Traffic signal

[jakeroot]

There are tons of doghouses with backplates partially missing. Broken backplates seem to be more common on doghouses; I think it has something to do with the signal design requiring more exposed backplate.

The doghouses in my area (and in Massachusetts as well) sometimes use a full "square" backplate (most common I've seen in ME), and some, just around the outline. (most common I've seen in MA)

Not sure what is more advantageous or disadvantageous in terms of visibility, (wind) loading, etc.

I've wondered this myself as well. I've seen both around my area, although the "full square" style is more common by about 8 to 1. I can't quite figure out what the advantage is. Wind loading requirements seems like a decent explanation, although I've seen the two combined at one intersection.

MO has the full square style mostly, with a few exceptions. Ohio's the only state I've seen that predominantly uses the outline backplate. Well, also some in CO and WV (using their weirdly aligned backplates).

I've always preferred side-by-side 5-section assemblies. The central red orb, to me, seems unnecessary, and I consider left or right turn arrows to be additions to the signal, and thus should be placed to the left or right of a regular three-orb RYG signal (with respect to the direction it is facing). CO and WV get this, but otherwise, this seems to be a rare opinion. Although I wouldn't normally be a fan of cutout backplates, I think the cutout style used in CO and WV is pretty slick and probably would be my preference in areas that use side-by-side 5-section assemblies.

[jakeroot]

There are tons of doghouses with backplates partially missing. Broken backplates seem to be more common on doghouses; I think it has something to do with the signal design requiring more exposed backplate.

The doghouses in my area (and in Massachusetts as well) sometimes use a full "square" backplate (most common I've seen in ME), and some, just around the outline. (most common I've seen in MA)

Not sure what is more advantageous or disadvantageous in terms of visibility, (wind) loading, etc.

I've wondered this myself as well. I've seen both around my area, although the "full square" style is more common by about 8 to 1. I can't quite figure out what the advantage is. Wind loading requirements seems like a decent explanation, although I've seen the two combined at one intersection.

Utah does not install backplates on 99% of its doghouses despite using them very consistently on all of its other signals.

This is a practice I've seen in WA as well (example here, both on-ramps). Although, with the adoption of FYA signals, and installation of 4-section bimodal right turn signals becoming far more common than 5-section doghouse signals, I have no idea if this practice would still continue today. All new signals in areas that use backplates, now have backplates, with very few exceptions.

[SignBridge]

Jakeroot, the side-by-side design is used extensively on Long Island by both NYSDOT Region-10 and Nassau County DPW. Not sure what Suffolk County does. Happily, no more doghouses here. And I completely agree with your logic re: the S-B-S configuration.

[CJResotko]

This is the first 3-section FYA signal that I've seen in Michigan.

[jakeroot]

Jakeroot, the side-by-side design is used extensively on Long Island by both NYSDOT Region-10 and Nassau County DPW. Not sure what Suffolk County does. Happily, no more doghouses here. And I completely agree with your logic re: the S-B-S configuration.

I also saw them for years in Richland and Kennewick, both in Washington State, but the overwhelming majority seems to be in those two states I've mentioned. Although yes, that area of New York does seem to be full of them, much to my delight.

[Amtrakprod]

This is the link I meant to send: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3749527,-71.1399545,3a,21.7y,113.22h,91.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJF3KxTNQd16USUb91zhi8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[jakeroot]

This is the link I meant to send: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3749527,-71.1399545,3a,21.7y,113.22h,91.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJF3KxTNQd16USUb91zhi8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

All good.

It's the exact opposite of the bus queue jump signals seen in British Columbia; in BC, the solid white vertical line is above the red.

[fwydriver405]

Saw these bus signals around E Buena Vista Dr in Disney World:

1. Do bus signals need left turn signal signs or all arrow displays for bus dedicated turn lanes? Example

2. On the upside-down T signal for the buses, what indication is that on the right-hand side? A turn arrow? Example

BONUS: And this U-turn RYG signal not too far away: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.3701254,-81.5139167,3a,24.2y,253.86h,114.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqrysj-OgFbWlMaQjl18ffQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[SignBridge]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

[jakeroot]

2. On the upside-down T signal for the buses, what indication is that on the right-hand side? A turn arrow? Example

Managed to find a GSV shot. It displays an angled white arrow.

Based on this, it seems the standard for bus and transit turn signals is to display a white line at an angle.

[jeffandnicole]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

Well, they're also not like the arms Jersey used, which were designed to droop.  If they weren't designed that way but drooped anyway, they would be getting hit by trucks.

And their more recent preferred version doesn't either:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/NYmVQpoYFuyoc7747

https://maps.app.goo.gl/dB7aB1CYQBFM1KAF6

[fwydriver405]

2. On the upside-down T signal for the buses, what indication is that on the right-hand side? A turn arrow? Example

Managed to find a GSV shot. It displays an angled white arrow.

Based on this, it seems the standard for bus and transit turn signals is to display a white line at an angle.

I know in Los Angeles, for the clearance indication for the light rail vehicles, they use an angled indication for such indication. IIRC, is the new standard for transit clearance a white triangle?

[roadfro]

2. On the upside-down T signal for the buses, what indication is that on the right-hand side? A turn arrow? Example

Managed to find a GSV shot. It displays an angled white arrow.

Based on this, it seems the standard for bus and transit turn signals is to display a white line at an angle.

I know in Los Angeles, for the clearance indication for the light rail vehicles, they use an angled indication for such indication. IIRC, is the new standard for transit clearance a white triangle?

Here's the 2009 MUTCD figure that gives the meaning of light rail signals (which have been used by many communities for dedicated bus lane or bus queue jump signals, per an option in section 4D.27). These have been standard since at least the 2000 MUTCD.

[STLmapboy]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

They're thicker. NJ's new masts are normal size or thinner, like this. Florida does a good job using relatively thick masts--when it uses masts, of course.

[jakeroot]

2. On the upside-down T signal for the buses, what indication is that on the right-hand side? A turn arrow? Example

Managed to find a GSV shot. It displays an angled white arrow.

Based on this, it seems the standard for bus and transit turn signals is to display a white line at an angle.

I know in Los Angeles, for the clearance indication for the light rail vehicles, they use an angled indication for such indication. IIRC, is the new standard for transit clearance a white triangle?

Here's the 2009 MUTCD figure that gives the meaning of light rail signals (which have been used by many communities for dedicated bus lane or bus queue jump signals, per an option in section 4D.27). These have been standard since at least the 2000 MUTCD.

Thank you for posting that. I've not seen it before.

Here in Tacoma, our trolley system (Sound Transit "T" Line) has been using these transit signals since 2003 when the system opened. I was confused why all of the transit signals only used two orbs. I now see, based on the bottom of that image, that a flashing "go" signal can also be used to indicate "prepare to stop". This is how this system operates.

Armed with this information, I've begun to look around at the rest of WA to see what the standard is. It would appear that the three-head option (ostensibly the "standard" design) is not used here, with the two preferred types being (A) the two lens variant with flashing "go" signals (even for bus lanes), or (B) louvered/3M signals with standard RYG orbs (pretty much exclusively in Seattle and some areas to the north, and certainly not my preferred option).

Only thing I'm not seeing is an explanation for why Tacoma's two-lens system uses amber horizontal lines (to indicate "STOP"), when the MUTCD clearly indicates that white must be used. I have to assume that either the 2000 MUTCD allowed the use of amber for the horizontal "STOP" indications, or the system was designed before the 2000 MUTCD and used colors/signals found outside the US.

[jeffandnicole]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

They're thicker. NJ's new masts are normal size or thinner, like this. Florida does a good job using relatively thick masts--when it uses masts, of course.

How new could they be when they are the same exact mast arms that show up in the 2008 GSV?  https://goo.gl/maps/LhUZVz1equS2MQEC9

Not only did I respond with examples of new masts that are, you know, newer...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/NYmVQpoYFuyoc7747

https://maps.app.goo.gl/dB7aB1CYQBFM1KAF6

...but we've already gone thru with you on this subject before.

I didn't know NJ was getting into the bulky mast arm game.

How could you have not known? You posted a link to one yourself:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5944.msg2511088#msg2511088

Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #2964 on: June 24, 2020, 10:35:41 PM »
ReplyQuote
I wish NJ would do sexy thick mast arms like this more often 
https://www.google.pl/maps/@39.4870372,-75.0431734,3a,75y,278.83h,93.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl1J3c-LOME5kHvY4uBWw2g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

At some point, get it together man about NJ's traffic light masts.

[jakeroot]

^^^
I think some of our younger users (although all of us occasionally too) have a tendency to post before thinking. Things like, "have I posted this before?", "am I making a consistent argument?", or even "is this the correct link?" are things we all must ask before posting.

[STLmapboy]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

They're thicker. NJ's new masts are normal size or thinner, like this. Florida does a good job using relatively thick masts--when it uses masts, of course.

How new could they be when they are the same exact mast arms that show up in the 2008 GSV?  https://goo.gl/maps/LhUZVz1equS2MQEC9

Actually, those aren't the same masts.
2017
2019
You're getting a bit worked up about this.

[jakeroot]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

They're thicker. NJ's new masts are normal size or thinner, like this. Florida does a good job using relatively thick masts--when it uses masts, of course.

How new could they be when they are the same exact mast arms that show up in the 2008 GSV?  https://goo.gl/maps/LhUZVz1equS2MQEC9

Actually, those aren't the same masts.
2017
2019
You're getting a bit worked up about this.

In fairness, you have (on at least a couple occasions) posted the same thing before, which does drive a few of us a little mad.

But, you make a good point that those are different mast arms. Although if your point is that NJ uses thinner (or normal size), droopier mast arms these days, that doesn't seem backed up by those links that jeffandnicole provided of newer mast arms that are quite thick.

It seems that NJ is like every state: they use the appropriate mast arm size depending on numerous factors. To imply that one state has a single standard or even a tendency is perhaps a bit misleading when every state is going to have variations.

[Amtrakprod]

^^^
I think some of our younger users (although all of us occasionally too) have a tendency to post before thinking. Things like, "or even "is this the correct link?" are things we all must ask before posting.

Haha yes now I'm double checking. I never had this issue on chrome so I never had to double check before.


iPhone

[jakeroot]

^^^
I think some of our younger users (although all of us occasionally too) have a tendency to post before thinking. Things like, "or even "is this the correct link?" are things we all must ask before posting.

Haha yes now I'm double checking. I never had this issue on chrome so I never had to double check before.

Not saying I was thinking of you when I said that, but

Always good to double-check! I've made that error many times too. We all appreciate you (and everyone else) taking the extra time.

[jeffandnicole]

Note that those Florida mast-arms don't droop the way New Jersey's do.

They're thicker. NJ's new masts are normal size or thinner, like this. Florida does a good job using relatively thick masts--when it uses masts, of course.

How new could they be when they are the same exact mast arms that show up in the 2008 GSV?  https://goo.gl/maps/LhUZVz1equS2MQEC9

Actually, those aren't the same masts.
2017
2019
You're getting a bit worked up about this.

You got me on that one. Very identical though.

But overall though, NJ does use thicker masts for current installations.

[SignBridge]

J&N, you said above that NJ's earlier installed mast-arms were designed to droop. You'll have to humor me here. Why would anyone deliberately design mast-arms to droop? They look horrible and give the appearance of being inadequate for the load, like they're going to collapse.

[EpicRoadways]

Wyoming, I appreciate the effort. I really do. But this has got to stop. Just mount the signs on the mast arm or (even better) on the side of the road in advance of the intersection like every other state.

[roadfro]

Here's the 2009 MUTCD figure that gives the meaning of light rail signals (which have been used by many communities for dedicated bus lane or bus queue jump signals, per an option in section 4D.27). These have been standard since at least the 2000 MUTCD.

Thank you for posting that. I've not seen it before.

Here in Tacoma, our trolley system (Sound Transit "T" Line) has been using these transit signals since 2003 when the system opened. I was confused why all of the transit signals only used two orbs. I now see, based on the bottom of that image, that a flashing "go" signal can also be used to indicate "prepare to stop". This is how this system operates.

Armed with this information, I've begun to look around at the rest of WA to see what the standard is. It would appear that the three-head option (ostensibly the "standard" design) is not used here, with the two preferred types being (A) the two lens variant with flashing "go" signals (even for bus lanes), or (B) louvered/3M signals with standard RYG orbs (pretty much exclusively in Seattle and some areas to the north, and certainly not my preferred option).

Only thing I'm not seeing is an explanation for why Tacoma's two-lens system uses amber horizontal lines (to indicate "STOP"), when the MUTCD clearly indicates that white must be used. I have to assume that either the 2000 MUTCD allowed the use of amber for the horizontal "STOP" indications, or the system was designed before the 2000 MUTCD and used colors/signals found outside the US.

I'm guessing that Tacoma must have designed their system based on something that existed elsewhere before the 2000 MUTCD. The 2000 MUTCD did not have options for colored symbols used in light rail signals–the figure remains virtually unchanged from the 2000 to 2009 manuals. I believe the light rail signal section was new to the 2000 MUTCD, as I could did not find similarly-titled chapters in the 1988 MUTCD.


Unrelated: Can we talk about that doghouse signal head from your "bus lanes" link? My god is that a wonky sight... And it's not like they really needed programmable visibility for just the left turn aspects here...