Central Susquehanna Valley Transportation Project

[seicer]

Will it be that much shorter to use the CSVT and I-180 versus just US 15? US 15 was a good 30 minutes shorter when I ran through the area from Harrisburg Tuesday.

[Beltway]

Phase I will eliminate the 3 miles of I-80 and be that much shorter.

Well, right now, if you want to use I-180 you have to choose between hopping the river on I-80 or slogging through Northumberland.
Once CSVT is complete, "neither" will become an option, and a very much valued one at that.

I-80 is not a problem, as it has 6 lanes between US-15 and I-180, it was widened and the bridges were widened and have full shoulders.

Just save a few miles.

Will it be that much shorter to use the CSVT and I-180 versus just US 15? US 15 was a good 30 minutes shorter when I ran through the area from Harrisburg Tuesday.

The CSVT Phase I will connect US-15 near Winfield with the south end of the PA-147 freeway.

US-15 between I-80 and I-180 is rather slow, probably a wash when compared to using I-180 fully.

[Alps]

Will it be that much shorter to use the CSVT and I-180 versus just US 15? US 15 was a good 30 minutes shorter when I ran through the area from Harrisburg Tuesday.

I find that difficult to fathom since I-180 is nowhere near 30 miles long and I've never seen it back up significantly. That could be a fluke occurrence.

[seicer]

Will it be that much shorter to use the CSVT and I-180 versus just US 15? US 15 was a good 30 minutes shorter when I ran through the area from Harrisburg Tuesday.

I find that difficult to fathom since I-180 is nowhere near 30 miles long and I've never seen it back up significantly. That could be a fluke occurrence.

That's what I was wondering myself but taking US 15 from say, Lewisburg north to Williamsport (and north) almost always shows it to be a faster route than US 15 > I-80 > I-180. (The minutes saved was 30 minutes on my last trip, not 30 miles.)

When I look at it now, from my downtown Williamsport hotel room, it shows that the drive to Lewisburg is 33 minutes at 23.8 miles on US 15 versus 37 minutes at 35.2 miles for I-180/I-80/US 15. That's not that huge of a difference if you travel 65 MPH in the 55 MPH zones near Williamsport and 75 MPH in the 65 MPH zones elsewhere - and 55-65 MPH on US 15 as traffic tends to do.

[jemacedo9]

Will it be that much shorter to use the CSVT and I-180 versus just US 15? US 15 was a good 30 minutes shorter when I ran through the area from Harrisburg Tuesday.

I find that difficult to fathom since I-180 is nowhere near 30 miles long and I've never seen it back up significantly. That could be a fluke occurrence.

That's what I was wondering myself but taking US 15 from say, Lewisburg north to Williamsport (and north) almost always shows it to be a faster route than US 15 > I-80 > I-180. (The minutes saved was 30 minutes on my last trip, not 30 miles.)

When I look at it now, from my downtown Williamsport hotel room, it shows that the drive to Lewisburg is 33 minutes at 23.8 miles on US 15 versus 37 minutes at 35.2 miles for I-180/I-80/US 15. That's not that huge of a difference if you travel 65 MPH in the 55 MPH zones near Williamsport and 75 MPH in the 65 MPH zones elsewhere - and 55-65 MPH on US 15 as traffic tends to do.

I drive this area monthly.

The difference between the two is that US 15 has lights and hills.

The south side of the big hill outside of South Williamsport...southbound/downhill has a 40MPH Truck Speed, and northbound/uphill does not have a truck climbing lane for the entire upgrade...
...so between the lights and the hill, that can add a few extra minutes.

I-180 is consistent; little traffic, constant speed.

So I tend to take I-180 for ease, and it at worst may add 5 min to the trip under normal conditions, and at best save 10 min. 

Once the first leg of the CSVT opens, it bypasses all of the lights on US 15 in Lewisburg, so it will be a definite time saver there.

[Beltway]

I-180 is consistent; little traffic, constant speed

Well, not exactly, it ranges from a low of 15,000 AADT at the southern end, to 30,000-35,000 in the Williamsport - Montoursville area, but it is a easy drive compared to the aforementioned segment of US-15.

[Roadsguy]

I wonder what difference posting I-180 at 70 mph would make to the travel time difference compared to US 15.

[webny99]

Once the first leg of the CSVT opens, it bypasses all of the lights on US 15 in Lewisburg, so it will be a definite time saver there.

The three options will be:

(1) US 15 all the way
(2) US 15 > PA 147 > I-80 > US 15
(3) US 15 > PA 147 > I-180

The first two are essentially identical time-wise: the Lewisburg stoplights using (1) cancel out the additional distance (two river crossings instead of zero) using (2). Keep in mind the bypass will reduce traffic, especially truck traffic, and thus slowdowns, through Lewisburg.
Option (3) will remain ever so slightly longer. It will get closer to the other two options, because you will be able to avoid Northumberland, but it will still be about a minute or two longer instead of five or so. Of course, that's an average: those two minutes can easily be saved by driving faster.



There is currently also an Option (4) which CSVT will effectively eliminate: US 15 > I-80 > I-180. This option is a good one if you want as much 4-lane road as possible and believe Lewisburg is the lesser of two evils vs. Northumberland (which I do). In fact, we used this option on our return from Tennessee earlier this month. I think it goes without saying why this will be a foolish choice once CSVT is complete - just use the new river bridge and you get all freeway, save going through Lewisburg, plus miss the two cloverleaves on I-80.

[jemacedo9]

Once the first leg of the CSVT opens, it bypasses all of the lights on US 15 in Lewisburg, so it will be a definite time saver there.

The three options will be:

(1) US 15 all the way
(2) US 15 > PA 147 > I-80 > US 15
(3) US 15 > PA 147 > I-180

The first two are essentially identical time-wise: the Lewisburg stoplights using (1) cancel out the additional distance (two river crossings instead of zero) using (2). Keep in mind the bypass will reduce traffic, especially truck traffic, and thus slowdowns, through Lewisburg.
Option (3) will remain ever so slightly longer. It will get closer to the other two options, because you will be able to avoid Northumberland, but it will still be about a minute or two longer instead of five or so. Of course, that's an average: those two minutes can easily be saved by driving faster.



There is currently also an Option (4) which CSVT will effectively eliminate: US 15 > I-80 > I-180. This option is a good one if you want as much 4-lane road as possible and believe Lewisburg is the lesser of two evils vs. Northumberland (which I do). In fact, we used this option on our return from Tennessee earlier this month. I think it goes without saying why this will be a foolish choice once CSVT is complete - just use the new river bridge and you get all freeway, save going through Lewisburg, plus miss the two cloverleaves on I-80.

There are a few personal preferences in play here:
If one is solely looking at distance, I-180 is the longer route in terms of distance.
If one is looking solely at time, there is so little difference in the routes that one factor on any given day would change the preferred route...and in my opinion, US 15 has more factors that could add to delays. 

The third preference is time spent moving vs time spent sitting.  I prefer a route that is constantly moving...and am willing to sacrifice a few minutes here or there. 

Also...the current detours in Northumberland on US 11 North and PA 147 adds a wrinkle...

[webny99]

I have no objections to your preference for continually moving instead of stop and go at traffic lights - same here.
I-180 certainly has some truck traffic, but in my experience the majority of truck traffic uses US 15 (not that trucks using backroads is a shocker in PA!  ). I wonder if some companies require/recommend trucks use the route with shorter mileage.


So will CSVT cause trucks, at least some, to start using I-180 by default? Yes, probably.
Will CSVT increase total traffic volumes on I-180?  Yes, probably.
And will CSVT increase traffic volumes on I-80 cutting between PA 147 and US 15?  No, probably not.

That seems like a reasonable assessment at this point.

[briantroutman]

As a native of Williamsport who has lived both southward on the US 15 corridor (Harrisburg) and points east accessible via I-80 (Allentown, Philadelphia), I've made connections southward and eastward via both routes (I-180 and US 15) more times than I can count. Let me offer a few observations.

For what it's worth, AAA's latest TripTik strip map spanning the US 15 corridor from Corning to Harrisburg specified the preferred southbound route as:
US 15 South → I-180 East → I-80 West → US 15 South
When I worked at AAA, that routing always struck me as being odd because almost no one locally (except perhaps someone driving an underpowered truck with an oversized load) would go out and around on "the beltway"  to head south. But one day while heading eastbound on I-180 near Muncy, I passed a New York-plated car in which the driver was holding onto a TripTik and looking at that very strip.

Every navigation app that I've used will default to using US 15 between I-80 and Williamsport–even if you're approaching from the east. And it is usually about one minute less in terms of travel time, despite the traffic signals and lower speeds throughout. But in general, the continuous flow of I-180 is more pleasant (as has been observed), and I'm able to maintain higher average fuel economy since I-180 lacks US 15's interruptions and its steep climb over Bald Eagle Mountain.

US 15 used to have a distinct scenic advantage in terms of the impressive panorama of the West Branch Valley that bursts into view northbound just as you round the bend toward South Williamsport. But over the years, trees have grown up to the point that the vista is largely obscured, particularly in foliage season.

The replacement of the Market Street Bridge several years ago has also hampered the northbound connection for through US 15 traffic. The left lane approaching the SPUI tends to back up during periods of heavy traffic (holidays, summer weekends, etc.), and it can take multiple signal cycles to get through. Assumably, the reconfiguration of the interchange anticipated the eventual completion of the CSVT and the fact that through US 15 corridor traffic would generally not be using the bridge.

Once the CSVT is complete, I think it will be the clear choice for most north-south traffic. I'll probably use it for most US 15 corridor trips and occasionally use the old road through Lewisburg just for variety.

One thing I've noted in the past (but hasn't been discussed much): The approved numbering plan has the US 15 designation exiting the CSVT at Winfield and following the old alignment via Lewisburg and Allenwood. From that point northward, the new roadway will be PA 147 (and I-180 north of I-80–as it is now). I wonder to what extent motorists will blindly follow 15 shields rather than take the all-freeway route.

[webny99]

For what it's worth, AAA's latest TripTik strip map spanning the US 15 corridor from Corning to Harrisburg specified the preferred southbound route as:
US 15 South → I-180 East → I-80 West → US 15 South

That's the option I mentioned above as being essentially irrelevant once CSVT is complete. Once you take I-180, it only makes sense to connect to US 15 via PA 147 instead of backtracking on I-80 and then dealing with Lewisburg.

One thing I've noted in the past (but hasn't been discussed much): The approved numbering plan has the US 15 designation exiting the CSVT at Winfield and following the old alignment via Lewisburg and Allenwood. From that point northward, the new roadway will be PA 147 (and I-180 north of I-80–as it is now). I wonder to what extent motorists will blindly follow 15 shields rather than take the all-freeway route.

Most who have traveled through the area before will - or at least should - be familiar with the PA 147 designation.
I think it will be more common for motorists to blindly follow the freeway, since following US 15 northbound will require exiting via a loop ramp.

Navigation apps are likely to recommend PA 147 to bypass Lewisburg, regardless of whether they recommend I-180 or US 15 between 80 and Williamsport.

[vdeane]

It's unfortunate how the freeway changes numbers.  Personally, I'd have US 15 follow the new freeway and I-180 (truncating to I-80 if I-99 is ever finished), with PA 147 taking over current US 15.

[Roadsguy]

It's unfortunate how the freeway changes numbers.  Personally, I'd have US 15 follow the new freeway and I-180 (truncating to I-80 if I-99 is ever finished), with PA 147 taking over current US 15.

Honestly, I think I-180 should be extended down the CSVT to Selinsgrove and resigned north-south. The planned routings of US 11 and 15 can stay the same, and PA 147 can either be truncated to Northumberland (with PA 405 extending south to Northumberland), rerouted to end at the Ridge Road interchange, or extended along its former alignment parallel to I-180 to end either at the I-180/US 220 interchange or continue west into Williamsport somewhere.

Perhaps make it I-199 instead of I-180 so that it actually ends at its parent.

[Michael]

When I was on I-180 and US 15 in 2008 and 2009, I saw temporary "ALT US 15" signs along I-180.  I don't see any in Street View, and can't remember which of the two years I saw them (it may even have been both years), so I don't know how long they were there.

The first time I was on US 15 between I-80 and Williamsport was January 2015.  Once we got through South Williamsport, it was fairly quick, but I can't remember how it compares to I-180.  I've also done I-81 --> I-80 --> US 11 --> US 11/15 before too.  That route goes through Northumberland, but I don't recall any major slowdowns, although it was at an off-peak time.  Between Lewisburg and Shamokin Dam, Shamokin Dam is the worse of the two.

I find it weird that Google Maps refuses to use I-180, since in my experience, it seems to favor all-freeway routes, even if they are a few miles longer.  In some cases, it even uses all-freeway routes that are both longer, and take more time.

[Beltway]

Honestly, I think I-180 should be extended down the CSVT to Selinsgrove and resigned north-south.

I agree and I have said so before.

I find it weird that Google Maps refuses to use I-180, since in my experience, it seems to favor all-freeway routes, even if they are a few miles longer. 

I agree, as I took US-15 one time, and the other 15-some times I have used I-180 even though it is longer in distance and a bit longer in time.  US-15 is mostly 2 lanes and has grades and has narrow shoulders in some places.  I-180 is vastly better.

[Alps]

It's unfortunate how the freeway changes numbers.  Personally, I'd have US 15 follow the new freeway and I-180 (truncating to I-80 if I-99 is ever finished), with PA 147 taking over current US 15.

Honestly, I think I-180 should be extended down the CSVT to Selinsgrove and resigned north-south.

Completely agree. Never made sense to be signed east-west between directionality and exit numbering.

[LeftyJR]

I live in the Williamsport area and I can tell you that 75% of locals take US15 between there and Lewisburg...me included.

[RoadMaster09]

Looks to me like a few more residential properties are impacted under the new alignment (SE of "11th Ave"  on the map). Now to figure out the other 99%...

Some of it might be inflation, especially with higher costs of pavement and/or concrete.

[webny99]

I live in the Williamsport area and I can tell you that 75% of locals take US15 between there and Lewisburg...me included.

For local traffic, US 15 is the obvious choice.
For long distance traffic, many already prefer I-180 and will be glad to have the all freeway option (me included).

Nothing wrong with US 15 for local traffic, but it gets wearing quickly as part of a longer trip.

[webny99]

I have been doing a bit of research recently to find out what impacts CSVT will have on other area roadways. In particular, PennDOT seems to be downplaying the potential for increased traffic on Ridge Road. Linked fact sheet doesn't contain anything outright false, but (IMO) the framing is a little off. Decreased traffic through Northumberland and Shamokin Dam isn't going to encourage long distance traffic to pass through said areas -- not with a new freeway bypass available! Ridge Road to CSVT will almost certainly become the de-facto route from Danville to Selinsgrove, and I could easily see volumes on Ridge Road doubling or tripling.




Also interesting to evaluate is the impact to traffic patterns north of I-80. Will traffic on I-180 increase, for example?
Obviously, US 15 will remain the shortest route between Williamsport and I-80, but maybe the fact that CSVT aligns with I-180 will encourage its use instead of US 15 as the main through route.

The entire CSVT will save, in my estimation, about 8 to 10 minutes on a trip from Selinsgrove to Montandon. Keep in mind, however, that those savings are accumulated from bypassing both Shamokin Dam and Northumberland. As such, traffic using US 15 will only benefit from part of the time savings (5 to 7 minutes, approximately) since the US 15 corridor doesn't reap the Northumberland savings. Thus, utilizing PA 147 will be a more suitable alternative than currently, since the time using that route will be reduced by the full 8 to 10 minutes. Time-wise, it will be a true toss-up for US 15 traffic as to whether to use the new river bridge to bypass Lewisburg and then hop back over on I-80. I-180 will still add about two or three minutes to a Selinsgrove>Williamsport trip (it currently adds about five - the difference is being able to bypass Northumberland).

[Alps]

I have been doing a bit of research recently to find out what impacts CSVT will have on other area roadways. In particular, PennDOT seems to be downplaying the potential for increased traffic on Ridge Road. Linked fact sheet doesn't contain anything outright false, but (IMO) the framing is a little off. Decreased traffic through Northumberland and Shamokin Dam isn't going to encourage long distance traffic to pass through said areas -- not with a new freeway bypass available! Ridge Road to CSVT will almost certainly become the de-facto route from Danville to Selinsgrove, and I could easily see volumes on Ridge Road doubling or tripling.

What? The Ridge Road I'm seeing isn't a through road.

[webny99]

I have been doing a bit of research recently to find out what impacts CSVT will have on other area roadways. In particular, PennDOT seems to be downplaying the potential for increased traffic on Ridge Road. Linked fact sheet doesn't contain anything outright false, but (IMO) the framing is a little off. Decreased traffic through Northumberland and Shamokin Dam isn't going to encourage long distance traffic to pass through said areas -- not with a new freeway bypass available! Ridge Road to CSVT will almost certainly become the de-facto route from Danville to Selinsgrove, and I could easily see volumes on Ridge Road doubling or tripling.

What? The Ridge Road I'm seeing isn't a through road.

This Ridge Road?

The former western end has been renamed Greenhouse Road and turned into a dead end, while the new western end also connects to PA 147 (which will become PA 405) and will have an interchange with CSVT. I recall reading that PennDOT is also going to take over maintenance.

[froggie]

^ Most of it (from Cannery Rd east) is already under PennDOT maintenance (SR 1024).  Presuming you're referring to PennDOT potentially taking over the rest.

[webny99]

Yes, one of the documents on csvt.com stated that PennDOT would be maintaining it in its entirety. I wasn't aware they already maintained most of it.