MUTCD gripes

[The High Plains Traveler]

If all the freeways were color-coded blue (with interstates remaining blue/red) we could add value for navigation effectiveness.

I've always thought it would be good to color code all non-interstate freeway route markers with red over blue like an interstate sign- whether a US or state shield I think it could be done- Minnesota might be a problem.

Not to mention South Dakota, or California, or South Carolina. Or Vermont! Really, I think a standard FREEWAY ENTRANCE sign does the job without reverting to a three-color guide sign scheme like Europe. Besides, there are many highways that have alternating freeway/expressway segments, with city bypasses that have interchanges, and at-grade intersections with rural roads in between.

[vtk]

I dunno about this particular example. "STOP" or at least "YIELD" at the end of any driveway is pretty well implied even if it isn't explicitly posted, and it is perfectly expected behavior.

When it's a significant enough driveway (such as a divided, multilane mall entrance road) then it may not be so obvious that one has to yield to a crossroad (the public street) and some traffic control (stop sign or even a traffic light) is certainly called for.

[codyg1985]

If all the freeways were color-coded blue (with interstates remaining blue/red) we could add value for navigation effectiveness.

I've always thought it would be good to color code all non-interstate freeway route markers with red over blue like an interstate sign- whether a US or state shield I think it could be done- Minnesota might be a problem.

Not to mention South Dakota, or California, or South Carolina. Or Vermont! Really, I think a standard FREEWAY ENTRANCE sign does the job without reverting to a three-color guide sign scheme like Europe. Besides, there are many highways that have alternating freeway/expressway segments, with city bypasses that have interchanges, and at-grade intersections with rural roads in between.

Or Alabama with their blue APD US and state route signs.

[agentsteel53]

Really, I think a standard FREEWAY ENTRANCE sign does the job without reverting to a three-color guide sign scheme like Europe.

I do not believe that is sufficient.  I would like to know, before I take the exit, whether or not something is a freeway or a surface street.

[J N Winkler]

I do not believe that ["FREEWAY ENTRANCE" sign] is sufficient.  I would like to know, before I take the exit, whether or not something is a freeway or a surface street.

You don't get that in Europe anyway--there are plenty of freeways (per AASHTO definition) which are not motorways and so do not have motorway signing.

[Duke87]

Much in the same way that there are freeways which are not interstates and do not have interstate shields.


The issue is that in both cases, what gets what type of sign is decided by politicians, not engineers. If things were done logically, all freeways above a given quality would have an equally high level of classification. But, it's politics, so what gets what designation depends instead on who pays for it, how they pay for it, whether they consider it worth their while to bother applying for interstate designation, and whether FHWA feels like granting it. So we have a mishmosh where on the one hand we have freeways that are gorgeous but only classified as state highways, and on the other hand we have I-278.

[billpa]

Not to mention South Dakota, or California, or South Carolina. Or Vermont! Really, I think a standard FREEWAY ENTRANCE sign does the job without reverting to a three-color guide sign scheme like Europe. Besides, there are many highways that have alternating freeway/expressway segments, with city bypasses that have interchanges, and at-grade intersections with rural roads in between.

Well, SD doesn't have any state route freeways that I'm aware of but all the state's you mentioned could have a version of their state highway signage with red over blue.  California and Vermont are green so blue with red would certainly stand out.  South Carolina doesn't have red so that would be different as well.  I know there's no way this idea of mine would ever happen- I just don't get why we don't use 'something' to let motorists know that route X is a freeway as opposed to a surface street or highway.

[roadfro]

Much in the same way that there are freeways which are not interstates and do not have interstate shields.

The issue is that in both cases, what gets what type of sign is decided by politicians, not engineers. If things were done logically, all freeways above a given quality would have an equally high level of classification. But, it's politics, so what gets what designation depends instead on who pays for it, how they pay for it, whether they consider it worth their while to bother applying for interstate designation, and whether FHWA feels like granting it. So we have a mishmosh where on the one hand we have freeways that are gorgeous but only classified as state highways, and on the other hand we have I-278.

This situation confuses the difference between signed routes schemes and internal highway classifications... They are not the same.

[SSOWorld]

Does the MUTCD explicitly prohibit nonuniform scaling of the standard alphabets? If not, it should.  There's a reason the font exists in a variety of widths, after all.

You mean stretching? Yes, it does prohibit the use of any font besides the approved font. Font includes typeface, proportions, and sizes.

Then how does it allow ClearView[/yes - I also went there]

The yellow "TOLL" banner on route trailblazer assemblies.  It goes to show how much people HATE toll roads and want them abolished.  Granted I'm not a fan of them, but where are we going to get funding now that states are cutting budgets of publicly funded roadways?  It just pushes them to side roads which most DOTs don't like to begin with.  (Welcome to America - home of the double standard)

The same with the dictation of what street blade signs should look like.  Why should they be all uniform?  Pretty boring.

[vdeane]

The same with the dictation of what street blade signs should look like.  Why should they be all uniform?  Pretty boring.

So it's actually possible to see what street your turn is on.  Towns that get creative universally create signs that are impossible to see at night or at speeds greater than 10mph.

[SSOWorld]

The same with the dictation of what street blade signs should look like.  Why should they be all uniform?  Pretty boring.

So it's actually possible to see what street your turn is on.  Towns that get creative universally create signs that are impossible to see at night or at speeds greater than 10mph.

That's funny - cause I didn't see any improvements.

[vtk]

Ever try to read a street sign at night which is mounted just below a fancy light?

This is, in some places, more of a problem than signs that aren't reflective enough.  (Proper size and font is definitely important, though.)

[Brian556]

These are the original developer-installed signs in the Highland Shores nieghborhood of Highland Village, TX
Try reading these at more tahn 5 MPH or 5 ft. Luckily, there are only a few left.

[Scott5114]

Does the MUTCD explicitly prohibit nonuniform scaling of the standard alphabets? If not, it should.  There's a reason the font exists in a variety of widths, after all.

You mean stretching? Yes, it does prohibit the use of any font besides the approved font. Font includes typeface, proportions, and sizes.

Then how does it allow ClearView[/yes - I also went there]

The MUTCD doesn't allow Clearview. Clearview is technically still a pilot program being run by FHWA. To use Clearview, you still actually have to write a letter to FHWA and request that they allow you in the program.

The same with the dictation of what street blade signs should look like.  Why should they be all uniform?  Pretty boring.

The 2009 MUTCD still allows plenty of variation of what blades can look like. You can still include artwork, like a seal or flag, representing your city at one end of the blade, and you can still choose between green, white, blue, and brown blades. (Red and yellow are now prohibited because of the meanings assigned to red and yellow elsewhere in the MUTCD. Yellow blades look atrocious anyway, and while red looks decent and plenty of cities use it now, we can do without it.) Most of what the MUTCD dictates is the sizing of blades and text, and that you can't put the text in all-caps anymore, WHICH IS A GOOD THING BECAUSE ALL CAPS TEXT IS HARDER TO READ AND MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE SOME FUCKTARD THAT IS SHOUTING ALL THE TIME.

[Duke87]

The use of all caps on street signs never bothered me. The association with shouting only works with forums, chat, texting, etc. where there is a person "speaking". A sign does not have an implied speaker and is thus incapable of shouting. Plus, since it is normal for signs to be set in all caps (note that warning and regulatory signs still are), one does not bat an eye at it or get taken aback by it the way one would when someone types in all caps.

That said, there may be an argument for better legibility of mixed case, but my real gripe with the mandate is that they said "all signs must be mixed case by such and such date" rather than the more reasonable "all signs installed after such and such date shall be mixed case", and then let signs just get replaced in normal due course rather than forcing a rushed purge.

[vtk]

The use of all caps on street signs never bothered me. The association with shouting only works with forums, chat, texting, etc. where there is a person "speaking". A sign does not have an implied speaker and is thus incapable of shouting. Plus, since it is normal for signs to be set in all caps (note that warning and regulatory signs still are), one does not bat an eye at it or get taken aback by it the way one would when someone types in all caps.

That said, there may be an argument for better legibility of mixed case, but my real gripe with the mandate is that they said "all signs must be mixed case by such and such date" rather than the more reasonable "all signs installed after such and such date shall be mixed case", and then let signs just get replaced in normal due course rather than forcing a rushed purge.

Names of places and roads are to be in mixed-case; everything else remains all capitals.  To me this is a good idea – strengthening, clarifying, and simplifying a previously informal rule which was riddled with exceptions in the past.

As far as sign replacement, it's my understanding that the capitalization issue never had its own hard deadline requiring the replacement of existing signs.  Size and reflectivity, on the other hand, had deadlines (which I don't think were actually in the MUTCD but separate orders from FHWA) with many years lead time.  A combination of procrastination and a souring economy led to the sudden perception that those deadlines imposed a hardship.  Now those deadlines have been lifted – can we all get on with our lives now?

[Scott5114]

The use of all caps on street signs never bothered me. The association with shouting only works with forums, chat, texting, etc. where there is a person "speaking". A sign does not have an implied speaker and is thus incapable of shouting. Plus, since it is normal for signs to be set in all caps (note that warning and regulatory signs still are), one does not bat an eye at it or get taken aback by it the way one would when someone types in all caps.

That said, there may be an argument for better legibility of mixed case, but my real gripe with the mandate is that they said "all signs must be mixed case by such and such date" rather than the more reasonable "all signs installed after such and such date shall be mixed case", and then let signs just get replaced in normal due course rather than forcing a rushed purge.

I dunno. This is probably influenced by my being a roadgeek, but I always read the signs as being sort of a "message from the DOT" and thus a sign in all caps feels like the DOT is shouting at me. On a regulatory sign, that's appropriate. On a guide sign, not so much. Now that I take my girlfriend on roadtrips with me, we've taken to calling any sign inappropriately set in all-caps a "Diana sign" after a coworker of ours that tends to speak and type in all caps. (The girlfriend is not a true roadgeek yet but unnecessary use of caps is one part of the MUTCD she can instinctively spot.)

I certainly do buy the visibility argument. My city is transitioning from all-caps Series C to mixed-case C and the newer signs feel much easier on the eyes. I don't have the empirical data that FHWA has but my anecdotal evidence matches up with it.

[roadfro]

The use of all caps on street signs never bothered me. The association with shouting only works with forums, chat, texting, etc. where there is a person "speaking". A sign does not have an implied speaker and is thus incapable of shouting. Plus, since it is normal for signs to be set in all caps (note that warning and regulatory signs still are), one does not bat an eye at it or get taken aback by it the way one would when someone types in all caps.

That said, there may be an argument for better legibility of mixed case, but my real gripe with the mandate is that they said "all signs must be mixed case by such and such date" rather than the more reasonable "all signs installed after such and such date shall be mixed case", and then let signs just get replaced in normal due course rather than forcing a rushed purge.

Names of places and roads are to be in mixed-case; everything else remains all capitals.  To me this is a good idea – strengthening, clarifying, and simplifying a previously informal rule which was riddled with exceptions in the past.

As far as sign replacement, it's my understanding that the capitalization issue never had its own hard deadline requiring the replacement of existing signs.  Size and reflectivity, on the other hand, had deadlines (which I don't think were actually in the MUTCD but separate orders from FHWA) with many years lead time.  A combination of procrastination and a souring economy led to the sudden perception that those deadlines imposed a hardship.  Now those deadlines have been lifted – can we all get on with our lives now?

BTW: The "infromal rule" was more of MUTCD guidance which has recently become standard. The overall issue that's been muddied and misinterpreted by media stories covering it. It's all explained in more detail in another thread...

If I remember correctly, an earlier MUTCD gave a target compliance date for either reflectivity requirements or sizes of street name signs. A later MUTCD required all street names and destinations in guide signing to use mixed case lettering--this mandate was not given a compliance date, but became effective for all new signs. Thus, any signs being replaced under the prior target compliance date requirements for size/reflectivity and after the newer mandate for mixed case signing had to use mixed case lettering. Many jurisdictions that waited to near the deadline on the first issue to bring their signs into compliance ended up having to address both issues at once due to the timing.

[vdeane]

The use of all caps on street signs never bothered me. The association with shouting only works with forums, chat, texting, etc. where there is a person "speaking". A sign does not have an implied speaker and is thus incapable of shouting. Plus, since it is normal for signs to be set in all caps (note that warning and regulatory signs still are), one does not bat an eye at it or get taken aback by it the way one would when someone types in all caps.

That said, there may be an argument for better legibility of mixed case, but my real gripe with the mandate is that they said "all signs must be mixed case by such and such date" rather than the more reasonable "all signs installed after such and such date shall be mixed case", and then let signs just get replaced in normal due course rather than forcing a rushed purge.

Some signs would never get replaced in that case.  There's a street sign in my neighborhood that dates to the 1950s when the streets were first built; all the similar ones were replaced within the last 20 years but this one survived.

There are some wooden pole signs (not kidding; just a street name painted vertically on a piece of wood sticking out of the ground) in Potsdam; these are impossible to read during the day, let alone at night!  The poles must have a maximum width of about three inches from my estimation.

[hbelkins]

I must be unusual, but I don't consider all-caps to be harder to read than mixed-case. And I like New York's practice of boxing street names in all-caps, somewhat like an all-text route marker, and then using the destination in mixed case.

And I don't consider all-caps to be shouting either. Never have and never will. Of course I don't buy into a lot of Internet memes. For example, I don't recognize Godwin's Law. 

[1995hoo]

I encountered some mixed-case blade signs last Thursday morning at the corner of Roberts Road and Forest Avenue in Fairfax City. They were new–last time I had gone through there in early December they had all-caps signs, and the new ones still looked a little shiny as well. I found them harder to read than the all-caps signs in use at the next intersection after that one and I think it was because they appeared to be in a thicker typeface than the all-caps signs. I didn't get a very good chance to take a long look due to traffic and because I had to be at the courthouse by 8:30, but I have a dental appointment on Monday and maybe I'll get a better look and perhaps a picture. I'm assuming (with no evidence to support it) that someone in the sign shop felt that because the lowercase letters were smaller they needed a thicker typeface to help make them visible, but to me it just made them look more like black blobs of text on a white background (and I did have my glasses on, so that wasn't the problem).

[Scott5114]

And I don't consider all-caps to be shouting either. Never have and never will. Of course I don't buy into a lot of Internet memes. For example, I don't recognize Godwin's Law. 

This isn't an Internet meme, it's a fundamental difference in what's considered good etiquette between the older generations and the younger ones. The folks who used to use typewriters are used to all-caps, since that was used on a lot of typewritten documents back in the day (having never used a typewriter on a daily basis, I'm not sure why, maybe to prevent jamming or because all-caps typed documents were easier to OCR? Dunno). Younger folks, the sort that have always had computer keyboards, generally see all caps as used to emphasize certain words (e.g. "You have GOT to be kidding me! There's no way that SANDRA said that!") and when all-caps running text (i.e. not just for brief headings or titles) is used, thus interpret it as EVERY WORD BEING EMPHASIZED AND IT COMES OFF AS SHOUTING.

This has sort of become a point of contention at my workplace. About two-thirds of our shift is twenty-somethings, with the balance made mostly of women over 55 or so. The older workers tend to fill out forms and correspondence in all-caps, oblivious to the fact that the younger folks universally interpret it as them being shouted at. Someone makes a comment about it. The older folks refuse to see anything wrong with it. Hard feelings develop, and management now has to deal with two halves of a shift that want nothing to do with each other.

[J N Winkler]

This isn't an Internet meme, it's a fundamental difference in what's considered good etiquette between the older generations and the younger ones. The folks who used to use typewriters are used to all-caps, since that was used on a lot of typewritten documents back in the day (having never used a typewriter on a daily basis, I'm not sure why, maybe to prevent jamming or because all-caps typed documents were easier to OCR? Dunno).

Options for style markup on typewriters were very limited.  Your choices were essentially all caps or underlining.  On all manual typewriters and all but the last generation of electric and electronic typewriters, the underlining had to be applied separately:  in other words, you had first to type the text to be underlined, and then navigate to the start of it, and hit the underline key repeatedly.  It was not until the mid-1980's when IBM, Smith-Corona, and other typewriter manufacturers started making electronic typewriters with some basic word-processing capability, including the ability to type documents into a memory buffer where they could be edited before they were printed out, and to turn on style attributes like underlining using deadkey combinations.  On the other hand, it has always been possible to produce all-caps letters by hitting Caps Lock, so all caps has long been an obvious quick and dirty way to add emphasis.

OCR would not have been a consideration since OCR of sufficient reliability for general office use has been available for only the last ten years or so, long after typewriters were generally abandoned.  The rule of thumb is that OCR has to be better than 99.9% accurate to avoid proofreading and other cleanup costs.

This has sort of become a point of contention at my workplace. About two-thirds of our shift is twenty-somethings, with the balance made mostly of women over 55 or so. The older workers tend to fill out forms and correspondence in all-caps, oblivious to the fact that the younger folks universally interpret it as them being shouted at. Someone makes a comment about it. The older folks refuse to see anything wrong with it. Hard feelings develop, and management now has to deal with two halves of a shift that want nothing to do with each other.

Try to think of it from the older folks' point of view.  They use all caps not just because they remember typewriter conventions, but also because forms intended for filling out by hand have traditionally encouraged or required the use of block letters (i.e., all caps).  This is because the vast majority of people can produce readable handwritten capitals while their attempts to produce mixed-case hand printing tend to degrade into an unreadable cursive.  And, frankly, since more and more elementary schools are dropping penmanship from their curricula, you can expect to see a requirement for block printing becoming more common for forms that cannot be circulated in PDF--e.g., our Customs form 6059 (which you must fill out by hand when entering the US at an airport, and can be required to fill out at a land border at the inspector's discretion), or the landing card which non-British arrivals in Britain are required to fill out under the Immigration Act 1971.

Also, the older people in your office are surely old enough to remember the old type of public official, who would not work with you to mitigate any faults in the documentation you submitted, but would rather harshly tell you to do it all over again and go to the back of the queue.  (Think about the school superintendent played by Hume Cronyn in the film adaptation of Pat Conroy's memoir The Water is Wide--he perfectly exemplifies that type of official, and also shows why the South was able to get away with things like poll taxes and literacy tests for so long.  If you are a government official, you can get away with almost any kind of abuse if you can convincingly pretend that it is fair and impartial enforcement of the rules.)

[agentsteel53]

the old type of public official, who would not work with you to mitigate any faults in the documentation you submitted, but would rather harshly tell you to do it all over again and go to the back of the queue.

old type?  that happened to me as recently as sometime last year, at the post office, because I forgot to fill in both the declared value and the insurance value on one of those "bear down, you're making 68 copies" international shipment forms.

there's a damn good reason why I go to the UPS store, and not the post office, even if it costs $80 as opposed to $48 to mail something to europe.  the UPS store actually has to be reasonable with customers if they want to stay in business.

[J N Winkler]

the old type of public official, who would not work with you to mitigate any faults in the documentation you submitted, but would rather harshly tell you to do it all over again and go to the back of the queue.

old type?  that happened to me as recently as sometime last year, at the post office, because I forgot to fill in both the declared value and the insurance value on one of those "bear down, you're making 68 copies" international shipment forms.

Yes, old type.  You know--with celluloid collar, thin tie, pince-nez, wrinkled-prune expression, and "My word is law" attitude.  This is not to say that there aren't throwbacks still working behind customer-service counters.

(I don't like the USPS' procedures with regard to the internationally harmonized CN22 form.  The typical European postal service will give you just a sticker or a mucilage-backed paper which you fill out on your own and affix to the package yourself unless you choose to draw your own CN22 label in pen and ink, which I have done many times.  On the other hand, the USPS mandates the use of their own form, which has to be filled out in triplicate with both sender and recipient's names and addresses appearing both on the tear-off form and on a counterpart.  Very logically, the copy that is actually affixed to the package is the bottom paper in the triplicate, which is so faint it might as well be blank, and virtually guarantees that your package will be opened by the foreign postal service to verify the contents before it is sent on.  But I just go ahead and grab the CN22 mess before I show up at the window--I know when I'm whipped.)