Traffic signal

[SignBridge]

New York City and Nassau County DPW on Long Island do not use backplates at all. New York State DOT Region-10 seems to be using them with reflective borders on virtually all new installations last few years and some have disappeared already just like they did thirty years ago when they tried it.

[Bruce]

Same here in Washington too. Didn't catch me off-guard when I found the original photo on his Flickr. Under $4/gal is pretty rare except for diesel.

$3.50-3.60 seems to be around the average for cheaper gas in the Seattle metro, even in places like the Eastside.

[jakeroot]

Same here in Washington too. Didn't catch me off-guard when I found the original photo on his Flickr. Under $4/gal is pretty rare except for diesel.

$3.50-3.60 seems to be around the average for cheaper gas in the Seattle metro, even in places like the Eastside.

I haven't seen anything that low for a while. I'm not suggesting below-$3/gal is unheard of, but it does seem like most stations are either right-around $4/gal, or way above it (I see some stations on the Eastside at $4.40+/gal), from GasBuddy).

[jeffandnicole]

A bike signal at my college started operating a couple days ago. Though I'm wondering, aren't all newly installed signals required to have a backplate in 2021?

No.  In NJ there's been some signals installed with the reflective backplates, but it almost seems like certain engineers add them; others don't.  It's very random where they've been added.

An intersection near me on a county road was slightly modified and the signals retrofitted with the reflectorized backplates; it's the first intersection in my county I can think of with them.

[roadfro]

I've never been a fan of HAWK signals, and the whole "should be installed at least 100 feet from side streets or driveways that are controlled by stop or yield signs" thing is one of the reasons for that. Except in limited situations, such as trail crossings or building/business entrances, mid-block crosswalks tend to push pedestrians out of their desired path of travel, since people tend to walk along streets, not through random bits of private property. Granted, this isn't unique to HAWK signals -- Oregon installs a lot of mid-block RRFBs that would make much more sense at an actual intersection -- but it's still a frustrating design tendency.

In the UK, our pelican crossings (analogous to hawks) have zig-zag lines on the approach which highlight the control area of the crossing and allow them to be used near unsignalised sideroads.

As an outsider who is nonetheless familiar with the "hybrid method" that hawks are trying implement, I'm also no convinced about their application. For a start, flashing alternating red lights instinctively suggests to me that you must stop and not go through under any circumstances. This is because, here at least, flashing double reds mean emergency services can't go through, even with their lights on - most commonly used at railway level crossings. So using it for "proceed when clear" seems counterintuitive to me.

Also, we're phasing out our pelican crossings here. No new ones are allowed, although existing ones can remain for the duration of their serviceable life. This is because they've been superseded by a crossing which uses detection technology so that the lights change quickly as soon as the crosswalk is clear. An advantage of this is that the standard traffic signal sequence seen at intersections is used, as the inbetween "flashing" stage is made redundant. So it's kinda weird that the US is going down this route 50 years after we first did and after it was already made obsolete here.

I really didn't understand why we reinvented the wheel with the HAWK signals, when the UK had the same idea with the much more intuitive Pelican Crossing 50+ years ago. While I would like to see mid-block crossings (and even crossing signals at regular intersections, tbh) in the US deploy some of the pedestrian detection technology you mention to make things more seamless for all road users, I would even be happy if we could just swap out the HAWK for the Pelican.

[US 89]

If the pelican crossings are the ones that flash a yellow light during the pedestrian countdown phase, I would love to see those in the US. There is even precedent for that here with regular yellow flashing beacons at some ped crossings without a full signal.

As far as I can tell, it has exactly the same functionality as a HAWK but with far less ambiguity on what the various signal indications mean.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

I really didn't understand why we reinvented the wheel with the HAWK signals, when the UK had the same idea with the much more intuitive Pelican Crossing 50+ years ago. While I would like to see mid-block crossings (and even crossing signals at regular intersections, tbh) in the US deploy some of the pedestrian detection technology you mention to make things more seamless for all road users, I would even be happy if we could just swap out the HAWK for the Pelican.

I think it's a case of NIH syndrome. The FHWA was too stubborn to change its signal warrant criteria for pedestrian crossings, so instead they had to basically come up with a loophole by claiming that HAWKs are beacons, even though by legally forcing drivers to stop they function as signals.

[Mr Kite]

If the pelican crossings are the ones that flash a yellow light during the pedestrian countdown phase, I would love to see those in the US. There is even precedent for that here with regular yellow flashing beacons at some ped crossings without a full signal.

As far as I can tell, it has exactly the same functionality as a HAWK but with far less ambiguity on what the various signal indications mean.

Yes, a UK standard pelican crossing looks like this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CT0R_BQGI6E

Australia has them too but with a flashing red man instead of green (which you can't really see in the video). They also have a sign informing the motorist about the flashing period, which seems to be shorter than in the UK, with the red light being longer...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YMZL9wkwHhU

The UK didn't get it right first time and there were several experiments in the 1960s leading up to the launch of the finalized design in 1969. The first incarnation was known as the panda crossing and had a fair few counterintuitive issues not totally dissimilar to hawks. This article pretty much tells the whole story...

https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/pedestrian-crossings

[Caps81943]

A bike signal at my college started operating a couple days ago. Though I'm wondering, aren't all newly installed signals required to have a backplate in 2021?
Image Clipped

Many places (Maryland, Alabama, DC, West Virginia, North Carolina come to mind) still routinely install signals without backplates. I personally hate them, but they're still out there

[Big John]

A bike signal at my college started operating a couple days ago. Though I'm wondering, aren't all newly installed signals required to have a backplate in 2021?
Image Clipped

Many places (Maryland, Alabama, DC, West Virginia, North Carolina come to mind) still routinely install signals without backplates. I personally hate them, but they're still out there

And the shall only applies to 45mph or higher plus certain intersections for lighting situations.

[steviep24]

These very long mast arms were recently installed at the intersection of NY 252 and Hylan Dr. in Rochester, NY. Being a NYSDOT install I'm surprised they didn't use a box span setup like they have recently done at some other large intersections.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0870344,-77.629207,3a,75y,233.82h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sW7Qv3oaOCuWuyOBZvY0NmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

This intersection previously had a cross span wire setup as seen here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0870658,-77.6292257,3a,75y,233.82h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4agVsNd0cK0XdcBKedvqIw!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

[Mr Kite]

That looks 100 times better.

[jakeroot]

Something about those mast arms seems off to me. It's either that it's very horizontal (as opposed to slightly ascending away from the mast), or the lack of mast lighting. Or both. Example of what I'm used to seeing and what looks more normal to me.

The mast arm is definitely very thick, so it could be that too.

[steviep24]

Something about those mast arms seems off to me. It's either that it's very horizontal (as opposed to slightly ascending away from the mast), or the lack of mast lighting. Or both. Example of what I'm used to seeing and what looks more normal to me.

The mast arm is definitely very thick, so it could be that too.

The mast arms here are the longest ones I have seen for any NYSDOT installation. It seems the contractor who installed these messed up with the heights so that could be a reason they look weird. NYSDOT used to be a mainly span wire agency but recently are installing a lot of mast arms. They seem to prefer to center the signals on the arm but for some reason two of the mast arms are installed too low resulting in the signal heads being mounted from the bottom which looks really strange to me. I've seen this issue on other NYSDOT mast arm signals as well.

Monroe County is the local agency that also installs signals in this area. All signals they install are on mast arms and they've been all mast arm since the 1990's. They are usually better looking installs than what NYSDOT does and their signals are mounted from the top so they look like they hang from the mast arm. They do have a lot of old span wire signals they maintain though.

Here is an example of a typical Monroe Co. signal installation. This one is around the corner from the other signal I posted. NOTE: The mast arms are from the 1980's with updated signal heads. Arrows are bi-modal. The back plates were just recently installed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.085611,-77.6296055,3a,75y,208.87h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3YsfFrSbYepp0V_mwEihGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

[roadfro]

These very long mast arms were recently installed at the intersection of NY 252 and Hylan Dr. in Rochester, NY. Being a NYSDOT install I'm surprised they didn't use a box span setup like they have recently done at some other large intersections.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0870344,-77.629207,3a,75y,233.82h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sW7Qv3oaOCuWuyOBZvY0NmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

Something about those mast arms seems off to me. It's either that it's very horizontal (as opposed to slightly ascending away from the mast), or the lack of mast lighting. Or both. Example of what I'm used to seeing and what looks more normal to me.

The mast arm is definitely very thick, so it could be that too.

I was thinking the same thing, as I am used to seeing something similar to Jake since that is Nevada's standard (as seen here). I think it's the very horizontal mast arms.

Interesting that they installed masts and arms, but the street light luminaires for the intersection remain on wood posts (several connected via overhead wire). Should've done the tall masts and moved the street lights to make the overall intersection a little cleaner.

[SignBridge]

The street lights were probably installed by a different agency than NYS DOT. Most likely the local Town. NYS DOT does not usually provide lighting on state highways, though there are some exceptions especially on Long Island.

[steviep24]

The street lights were probably installed by a different agency than NYS DOT. Most likely the local Town. NYS DOT does not usually provide lighting on state highways, though there are some exceptions especially on Long Island.

Interestingly the old span wire setup there had street lights on the strain poles.

[jakeroot]

Kind of off-topic: could someone remind me again what those vertical metal bars are on the end of the mast arm? I see them a lot these days (including that NYS intersection we are talking about).

[steviep24]

Kind of off-topic: could someone remind me again what those vertical metal bars are on the end of the mast arm? I see them a lot these days (including that NYS intersection we are talking about).

I think they are weights to stabilize the mast arm. So they don't sway too much in high winds. Those are the only mast arms I know of in my area that have them but they are also the longest.

On another note if those signals were installed just a year ago or two NYSDOT would have used a box span setup.

[Dirt Roads]

Kind of off-topic: could someone remind me again what those vertical metal bars are on the end of the mast arm? I see them a lot these days (including that NYS intersection we are talking about).

I think they are weights to stabilize the mast arm. So they don't sway too much in high winds. Those are the only mast arms I know of in my area that have them but they are also the longest.

I believe those are referred to as "traffic signal preemption devices", which are infrared detectors designed to receive preempt signals sent from emergency vehicles.  Some of the old ones looked like whistles mounted on a tube on the end of the masts.  There's a priority system given to the type of preempt signals, as many traffic engineers are unaware that railroad crossing preempt circuits have priority over emergency vehicles. 

[MCRoads]

Kind of off-topic: could someone remind me again what those vertical metal bars are on the end of the mast arm? I see them a lot these days (including that NYS intersection we are talking about).

I think they are weights to stabilize the mast arm. So they don't sway too much in high winds. Those are the only mast arms I know of in my area that have them but they are also the longest.

I believe those are referred to as "traffic signal preemption devices", which are infrared detectors designed to receive preempt signals sent from emergency vehicles.  Some of the old ones looked like whistles mounted on a tube on the end of the masts.  There's a priority system given to the type of preempt signals, as many traffic engineers are unaware that railroad crossing preempt circuits have priority over emergency vehicles.

What? How do they not know that!! Do they expect the train to stop on a dime for the ambulance??

[jakeroot]

I believe those are referred to as "traffic signal preemption devices", which are infrared detectors designed to receive preempt signals sent from emergency vehicles.  Some of the old ones looked like whistles mounted on a tube on the end of the masts.  There's a priority system given to the type of preempt signals, as many traffic engineers are unaware that railroad crossing preempt circuits have priority over emergency vehicles.

Thank you. I wasn't sure what it could be, but that seems like a reasonable explanation. It's interesting how much larger these newer preemption devices are compared to older examples. The "whistle" design is the one I am most familiar with. These new ones must be a lot better!

[steviep24]

Kind of off-topic: could someone remind me again what those vertical metal bars are on the end of the mast arm? I see them a lot these days (including that NYS intersection we are talking about).

I think they are weights to stabilize the mast arm. So they don't sway too much in high winds. Those are the only mast arms I know of in my area that have them but they are also the longest.

I believe those are referred to as "traffic signal preemption devices", which are infrared detectors designed to receive preempt signals sent from emergency vehicles.  Some of the old ones looked like whistles mounted on a tube on the end of the masts.  There's a priority system given to the type of preempt signals, as many traffic engineers are unaware that railroad crossing preempt circuits have priority over emergency vehicles.

If you are referring to this then no. The town (Henrietta) where this signal is located does not use emergency vehicle preemption devices. The City of Rochester and Town of Greece do use them and they look like this.

[roadman65]

I was noticing that Hutchinson, KS has a temporary traffic signal that operates only when the KS State Fair is happening in Mid September.  Unlike most event signals, the City of Hutchinson removes the signal heads during the 355 days the Fair is not happening instead of flashing the signal like the FL State Fair on US 301 is during non fair days or many other event signals across the nation.

During the rest of the year, an empty span wire sits diagonally across the intersections of Main & 20th and Main & 23rd.  In fact if you check out GSV, you will see a new span wire assembly is been added since 2016, as previously there was only two signal outlets on the span wires, unlike now with at total of eight on the 23rd Street signal and six on the 20th signal.  Currently there are individual heads on the span wires with two overheads each way and side mounts for the 20th Avenue side signals.  I am guessing that previously they used two four way signal heads before the latest, that would have made those two intersections the only in Kansas to have four way signals as the Sunflower uses normally one way heads due to their use of mast arms.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/51483781372/

[jay8g]

Kind of off-topic: could someone remind me again what those vertical metal bars are on the end of the mast arm? I see them a lot these days (including that NYS intersection we are talking about).

Those are dampers to reduce movement in windy conditions. Here's the manufacturer's page on them.