.S. 60/AZ 260 especially.  But then again I was the crazy person carrying chains, thermal blankets and about everything you would need to tough out a day or two in a storm. 

Incidentally I know none of what I just talked about has anything to do with I-11 but I always thought it was ironic with all the talk on that Interstate with the debates over traffic/truck count justification that nobody really every brings up US 89 as an I-17 extension corridor.  Not that I think it's needed since US 89 is more than adequate but the big original selling point of I-11 was no direct Interstate connection between Phoenix and Vegas....what about Phoenix and SLC?

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

The terrain outside of the Colorado River crossing, Cockscomb, and Hurricane Cliffs* is relatively flat. I can even envision a scenario where such a route could be a Franconia Notch-style parkway between Kanab and Page as an environmental compromise in that part of the region (It also begs the question as to what kind of lifespan the Glen Canyon Bridge has left and what update/replacement options may be considered).

If it were to ever go north of Kanab, the best route would parallel US-89 and UT-20, as 20 seems to be the least terrain-challenged route, but going that way I feel it most likely becomes too costly. I can at least see a road widening/expressway/freeway going from St. George east, perhaps to Colorado City or the Fredonia/Kanab area to facilitate traffic heading towards the parks (and largely why I'm such a fan of making the routes between I-15 near Hurricane and US-160 a single US Route at the very least).

*There have been some mentions of a Hurricane bypass to the south to connect UT-7 near Sand Hollow and UT-59 roughly around Apple Valley, or possibly a freeway could swing west of Hurricane and then north to end at I-15 near Toquerville (thus following - you guessed it - UT-17).

Or once UT 7 is finished how about US 389?  Basically that route could either follow UT 7 from I-15 to UT 9 or just start at UT 9 and I-15.  US 389 could then follow UT 9, UT 59, AZ 389 and even US 89A all the way to US 89 in Bitter Springs AZ.  I figure the section of US 89A from Fredonia to Kanab could remain as such since it's traveling over a state line.  I figure with all the growth in St. George it would be really difficult for the AASHTO to reject this and would open the corridor to more consideration if there ever became a northward justification for I-17. 

Really I can't see I-17 all the way to I-70, if it was going to be routed that way it would have head over UT 20 to I-15 to get some viability out of that alignment in regards to saving time from Phoenix.

[Sub-Urbanite]

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

Let's just be straight: There's no cost-effective way to build this. ADOT spends $140,000 per road-mile on maintenance. Figure for an Interstate and we'll generously estimate that's $160,000. That's still $20 million a year in maintenance alone for a Flagstaff to Page segment. And while those costs may not be incurred immediately, they will be incurred.

Based on the $2 million-ish a mile ADOT's paying for US 93 widening, just the twinning alone would be in the $250 million range. That doesn't get you one interchange built, just extra pavement. Expect another $300 million to cross the Colorado.

Do you think ADOT wants to add that to its budget? To help trucks shave 8% off a drive from Phoenix to Salt Lake? At a time when gas tax revenues are plunging and federal support is only as strong as Congress' commitment to use general fund money to support transportation?

This part of the conversation belongs in fictional highways.

[Max Rockatansky]

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

Let's just be straight: There's no cost-effective way to build this. ADOT spends $140,000 per road-mile on maintenance. Figure for an Interstate and we'll generously estimate that's $160,000. That's still $20 million a year in maintenance alone for a Flagstaff to Page segment. And while those costs may not be incurred immediately, they will be incurred.

Based on the $2 million-ish a mile ADOT's paying for US 93 widening, just the twinning alone would be in the $250 million range. That doesn't get you one interchange built, just extra pavement. Expect another $300 million to cross the Colorado.

Do you think ADOT wants to add that to its budget? To help trucks shave 8% off a drive from Phoenix to Salt Lake? At a time when gas tax revenues are plunging and federal support is only as strong as Congress' commitment to use general fund money to support transportation?

This part of the conversation belongs in fictional highways.

Who would if they had a rational understanding of highway budgets?  It's basically just the tangent that the conversation went down towards when I started talking about it, you're right it would make a good fictional highway topic.  That whole US 389 that I suggested in response is something I'm actually probably going to put in that Extend US Routes thread.  Ironically what put us on this track was the whole wriggarmoral was the possibly variations of I-11 within the Phoenix area.  Specifically the proposals to put I-11 out in the empty swath of land west of the White Tanks and all the talk about a possible I-8 connection via annexation range of the city of Goodyear.  As it stands it seems like the alignment of I-11 in and around Phoenix seems more a flight of fantasy or fiction because it seems to be completely based in expectations of civic growth based in the pre-housing crisis era.  Don't forget it wasn't too long ago that people were saying the same exact thing about I-11 just in general.  It wasn't really until 2001 when people started to take even an expansion of the corridor seriously after the 9/11 attacks. 

Incidentally since we're on the topic of I-11 and kinda sorta on fantasy/fiction.  Anyone think there is a prospect ever of a I-211 through US 95, NV 163 and AZ 68?  Seems like Bullhead, Laughlin and even to an extent Golden Valley are going through a population boom.  Of course this would be obviously a 20-30 year down the line thing...assuming trends in population continue like they are now.

[coatimundi]

Even if they extended 17 north, the truckers wouldn't use it to get to SLC. The existing 17 has such extreme grade changes - out of Anthem, into the Verde Valley and back up the Rim - but you have to consider the grade changes on 89. Flagstaff is at 7000', Sunset Crater is at 8000', Cameron is below 5000', you get into the 5000' range south of Page, and Page is at 4000'. And that's just Arizona. And a lot of them aren't gradual. I don't recall the exact grade that's signed on 89 on the east side of the national forest between the two monument turn offs, but it was at least 8%.
On US 93, you go from about 1000' up to 3000' through Nothing and Kingman, but it's mostly gradual and doesn't have any real changes in between.
Then there's the rock slide a few years ago that closed the road for, I think, two years. That would certainly be a concern for the public even if irrelevant, which I think it mostly is.
89A is worse for elevation, but that would be the easier terrain to build on nonetheless. Because it skirts so much national forest, monument and park land though, there's no way it would happen. The Strip is too important for tourism.

The "death trap" comment was more about the accidents on that road, particularly north of Cameron. You get regular highway traffic coupled with tourists in the summer and then throw in lots of 2-lane stretches, it gets really, really dangerous. 89 north of Flagstaff used to be considered the most dangerous stretch of highway in the state until they widened it in the late 90's.

I've only hit minor snow on I-10, but I know it exists. However, it's inconsistent. 89 gets snowed in at least once per year.

[kkt]

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

Let's just be straight: There's no cost-effective way to build this. ADOT spends $140,000 per road-mile on maintenance. Figure for an Interstate and we'll generously estimate that's $160,000. That's still $20 million a year in maintenance alone for a Flagstaff to Page segment. And while those costs may not be incurred immediately, they will be incurred.

Based on the $2 million-ish a mile ADOT's paying for US 93 widening, just the twinning alone would be in the $250 million range. That doesn't get you one interchange built, just extra pavement. Expect another $300 million to cross the Colorado.

Do you think ADOT wants to add that to its budget? To help trucks shave 8% off a drive from Phoenix to Salt Lake? At a time when gas tax revenues are plunging and federal support is only as strong as Congress' commitment to use general fund money to support transportation?

This part of the conversation belongs in fictional highways.

[Rover_0]

As someone who grew up in Kanab and has mulled over this for a long time...IMO the most cost-effective proposal for an I-17 extension from Flagstaff to St. George would be north on US-89 to around Page then west, roughly along US-89/US-89A/AZ-389/UT-59/UT-9 to I-15 near St. George. I know ADOT discussed 4-laning US-89 to around Tuba City (no, 4-lanes=/=Interstate, but it's also not far-fetched when compared to a 2-lane road), and such a route could tie into the Southern Parkway (UT-7 or the part of UT-9 planned to be built to expressway standards) rather seamlessly.* It's a stretch, especially given Antelope Pass, but I don't think it's all that far-fetched at all that I-17 may reach Page someday (as it seems another lane and the requisite width at Antelope Pass could be built fairly easy, or N-20's terrain is a lot easier (though there's the ROW to deal with there).

Let's just be straight: There's no cost-effective way to build this. ADOT spends $140,000 per road-mile on maintenance. Figure for an Interstate and we'll generously estimate that's $160,000. That's still $20 million a year in maintenance alone for a Flagstaff to Page segment. And while those costs may not be incurred immediately, they will be incurred.

Based on the $2 million-ish a mile ADOT's paying for US 93 widening, just the twinning alone would be in the $250 million range. That doesn't get you one interchange built, just extra pavement. Expect another $300 million to cross the Colorado.

Do you think ADOT wants to add that to its budget? To help trucks shave 8% off a drive from Phoenix to Salt Lake? At a time when gas tax revenues are plunging and federal support is only as strong as Congress' commitment to use general fund money to support transportation?

This part of the conversation belongs in fictional highways.

OK. It's a thought (and one that's not meant to be serious/imminent) that's crossed my mind a time or two.

Or once UT 7 is finished how about US 389?  Basically that route could either follow UT 7 from I-15 to UT 9 or just start at UT 9 and I-15.  US 389 could then follow UT 9, UT 59, AZ 389 and even US 89A all the way to US 89 in Bitter Springs AZ.  I figure the section of US 89A from Fredonia to Kanab could remain as such since it's traveling over a state line.  I figure with all the growth in St. George it would be really difficult for the AASHTO to reject this and would open the corridor to more consideration if there ever became a northward justification for I-17. 

Really I can't see I-17 all the way to I-70, if it was going to be routed that way it would have head over UT 20 to I-15 to get some viability out of that alignment in regards to saving time from Phoenix.

I'd go with US-x89 (likely US-489), though...but this is something more fit for the Fictional thread.

[roadfro]

Incidentally since we're on the topic of I-11 and kinda sorta on fantasy/fiction.  Anyone think there is a prospect ever of a I-211 through US 95, NV 163 and AZ 68?  Seems like Bullhead, Laughlin and even to an extent Golden Valley are going through a population boom.  Of course this would be obviously a 20-30 year down the line thing...assuming trends in population continue like they are now.

I haven't really investigated the traffic counts along US 95/NV 163 since the Hoover Dam Bypass opened. That whole route is 4 lane divided, except through Searchlight. But that 4-laning of US 95 was instigated by, or at least accelerated by, its use as the US 93 truck detour after 9/11 (SR 163 was already 4 lanes). So I would be curious to know what traffic counts look like since the detour was lifted. But my initial hunch would be that the 4 lane is more than enough.

Then again, I thought an Interstate route connecting Vegas and Reno would be a pipe dream, and it's seriously under consideration now...

[mcarling]

One of the more interesting things I've read lately about I-11 is that California is in favor due to a perceived opportunity to offload traffic from I-5.  I'm not sure which section of I-11 or I-5 that referred to, since it makes more sense farther north, especially if I-11 will go through Susanville, Klamath Falls, Bend, and Redmond, to Yakima.  Otherwise, it's difficult to see how there would be much effect on I-5.

[kdk]

Incidentally since we're on the topic of I-11 and kinda sorta on fantasy/fiction.  Anyone think there is a prospect ever of a I-211 through US 95, NV 163 and AZ 68?  Seems like Bullhead, Laughlin and even to an extent Golden Valley are going through a population boom.  Of course this would be obviously a 20-30 year down the line thing...assuming trends in population continue like they are now.

I haven't really investigated the traffic counts along US 95/NV 163 since the Hoover Dam Bypass opened. That whole route is 4 lane divided, except through Searchlight. But that 4-laning of US 95 was instigated by, or at least accelerated by, its use as the US 93 truck detour after 9/11 (SR 163 was already 4 lanes). So I would be curious to know what traffic counts look like since the detour was lifted. But my initial hunch would be that the 4 lane is more than enough.

Then again, I thought an Interstate route connecting Vegas and Reno would be a pipe dream, and it's seriously under consideration now...

I drive that route a few times per year.  To me it's fine as it is even with the growing populations of the Bullhead area. If anything once I-11 is open it may actually decrease the amount of traffic on this route even more. Only suggestion would be a bypass around Searchlight, but I recall the speed limit on the 4 lane sections being already 75 and traffic speeds being faster than most interstates.  Once it reaches Bullhead it would have to swing south of Laughlin and could take the planned bridge south of town and link into Bullhead Parkway, then back to AZ 68.  Would add about 15 miles to the route than the current way, but I don't see how you could build an interstate bridge near or at the current Laughlin bridge with the terrain as it is and the casinos in the way.  interesting thought.

[andy3175]

Incidentally since we're on the topic of I-11 and kinda sorta on fantasy/fiction.  Anyone think there is a prospect ever of a I-211 through US 95, NV 163 and AZ 68?  Seems like Bullhead, Laughlin and even to an extent Golden Valley are going through a population boom.  Of course this would be obviously a 20-30 year down the line thing...assuming trends in population continue like they are now.

Going a bit off topic and leaning toward fictional territory somewhat: US 95 is now a good quality, four-lane divided highway between Cal-Nev-Ari and Boulder City, with the exception of the undivided stretch through Searchlight, as Roadfro mentioned. Traffic narrows significantly leading into California, where US 95 suddenly has an undulating, two-lane roadway after dozens of miles as an expressway. I have seen lots of cars on that road, as well as the Needles Highway leading south out of Laughlin toward Needles. On that road, a nice four-lane highway becomes a not so nice two-lane highway upon crossing the border. I would love to see US 95 improved to full expressway standards on the California side of the state line (along with Needles Highway) to help facilitate traffic flow from the growing population centers in Nevada and Arizona down to I-40 near Needles. As to whether this could ever be an Interstate, I'd say yes it is conceivable in coming decades given how much of the route is already four lanes. But we're talking a long way off (probably this would be a 2di such as I-13?) ... but the growth in Bullhead City and Laughlin is unlikely to abate any time soon, which warrants the extra capacity leading to Las Vegas and I-40. Needles is not growing at the same rate, so it will be interesting to see how it changes in the coming years.

[Max Rockatansky]

Incidentally since we're on the topic of I-11 and kinda sorta on fantasy/fiction.  Anyone think there is a prospect ever of a I-211 through US 95, NV 163 and AZ 68?  Seems like Bullhead, Laughlin and even to an extent Golden Valley are going through a population boom.  Of course this would be obviously a 20-30 year down the line thing...assuming trends in population continue like they are now.

Going a bit off topic and leaning toward fictional territory somewhat: US 95 is now a good quality, four-lane divided highway between Cal-Nev-Ari and Boulder City, with the exception of the undivided stretch through Searchlight, as Roadfro mentioned. Traffic narrows significantly leading into California, where US 95 suddenly has an undulating, two-lane roadway after dozens of miles as an expressway. I have seen lots of cars on that road, as well as the Needles Highway leading south out of Laughlin toward Needles. On that road, a nice four-lane highway becomes a not so nice two-lane highway upon crossing the border. I would love to see US 95 improved to full expressway standards on the California side of the state line (along with Needles Highway) to help facilitate traffic flow from the growing population centers in Nevada and Arizona down to I-40 near Needles. As to whether this could ever be an Interstate, I'd say yes it is conceivable in coming decades given how much of the route is already four lanes. But we're talking a long way off (probably this would be a 2di such as I-13?) ... but the growth in Bullhead City and Laughlin is unlikely to abate any time soon, which warrants the extra capacity leading to Las Vegas and I-40. Needles is not growing at the same rate, so it will be interesting to see how it changes in the coming years.

Needles actually had it's first population increase, albeit slightly in decades according to the 2014 census.  I suspect that more to do with Bullhead City growing southward more than Needles actually recovering.  Apparently the town is still under almost 30% a proverty rate and lost some fairly major employment like Basha's.  Even the price gouging gas stations on J Street went under in the last couple years, I guess people finally figured out there was alternatives to $5 dollar regular unleaded gas.  Basically everything east of Barstow (which includes Needles) is in a state of arrested decay and neither Caltrans nor San Bernardino County really have much interest in fixing the situation.  That four lane expansion of US 95 from I-40 to the Nevada state line should have come years ago.  The Needles Highway is a brutal and beat up two lane road that only begins to level out with good maintenance on the Nevada side.  Basically it's bad enough that Bullhead and Laughlin seem like a little slice of heaven compared to Needles. 

Ironically there was this whole big deal about Needles trying to petition congress a couple years back to have the state lines changed so they would be in Clark County Nevada.  Obviously that kind of stuff never goes anywhere but it got somewhat close with a similar situation with Wendover, UT getting a petition to be annexed into Nevada through the House of Representatives at the very least.  The great irony of this all this that there is growth in the area that justifies expansion in around Needles.  It's just funny since for a long time building roads and freeways was about the only thing that motivated growth in California.  I-13 might be a little over justified of a number but a triple digit of I-11 is possible one day maybe.

[mcarling]

Needles actually had it's first population increase, albeit slightly in decades according to the 2014 census.  I suspect that more to do with Bullhead City growing southward more than Needles actually recovering.  Apparently the town is still under almost 30% a proverty rate and lost some fairly major employment like Basha's.  Even the price gouging gas stations on J Street went under in the last couple years, I guess people finally figured out there was alternatives to $5 dollar regular unleaded gas.

Other than the Needles Supercharger which is free to Tesla owners, what is the alternative to $5 gas in Needles?  Driving to across the border into AZ?

Basically everything east of Barstow (which includes Needles) is in a state of arrested decay and neither Caltrans nor San Bernardino County really have much interest in fixing the situation.  That four lane expansion of US 95 from I-40 to the Nevada state line should have come years ago.  The Needles Highway is a brutal and beat up two lane road that only begins to level out with good maintenance on the Nevada side.  Basically it's bad enough that Bullhead and Laughlin seem like a little slice of heaven compared to Needles.

Is the AADT of US 95 between I-40 and the CA/NV border really high enough to justify four lanes?

[Henry]

The last thing they need is I-13 going through Vegas, so I like that I-11 is being planned through there instead. And I could see I-11 extend all the way to Reno someday, even if it's not actually in my lifetime. To me, I-13 would be like US 666: an unlucky route number on a deadly stretch of highway.

[Buffaboy]

I am sure this has already been asked, but is it possible I-11 follows I-580 to Carson City?

[kkt]

I am sure this has already been asked, but is it possible I-11 follows I-580 to Carson City?

Anything's possible given enough money and political will.  But it would be a silly way to go.  Check the terrain.  Trying to make a beeline from Las Vegas to Carson City would go over several mountain ranges.  That's expensive to construct, costs fuel and time in operation, and would be prone to closure during winter storms.  Also it would be hard to avoid it taking US 395 partially through California, so it would require California's cooperation.  If a freeway connection from Las Vegas to Reno or Carson City is needed (which is questionable), US 95 at least as far as Fallon would be the way to do it.

[Buffaboy]

I am sure this has already been asked, but is it possible I-11 follows I-580 to Carson City?

Anything's possible given enough money and political will.  But it would be a silly way to go.  Check the terrain.  Trying to make a beeline from Las Vegas to Carson City would go over several mountain ranges.  That's expensive to construct, costs fuel and time in operation, and would be prone to closure during winter storms.  Also it would be hard to avoid it taking US 395 partially through California, so it would require California's cooperation.  If a freeway connection from Las Vegas to Reno or Carson City is needed (which is questionable), US 95 at least as far as Fallon would be the way to do it.

You're right. The terrain option on Google Maps shows a stark difference between the two routes.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2131091,-119.4690971,9.42z/data=!5m1!1e4

[Max Rockatansky]

Needles actually had it's first population increase, albeit slightly in decades according to the 2014 census.  I suspect that more to do with Bullhead City growing southward more than Needles actually recovering.  Apparently the town is still under almost 30% a proverty rate and lost some fairly major employment like Basha's.  Even the price gouging gas stations on J Street went under in the last couple years, I guess people finally figured out there was alternatives to $5 dollar regular unleaded gas.

Other than the Needles Supercharger which is free to Tesla owners, what is the alternative to $5 gas in Needles?  Driving to across the border into AZ?

Basically everything east of Barstow (which includes Needles) is in a state of arrested decay and neither Caltrans nor San Bernardino County really have much interest in fixing the situation.  That four lane expansion of US 95 from I-40 to the Nevada state line should have come years ago.  The Needles Highway is a brutal and beat up two lane road that only begins to level out with good maintenance on the Nevada side.  Basically it's bad enough that Bullhead and Laughlin seem like a little slice of heaven compared to Needles.

Is the AADT of US 95 between I-40 and the CA/NV border really high enough to justify four lanes?

The Chevron on Broadway was about $3.30 for 91 octane back on the 7th of February.  That's the same block that used to have the Basha's on it.  Literally that was the only remaining open gas station that I saw in town save for the two name brand stations that blew by on I-40 the next day.  Fenner and Amboy still were about $5 for all grades of gas...I was surprised to see more than 87 octane at Amboy.  Ludlow was about $3.80 for 87 octane and it leveled out to Barstow prices by Newberry Springs.

And that's a negative on US 95 north of I-40 "needing" four lanes.  Couple of us got to talking about a three digit spur route of I-11 decades down the line.  It does seem kind of silly that basically it's four lanes all the way to the state line in Nevada but California won't step up for such a small section to I-40...not necessary though.

I am sure this has already been asked, but is it possible I-11 follows I-580 to Carson City?

Anything's possible given enough money and political will.  But it would be a silly way to go.  Check the terrain.  Trying to make a beeline from Las Vegas to Carson City would go over several mountain ranges.  That's expensive to construct, costs fuel and time in operation, and would be prone to closure during winter storms.  Also it would be hard to avoid it taking US 395 partially through California, so it would require California's cooperation.  If a freeway connection from Las Vegas to Reno or Carson City is needed (which is questionable), US 95 at least as far as Fallon would be the way to do it.

What about direct lining I-11 along part of the alignment of US 95A northwest bypassing Yerington and following the Carson River?  The terrain isn't too difficult through the valleys and low mountains in that particular area and would take a lot of distance out of a route connecting to I-580 in Carson City.

The last thing they need is I-13 going through Vegas, so I like that I-11 is being planned through there instead. And I could see I-11 extend all the way to Reno someday, even if it's not actually in my lifetime. To me, I-13 would be like US 666: an unlucky route number on a deadly stretch of highway.

As opposed to the current US 13?  There wasn't anything really unlucky with US 666 other than extremely remote reservation terrain, difficult driving on the Coronado Trail and copious amounts of sign theft.

[andy3175]

And that's a negative on US 95 north of I-40 "needing" four lanes.  Couple of us got to talking about a three digit spur route of I-11 decades down the line.  It does seem kind of silly that basically it's four lanes all the way to the state line in Nevada but California won't step up for such a small section to I-40...not necessary though.

I've driven US 95 between the CA-NV state line and I-40 at least a dozen times. The major issues I have are consistent traffic, limited sight lines due to undulating terrain (and a road that stays close to the terrain rather than being carved out of the landscape), and enough trucks to make a slow go of things. I believe a four-lane with good sightlines would vastly improve traffic flow, and a grade separation at the railroad near the old US 66 alignment would also be helpful. One time, about two years ago, I recall sitting in a line of about 35 vehicles waiting for the railroad crossing the clear. But that day was abnormally thick with traffic (I think it was a Sunday afternoon, which is always busy with people leaving the desert to head back to Southern California). I don't necessary need an Interstate highway now/today, but the four-lane connection from the end of the four-lane at the state line south to I-40 would be very beneficial and would provide a more complete corridor. You won't hear me endorse four lanes on US 95 from I-40 south to I-10, however. That road is fine as it is, pending growth along the Colorado River that is sure to extend someday south from Bullhead City toward Lake Havasu.

[Max Rockatansky]

And that's a negative on US 95 north of I-40 "needing" four lanes.  Couple of us got to talking about a three digit spur route of I-11 decades down the line.  It does seem kind of silly that basically it's four lanes all the way to the state line in Nevada but California won't step up for such a small section to I-40...not necessary though.

I've driven US 95 between the CA-NV state line and I-40 at least a dozen times. The major issues I have are consistent traffic, limited sight lines due to undulating terrain (and a road that stays close to the terrain rather than being carved out of the landscape), and enough trucks to make a slow go of things. I believe a four-lane with good sightlines would vastly improve traffic flow, and a grade separation at the railroad near the old US 66 alignment would also be helpful. One time, about two years ago, I recall sitting in a line of about 35 vehicles waiting for the railroad crossing the clear. But that day was abnormally thick with traffic (I think it was a Sunday afternoon, which is always busy with people leaving the desert to head back to Southern California). I don't necessary need an Interstate highway now/today, but the four-lane connection from the end of the four-lane at the state line south to I-40 would be very beneficial and would provide a more complete corridor. You won't hear me endorse four lanes on US 95 from I-40 south to I-10, however. That road is fine as it is, pending growth along the Colorado River that is sure to extend someday south from Bullhead City toward Lake Havasu.

The flip side traffic from Friday afternoon all the way through the week on CA 177, CA 62 and the entirety of US 95 north from Vidal Junction can get brutal with the casino rush that always happens.  Since it's all suburban drivers pouring off I-10 they tend to drive way over the speed limit and make aggressive passes.  At the very least some passing lanes on US 95 from CA 62 and I-40 would be really welcome.

Actually the growth is already starting to fill in on the Arizona side between Havazu and I-40.  There is all sorts of little developments popping up all the way along AZ 95.  I don't see that happening on the California side due to the Needles brand neglect that seems to be the norm in San Bernandino County.  I actually had a couple posts in the fictional thread about upgrading NV 163 and AZ 95 to a three digit US Route with all the growth out there.

[andy3175]

Actually the growth is already starting to fill in on the Arizona side between Havazu and I-40.  There is all sorts of little developments popping up all the way along AZ 95.  I don't see that happening on the California side due to the Needles brand neglect that seems to be the norm in San Bernandino County.  I actually had a couple posts in the fictional thread about upgrading NV 163 and AZ 95 to a three digit US Route with all the growth out there.

I need to get back onto AZ 95 between Parker and I-40. Last time I was on there was in 2005 ... and it was in the midst of a building boom. Even with the recession, I'm sure new development has continued in that area. Thanks for the update on development along that route.

[andy3175]

Open houses underway this month in the Phoenix and Tucson area for potential alignments for Interstate 11 as part of the EIR process for the southernmost section (from Tucson to Wickenburg): see http://i11study.com/Arizona/

Wednesday, June 15
City of Buckeye Community Center - Multipurpose Room
201 East Centre Ave.
Buckeye, AZ

Tuesday, June 21
Nogales High School Cafeteria
1905 N. Apache Boulevard
Nogales, AZ

Wednesday, June 22
Arizona Riverpark Inn
777 W. Cushing St.
Tucson, AZ

Thursday, June 23
Marana Middle School Gymnasium
11285 W. Grier Rd.
Marana, AZ

Wednesday, June 29
Wickenburg Community Center
160 N Valentine St.
Wickenburg, AZ

And a news article mentions something I've not heard previously, about double decking a portion of Interstate 10 ...

http://tucson.com/news/local/arizona-gives-public-first-glimpse-of-proposed-interstate-routes/article_323f367e-259b-5989-acec-ee7f0daa993d.html

Northbound imports could avoid city traffic and connect from I-19 to the Port of Tucson or move to markets on the East Coast via I-10.

Opponents have said widening I-10 and double-decking parts in Pima County would serve the same purpose without additional infrastructure in the desert.

John Moffatt, Pima County's director of strategic planning, said all ideas will be evaluated.

"It's still on the table,"  he said of double-decking parts of I-10. He said the county continues to collect feedback from residents potentially affected by the new interstate and to work with tribal and state land officials to propose a route with minimum impact.

In general, the article suggests the alignment for Interstate 11 could be on existing or new rights of way:

(T)he final corridor could be one entirely new route or several new routes, connected to improved existing routes.

The maps unveiled Wednesday show alternatives for the interstate run west of Interstate 10 from Wickenburg south to Casa Grande. There, the southern options are east or west of I-10, connecting to Arizona 189 in Nogales with access to the international port.

An earlier proposal by Pima County had I-11 connecting to the existing Interstate 19 for southbound travel.

The Arizona Department of Transportation said no specific alignments are under consideration at this early stage.

The study area for the proposed route is about 280 miles long and between 5 and 25 miles wide.