Metric Clearview Signage on I-19

[corco]

So, I had to go down to Nogales a couple days ago and drove I-19 both directions. Since last time I went down there, 3 new signs have popped up. Pardon the badness of the photos- I wasn't planning on taking pictures and at least the last two involved frantically whipping out the camera as I realized what I was seeing

I-19 north at Valencia

 I-19 south in Green Valley

I-19 south in Tucson

but those were there so I had to get pictures.

I guess that solves the question of what units they're going to use long term?  Or does it?

[Alps]

Oh, good, at least AZ 86 is finally signed at Ajo Way. They still don't know how to sign km properly, though.

[J N Winkler]

I guess that solves the question of what units they're going to use long term?  Or does it?

It is indicative but not conclusive.  The latest information I have (which is not recent) is that Arizona DOT is replacing just exit direction signs in an upcoming I-19 sign refurbishment.  Exit direction signs are typically the last signs placed before an exit and have arrows, unlike advance guide signs, which have distance legends.  In practical terms this means that a decision to stick with the metric signing or change over to English units signing has been postponed.

[corco]

As far as you know, were these signs replacements from a contract or just spot-replacements?

I only have "before" pictures from one of the signs from about a year ago- and while it certainly isn't brand new I have trouble seeing why they'd need an emergency replacement

[J N Winkler]

Corco, I was about to compose a three-line reply to your post when I turned to Google to nail down some details and found myself confronted with an unexpectedly complex entrail-reading exercise.

Here is what I know:

*  The I-19 sign replacement I have been talking about (exit direction signs only, no advance guide signs) has been developed under TRACS number H774101C.

*  The current version of the Tucson District's quarterly flyer references an I-19 Nogales-Tucson Phase 2 sign update with a TRACS number of H750101C and a proposed letting date of December 2011:

http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/Districts/Tucson/PDF/Tucson_District_Quarterly_Flyer.pdf

A casual Google search on this TRACS number, however, turns up ADOT PPAC meeting minutes (dated August 31, 2011) dealing with a proposal to eliminate this contract (valued at $2.2 million), return the funds allocated to the FY 2012 Sign Rehabilitation Fund, and then transfer $2.2 million from said fund to H774101C.

http://www.azdot.gov/MPD/Priority_Programming/PPAC/minutes/PDF/2011/2011_08_31PPACminutes.pdf

H774101C was also supposed to be advertised in December 2011 but if this has happened, it has not been part of the regular construction letting.  A similarly casual Google search on this TRACS suggests that finished plans are on the shelf awaiting construction funding.

BTW, the phrase "Phase 2" in the short title for H750101C is misleading.  It implies that there was a preceding Phase 1 which had gone through design and construction, but to my knowledge this has not occurred.  ADOT however has hundreds if not thousands of ghost TRACS numbers which are kept on hand for allocation to projects when funding becomes available.  H750102C is a ghost TRACS for the mythical Phase 1.

Bottom line:  I-19 sign replacement keeps getting kicked down the road, but the musical-chairs game for funding has ended with H774101C, which I know extends from Nogales to Tucson but will replace exit direction signs only, as the only TRACS likely to be given money for construction.

So the new signs you are seeing are probably spot replacements.  The new bridge-mounted signs have graffiti screens, so I suspect those replacements had to do with graffiti (which interferes with retroreflectivity at night).  It is distantly possible that some I-19 signs are being replaced under a procurement signing contract similar to the big seven in 2010, but I think this is unlikely.  I missed the 2010 contracts at first because they weren't processed through the regular construction letting, but once I had TRACS numbers for some of them, it was easy enough to find evidence that they had been considered for procurement letting.  I have not found anything comparable for any of the signing TRACS numbers associated with I-19.

ADOT also advertises minor resurfacing work on Interstates from time to time.  There was actually one (H836301C) on I-19 fairly recently (bids opened December 9) where the contract description mentions "signs" as a secondary item, but without a list of bid quantities, it is difficult to tell whether these include freeway guide signs.  (In the case of this contract I think that is improbable because it is valued at only $400,000.)

[vdeane]

What are those ugly black things around the signs?

[myosh_tino]

What are those ugly black things around the signs?

They're supposed to deter graffiti.  They are also used in California for the same purpose and look much better than razor wire.


From the AARoads Gallery

[corco]

Corco, I was about to compose a three-line reply to your post when I turned to Google to nail down some details and found myself confronted with an unexpectedly complex entrail-reading exercise.

Here is what I know:

*  The I-19 sign replacement I have been talking about (exit direction signs only, no advance guide signs) has been developed under TRACS number H774101C.

*  The current version of the Tucson District's quarterly flyer references an I-19 Nogales-Tucson Phase 2 sign update with a TRACS number of H750101C and a proposed letting date of December 2011:

http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/Districts/Tucson/PDF/Tucson_District_Quarterly_Flyer.pdf

A casual Google search on this TRACS number, however, turns up ADOT PPAC meeting minutes (dated August 31, 2011) dealing with a proposal to eliminate this contract (valued at $2.2 million), return the funds allocated to the FY 2012 Sign Rehabilitation Fund, and then transfer $2.2 million from said fund to H774101C.

http://www.azdot.gov/MPD/Priority_Programming/PPAC/minutes/PDF/2011/2011_08_31PPACminutes.pdf

H774101C was also supposed to be advertised in December 2011 but if this has happened, it has not been part of the regular construction letting.  A similarly casual Google search on this TRACS suggests that finished plans are on the shelf awaiting construction funding.

BTW, the phrase "Phase 2" in the short title for H750101C is misleading.  It implies that there was a preceding Phase 1 which had gone through design and construction, but to my knowledge this has not occurred.  ADOT however has hundreds if not thousands of ghost TRACS numbers which are kept on hand for allocation to projects when funding becomes available.  H750102C is a ghost TRACS for the mythical Phase 1.

Bottom line:  I-19 sign replacement keeps getting kicked down the road, but the musical-chairs game for funding has ended with H774101C, which I know extends from Nogales to Tucson but will replace exit direction signs only, as the only TRACS likely to be given money for construction.

So the new signs you are seeing are probably spot replacements.  The new bridge-mounted signs have graffiti screens, so I suspect those replacements had to do with graffiti (which interferes with retroreflectivity at night).  It is distantly possible that some I-19 signs are being replaced under a procurement signing contract similar to the big seven in 2010, but I think this is unlikely.  I missed the 2010 contracts at first because they weren't processed through the regular construction letting, but once I had TRACS numbers for some of them, it was easy enough to find evidence that they had been considered for procurement letting.  I have not found anything comparable for any of the signing TRACS numbers associated with I-19.

ADOT also advertises minor resurfacing work on Interstates from time to time.  There was actually one (H836301C) on I-19 fairly recently (bids opened December 9) where the contract description mentions "signs" as a secondary item, but without a list of bid quantities, it is difficult to tell whether these include freeway guide signs.  (In the case of this contract I think that is improbable because it is valued at only $400,000.)

All right- well very cool. Thanks for digging that up!

[agentsteel53]

what shields are patched by 238 and 880?  One is a CA-17, but what is the other?  US-50?  CA-238?  maybe even CA-9?

[J N Winkler]

All right- well very cool. Thanks for digging that up!

You are welcome.

Another possible canary in the mine:  crossroads signs.  In Arizona these are usually part of freeway signing contracts, and on the I-19 corridor they are in metric, like the mainline signs.  So if you see English-units crossroad signs south of the current northern terminus of metric signing (Ajo Way exit, I think), that could be indicative of a continuing plan to convert to English units.

[myosh_tino]

what shields are patched by 238 and 880?  One is a CA-17, but what is the other?  US-50?  CA-238?  maybe even CA-9?

That's not an I-880 shield, it's an I-580 shield and I suspect it covers up nothing.

[TheStranger]

what shields are patched by 238 and 880?  One is a CA-17, but what is the other?

Following up on myosh_tino's answer (that the 580 is probably an add-on patch and NOT a coverup greenout sign)...

I-238 shield probably covers an old state Route 238 sign.  Can't say for sure.

[myosh_tino]

(trying to get back on topic)

One thing I noticed on those new signs was the mixing of Series E and Clearview numerals.  The distances on the three overhead signs for exits 99, 98 and 95 are all Series E but the exit numbers are Clearview.  Is this type of mixing common in Arizona?  I thought I read somewhere here on these boards that Arizona DOT was looking into discarding Clearview numerals all together.

[J N Winkler]

One thing I noticed on those new signs was the mixing of Series E and Clearview numerals.  The distances on the three overhead signs for exits 99, 98 and 95 are all Series E but the exit numbers are Clearview.  Is this type of mixing common in Arizona?  I thought I read somewhere here on these boards that Arizona DOT was looking into discarding Clearview numerals altogether.

I think the mixture is pretty much standard, although I am not aware that Arizona DOT has formalized it by incorporating it into written instructions for sign design.  Here is what I have observed from signing plans:

*  On interchange sequence signs, distance values are usually in Series E Modified.  On route confirmatory (distance) signs, which are not the same as interchange sequence signs despite having superficially the same format, distance values are usually in Clearview.

*  Exit numbers (which are tabbed on all kinds of sign--Arizona DOT doesn't put exit numbers on the main sign panel on supplemental destination signs, like many other states do) are in Clearview.

*  On advance guide signs, the numerical part of the distance expression is usually in Series E Modified.  (This is the rule which is most often broken--for example, the advance guide signs installed as part of the I-17 Anthem Way-Cherry sign update all have Clearview numerals.)

*  On Next X Exits signs, "X" appears in Clearview.

*  On gore signs, the entire legend (including exit number) appears in Clearview.

*  Next Services X Miles signs have "X" in Clearview.

[agentsteel53]

Another possible canary in the mine:  crossroads signs.  In Arizona these are usually part of freeway signing contracts, and on the I-19 corridor they are in metric, like the mainline signs.  So if you see English-units crossroad signs south of the current northern terminus of metric signing (Ajo Way exit, I think), that could be indicative of a continuing plan to convert to English units.

what is a crossroad sign?  when I think of that, I imagine a small sign with just the name of the street being over- or underpassed... but those do not have any length measures.

[J N Winkler]

what is a crossroad sign?  when I think of that, I imagine a small sign with just the name of the street being over- or underpassed... but those do not have any length measures.

A crossroads sign, in this context, is a sign which does not appear on the freeway mainline but is intended to provide service to traffic entering or leaving the freeway.  Crossroads signing, in an Arizona DOT sign update plans set, typically includes all approach road signing (typical messages:  Junction I-10 1 mile;  I-8 Yuma Next Left; I-8 Tucson right arrow) as well as continuity signing (for the benefit of exiting traffic) for places which have been referenced on mainline signs (typical messages:  Mission San Xavier del Bac 3 km; Chiricahua National Monument 36 miles; Tumacacori right arrow).

[agentsteel53]

gotcha; thanks for the explanation!

[Alps]

Going up soon (actually, I could just put it up now, but then I would have even less incentive to do the scenery half of the update), the I-19 signs would typically say "JCT {19} 1 km"

[J N Winkler]

I-19 sign replacement has been advertised:

http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/CNS/phone_sheet.asp

Scroll down to H774101C (warning:  this line item will disappear from the above URL when bids are opened, which is currently scheduled for February 24).  It is tagged as a generic "system preservation" contract but in actuality it is a sign update contract.

BTW, H774801C (also tagged as "system preservation" but on SR 51, with bid opening on February 10) is also a sign update contract.