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Author Topic: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?  (Read 69559 times)

Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #250 on: November 17, 2019, 08:50:46 PM »

You continue to ignore Maryland's failures to help build at least one outer bypass.
You continue to ignore Virginia's failures to construct any improvements to the general purpose lanes south of Woodbridge since the 1980s to mitigate the lack of a bypass.
Not ignoring it, just saying that it wouldn't have to be a hyper-freeway if Maryland had done what they should have done.

Most traffic as I mentioned above is coming from / to Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland, and will have find no benefits of a bypass.
There is plenty of thru traffic on I-95, as around Ladysmith and Carmel Church there is very little local traffic on I-95 and the AADT doesn't drop below 100,000 AADT.

Thru traffic in this case is anything passing the Richmond-Baltimore, Richmond-Annapolis, Richmond-Frederick cordon lines.  Doesn't have to be Maine to Florida.

the main route in/out needs to be expanded into a megafreeway with a 3+3 carriageway to accommodate that regional movement.
Can't be done as pointed out many times, I-95 is fully built out in the Newington / Springfield area and there is no room for 12 GP lanes and 3 HOT lanes on 5 separate roadways.

I am complaining that Maryland didn't build at least one back when was much easier to afford.
You can complain all day long about the past, but that's behind us.
No it is not "behind us," Maryland needs to be planning now, and there needs to be a joint EIS/location study to study alternates and determine projected traffic volumes for the several routes.

Maryland needs to start this study NOW.

We need to look towards the future, and right now, the most feasible option to relieving congestion and benefiting the most amount of people would be a 3+3 setup.
Baloney, any way you slice it.

It doesn't matter what it's funding, it's just the amount, the cost it's funding - which is $2 billion. An I-95 expansion that costs $5 - $6 billion could be funded in a similar manner generally, if it was pursued. You've mentioned in the past that the special tax district and fees increased funding I-81 should be extended in the future for a Phase 2 to widen all 325 miles of I-81 to 6 lanes. You're talking at least $10 billion there. The same idea here with I-95.
It won't be fundable without least 50% bond funding.

I-81 with its limited work with $2.2 billion will stretch to about 2032 with only pay-go.

Two scheduling options presented 
• Existing revenue stream (pay-go) -- 48 out of 64 projects completed by 2028
• Bonding/TIFIA option -- 60 out of 64 projects completed by 2028

http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2019/oct/pres/2.i_81.pdf

I wish that money grew on trees but unfortunately it doesn't! :-(
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #251 on: November 17, 2019, 09:21:35 PM »

Even if the traffic on I-95 there was all through traffic having nothing to do with the DC area, states don't regularly undertake significant expense to solve issues in other states.  There's a reason why the interstate system was built through top-down federal planning of the type that hasn't been seen since Nixon.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #252 on: November 17, 2019, 09:30:41 PM »

There is plenty of thru traffic on I-95, as around Ladysmith and Carmel Church there is very little local traffic on I-95 and the AADT doesn't drop below 100,000 AADT.
Take a good hard look at what I posted. Most traffic is coming to / from Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland and will find no benefits of a bypass.

For example, a vast majority of that 100,000 AADT you see at Ladysmith is coming from Richmond, Hampton Roads, and points south and is destined to Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland and will not benefit from a bypass. They are still dumping into the Northern Virginia metro. What they would benefit significantly from is having a set of 3 express thru lanes each way with limited access points at major junctions starting at Fredericksburg, where the southern terminus of such lanes is being built moving them free flow all the way into Northern Virginia.

Can't be done as pointed out many times, I-95 is fully built out in the Newington / Springfield area and there is no room for 12 GP lanes and 3 HOT lanes on 5 separate roadways.
Hasn’t stopped the I-495 Express Lanes project, notably the ones coming up in Southern Maryland.

It won't be fundable without least 50% bond funding.
Which would be repaid by the tax money flowing in annually.

How do you propose we fund Maryland’s (even though it’s 50% or more Virginia’s as well, but they’re off the hook for everything) outer bypass? $20+ tolls? It would definitely benefit the small percentage of thru traffic once such a massive undertaking is completed after decades of planning, design and construction work, but the vast majority of people would still be stuck on traffic on I-95, which only gets worse as every year goes by, as rapid growth in Fredericksburg / Stafford continues. 3 lanes of traffic each way cannot adequately handle 130,000 - 200,000 AADT any way you slice it. Virginia has failed for years fixing it, and continues to fail and now is pretty much a laughing livestock as they just recently claimed more lanes will not solve problems and will not study it - which makes me wonder what makes you think Virginia will participate in a bypass study in todays environment? They’ll probably just claim compensation events and dismiss any talk of it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:38:11 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #253 on: November 17, 2019, 10:04:47 PM »

There is plenty of thru traffic on I-95, as around Ladysmith and Carmel Church there is very little local traffic on I-95 and the AADT doesn't drop below 100,000 AADT.
Take a good hard look at what I posted.
Why?  You post little that I have not seen before.

Most traffic is coming to / from Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland and will find no benefits of a bypass.
For example, a vast majority of that 100,000 AADT you see at Ladysmith is coming from Richmond, Hampton Roads, and points south and is destined to Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland and will not benefit from a bypass.
How do you know that?  Can you cite the traffic engineering data that is in the EIS/location study that was recently completed for Washington Bypasses?

They are still dumping into the Northern Virginia metro. What they would benefit significantly from is having a set of 3 express thru lanes each way with limited access points at major junctions starting at Fredericksburg, where the southern terminus of such lanes is being built moving them free flow all the way into Northern Virginia.
… the traffic engineering studies? 

Traffic on that segment goes to/from NoVA, D.C., Montgomery County, Prince Georges County, Frederick County, Anne Arundel County, other Maryland counties, Baltimore, MD Eastern Shore; just to name origins/destinations in central Maryland.

Most of those places would be equally or better served by an eastern or western bypass, and would not have to use I-495.

Can't be done as pointed out many times, I-95 is fully built out in the Newington / Springfield area and there is no room for 12 GP lanes and 3 HOT lanes on 5 separate roadways.
Hasn’t stopped the I-495 Express Lanes project, notably the ones coming up in Southern Maryland.
The I-495 project had minimal right-of way impacts and was 11 miles.  Nothing has been designed yet in Southern Maryland.

It won't be fundable without least 50% bond funding.
Which would be repaid by the tax money flowing in annually.

I was just joking when I mentioned the tree! :-)

How do you propose we fund Maryland’s (even though it’s 50% or more Virginia’s as well, but they’re off the hook for everything) outer bypass?
First things first.  Conduct an NEPA EIS/location study to produce a DEIS, hold public hearings, produce FEIS, with detailed traffic engineering data to see exactly what would happen.
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Rothman

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #254 on: November 17, 2019, 10:12:03 PM »

Nope.  Northern VA is worse.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #255 on: November 17, 2019, 10:27:47 PM »

How do you know that?  Can you cite the traffic engineering data that is in the EIS/location study that was recently completed for Washington Bypasses?

… the traffic engineering studies?


Quote from: Washington Bypass from I-95 in Virginia to I-70 and U.S. 50 in Maryland - Draft First Tier Environmental Impact Statement - 1990, Page S-10
One of the most positive benefits of a Washington Bypass is that it is projected to divert through-autos and through-trucks from I-95 and the Capital Beltway. An Eastern Bypass would serve up to 28,000 through-trips per day. A Western Bypass would serve up to 12,000 through trips.

Quote from: Washington Bypass from I-95 in Virginia to I-70 and U.S. 50 in Maryland - Draft First Tier Environmental Impact Statement - 1990, Page 4-14
Between VA 207 at Camel Church and VA 234 in Dumfries, the projected reduction is 20,000 to 25,000 vehicles per day. Between VA 234 and I-495, commuter traffic and traffic on parallel facilities begin to "fill up" the unused capacity created by diverted through trips. At the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, a reduction of 17,000 vehicles per day is projected. This alternative is also projected to reduce traffic from the I-95 segment of the Capital Beltway between MD 4 and U.S. 50 by approximately 15,000 vehicles per day
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:38:03 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #256 on: November 17, 2019, 10:28:50 PM »

^ That's also effectively 30 years old at this point, so those numbers are going to be a bit off now.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #257 on: November 17, 2019, 10:31:08 PM »

Nope.  Northern VA is worse.
Than the Long Island issues?  Far worse than anything else in the country.  Like I said it is near infeasible to travel to and from there with any regularity, and suburban LI has 3 million population.

Albany and NYSDOT need to work on fixing their own problems and stop pointing fingers at others.

It's like someone that weighs 300 pounds going around calling other people "fatso," "porky," "jelly belly," etc., rather than going to a Weight Watchers meeting and work on themselves.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #258 on: November 17, 2019, 10:32:30 PM »

^ That's also effectively 30 years old at this point, so those numbers are going to be a bit off now.

Yeah, harrumph... hasn't metro population about doubled since then?
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:34:55 PM by Beltway »
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #259 on: November 17, 2019, 10:39:51 PM »

^ That's also effectively 30 years old at this point, so those numbers are going to be a bit off now.
Fair point, the numbers have gone way up on I-95, and the reduction would have be at least tripled if not more what was predicted then to have any real impact on relieving I-95 congestion, which is highly unlikely.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #260 on: November 17, 2019, 10:40:46 PM »

Nope.  Northern VA is worse.
Than the Long Island issues?  Far worse than anything else in the country.  Like I said it is near infeasible to travel to and from there with any regularity, and suburban LI has 3 million population.

Albany and NYSDOT need to work on fixing their own problems and stop pointing fingers at others.

It's like someone that weighs 300 pounds going around calling other people "fatso," "porky," "jelly belly," etc., rather than going to a Weight Watchers meeting and work on themselves.
Almost reminds me of pointing fingers at Maryland for not solving Virginia's traffic problems between Richmond and Northern Virginia, which fully exists in the state of Virginia.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:43:17 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #261 on: November 18, 2019, 12:08:24 AM »

It's like someone that weighs 300 pounds going around calling other people "fatso," "porky," "jelly belly," etc., rather than going to a Weight Watchers meeting and work on themselves.
Almost reminds me of pointing fingers at Maryland for not solving Virginia's traffic problems between Richmond and Northern Virginia, which fully exists in the state of Virginia.
I am not the one who started the cycle of pointing fingers at other states.

OTOH, New York's highway network does not interface with that of Virginia or Maryland.

Virginia and Maryland's networks do directly interface.  What if one of them decided not to build their portion of I-495?  Or refused to coordinate on Potomac River bridge locations? 

What if Maryland refused to build I-95 between Baltimore and Washington?  Would Virginia not have just cause to criticize that decision?  It would impact some of their travels.

Any one of these routes would assist in the routing of traffic in and though the Washington region.
1. Western outer
2. Western inner
3. Eastern outer
4. Eastern inner
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #262 on: November 18, 2019, 12:54:32 AM »

Even if the traffic on I-95 there was all through traffic having nothing to do with the DC area, states don't regularly undertake significant expense to solve issues in other states.  There's a reason why the interstate system was built through top-down federal planning of the type that hasn't been seen since Nixon.
States with common borders can work together to solve issues, even outside of the Interstate system.  These issues can impact both states.

Like with the Delaware River bridge and NJTP.  Like with the Garden State Parkway and the pre-Interstate highway that became NY I-287.  Outer bypasses of NYC and Philadelphia.

I used to live a mile from Maryland in Alexandria VA, and Maryland's highway issues certainly did impact me.
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #263 on: November 18, 2019, 07:03:09 AM »

Someone remind me never to invite these guys to my house. I’d like my LPs and 45s to remain in one piece.

:bigass:
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #264 on: November 18, 2019, 08:29:19 AM »

Even if the traffic on I-95 there was all through traffic having nothing to do with the DC area, states don't regularly undertake significant expense to solve issues in other states.  There's a reason why the interstate system was built through top-down federal planning of the type that hasn't been seen since Nixon.
States with common borders can work together to solve issues, even outside of the Interstate system.  These issues can impact both states.

Like with the Delaware River bridge and NJTP.  Like with the Garden State Parkway and the pre-Interstate highway that became NY I-287.  Outer bypasses of NYC and Philadelphia.

I used to live a mile from Maryland in Alexandria VA, and Maryland's highway issues certainly did impact me.

You know you're providing an example of FAILED examples of working together.

I-95 in NJ was cancelled in NJ.  It took 37 years before 2 out of the 8 ramps connecting 95 and the PA Turnpike were built.

When the NJ Turnpike was widened, it was done to be in coordination with that above project.  PA took 4 additional years to complete 25% of their project.

The GSP was mainly a proposed NJ route that wasn't getting built due to lack of funds until a toll authority was created to finance bonds.

You're kinda recreating history here.  And your examples really aren't great ones, as most of them involved decades of delays and financial hardship!
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #265 on: November 18, 2019, 10:13:52 AM »

States with common borders can work together to solve issues, even outside of the Interstate system.  These issues can impact both states.
Like with the Delaware River bridge and NJTP.  Like with the Garden State Parkway and the pre-Interstate highway that became NY I-287.  Outer bypasses of NYC and Philadelphia.
You know you're providing an example of FAILED examples of working together.
How are they failed?

The Philadelphia / SE PA bypass was completed in 1951, along with the rest of the NJTP.  The NYC outer bypass was completed in the 1960s, albeit the GSP doesn't allow trucks.

What would those areas look like if those hadn't been built?

I-95 in NJ was cancelled in NJ.  It took 37 years before 2 out of the 8 ramps connecting 95 and the PA Turnpike were built.
When the NJ Turnpike was widened, it was done to be in coordination with that above project.  PA took 4 additional years to complete 25% of their project.
I am well aware of those items, those were problems, but they did get them done.  The rest of NJ I-287 got built as well, after environmental issues were resolved.

The GSP was mainly a proposed NJ route that wasn't getting built due to lack of funds until a toll authority was created to finance bonds.
Toll revenue bonds!  They have gotten a lot accomplished over the years.

You're kinda recreating history here.  And your examples really aren't great ones, as most of them involved decades of delays and financial hardship!
True, but they got them done.  It is shameful and disgusting that at least one of the outer Washington bypasses is not complete.
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #266 on: November 18, 2019, 04:36:03 PM »

Virginia and Maryland's networks do directly interface.  What if one of them decided not to build their portion of I-495?  Or refused to coordinate on Potomac River bridge locations? 

What if Maryland refused to build I-95 between Baltimore and Washington?  Would Virginia not have just cause to criticize that decision?  It would impact some of their travels.
I-95 between Baltimore and Washington is MARYLAND's problem. I-495 in Maryland is MARYLAND's problem.

I-95 between DC and Richmond is solely in Virginia and is VIRGINIA's problem.
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #267 on: November 18, 2019, 07:17:26 PM »

Virginia and Maryland's networks do directly interface.  What if one of them decided not to build their portion of I-495?  Or refused to coordinate on Potomac River bridge locations? 

What if Maryland refused to build I-95 between Baltimore and Washington?  Would Virginia not have just cause to criticize that decision?  It would impact some of their travels.
I-95 between Baltimore and Washington is MARYLAND's problem. I-495 in Maryland is MARYLAND's problem.

I-95 between DC and Richmond is solely in Virginia and is VIRGINIA's problem.
No, because building capacity on one directly affects traffic on the other

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #268 on: November 18, 2019, 08:31:08 PM »

Virginia and Maryland's networks do directly interface.  What if one of them decided not to build their portion of I-495?  Or refused to coordinate on Potomac River bridge locations? 

What if Maryland refused to build I-95 between Baltimore and Washington?  Would Virginia not have just cause to criticize that decision?  It would impact some of their travels.
I-95 between Baltimore and Washington is MARYLAND's problem. I-495 in Maryland is MARYLAND's problem.

I-95 between DC and Richmond is solely in Virginia and is VIRGINIA's problem.
No, because building capacity on one directly affects traffic on the other
How does Maryland building a bypass for the small percentage of thru traffic benefit the majority of traffic which is destined to Northern Virginia / DC?
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #269 on: November 18, 2019, 09:07:42 PM »

Virginia and Maryland's networks do directly interface.  What if one of them decided not to build their portion of I-495?  Or refused to coordinate on Potomac River bridge locations? 
What if Maryland refused to build I-95 between Baltimore and Washington?  Would Virginia not have just cause to criticize that decision?  It would impact some of their travels.
I-95 between Baltimore and Washington is MARYLAND's problem. I-495 in Maryland is MARYLAND's problem.
I-95 between DC and Richmond is solely in Virginia and is VIRGINIA's problem.
No, because building capacity on one directly affects traffic on the other
How does Maryland building a bypass for the small percentage of thru traffic benefit the majority of traffic which is destined to Northern Virginia / DC?
We need the results of a traffic engineering study in a -current- EIS/location study, before we can state any details of percentages of where traffic is originating and destining.

There is plenty of I-95 traffic that is -regional- and not necessarily -thru-, and of course it depends on how you define "thru."

Traffic on that VA I-95 segment goes to/from NoVA, D.C., Montgomery County, Prince Georges County, Frederick County, Anne Arundel County, other Maryland counties, Baltimore, MD Eastern Shore; just to name origins/destinations in central Maryland.

If I lived in D.C.-suburban Maryland and worked in NoVA, I most definitely would care about that highway, and have the option to bypass it if there was a well placed bypass.
 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 09:10:57 PM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #270 on: November 19, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »

Nope.  Northern VA is worse.
Than the Long Island issues?  Far worse than anything else in the country.  Like I said it is near infeasible to travel to and from there with any regularity, and suburban LI has 3 million population.

Albany and NYSDOT need to work on fixing their own problems and stop pointing fingers at others.

It's like someone that weighs 300 pounds going around calling other people "fatso," "porky," "jelly belly," etc., rather than going to a Weight Watchers meeting and work on themselves.
Albany and NYSDOT aren't pointing fingers.   I am.

However, you feeling ashamed and defensive about that catastrophe of a road is totally understandable. :D
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #271 on: November 19, 2019, 12:49:00 PM »

Virginia and Maryland's networks do directly interface.  What if one of them decided not to build their portion of I-495?  Or refused to coordinate on Potomac River bridge locations? 

What if Maryland refused to build I-95 between Baltimore and Washington?  Would Virginia not have just cause to criticize that decision?  It would impact some of their travels.
I-95 between Baltimore and Washington is MARYLAND's problem. I-495 in Maryland is MARYLAND's problem.

I-95 between DC and Richmond is solely in Virginia and is VIRGINIA's problem.
No, because building capacity on one directly affects traffic on the other

In theory, that's how it should work.

In the Philly/South Jersey area, with the DVRPC, I don't think I've ever recalled them discussing any road project in one state and its effects in the other state.  The only time they seem concerned about inter-state interconnectivity is when they're discussing biking and walking trails...and mostly just to encourage the other state to force them to continue the trail.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #272 on: November 19, 2019, 02:23:25 PM »

Nope.  Northern VA is worse.
Than the Long Island issues?  Far worse than anything else in the country.  Like I said it is near infeasible to travel to and from there with any regularity, and suburban LI has 3 million population.
Albany and NYSDOT need to work on fixing their own problems and stop pointing fingers at others.
It's like someone that weighs 300 pounds going around calling other people "fatso," "porky," "jelly belly," etc., rather than going to a Weight Watchers meeting and work on themselves.
Albany and NYSDOT aren't pointing fingers.   I am.
However, you feeling ashamed and defensive about that catastrophe of a road is totally understandable. :D
You are the face of Albany and NYSDOT here.

Your ignoring and deflecting about the highway catastrophes of Long Island access, CBX-TME-NET, BQE, and city LIE is totally understandable, based on your posting history.  You should be embarrassed.
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Rothman

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #273 on: November 19, 2019, 05:46:51 PM »

As my signature states quite clearly, along with the general disclaimer on the site, my opinions are my own.

I accept that those roads you mention are congested.  They just aren't as bad as I-95 in Northern VA.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #274 on: November 19, 2019, 05:58:41 PM »

Nope.  Northern VA is worse.
Than the Long Island issues?  Far worse than anything else in the country.  Like I said it is near infeasible to travel to and from there with any regularity, and suburban LI has 3 million population.
Albany and NYSDOT need to work on fixing their own problems and stop pointing fingers at others.
It's like someone that weighs 300 pounds going around calling other people "fatso," "porky," "jelly belly," etc., rather than going to a Weight Watchers meeting and work on themselves.
Albany and NYSDOT aren't pointing fingers.   I am.
However, you feeling ashamed and defensive about that catastrophe of a road is totally understandable. :D
You are the face of Albany and NYSDOT here.

Your ignoring and deflecting about the highway catastrophes of Long Island access, CBX-TME-NET, BQE, and city LIE is totally understandable, based on your posting history.  You should be embarrassed.
Didn't you work for VDOT a few years back? You seem to have no issues with the massive bottleneck I-95 is, even citing a few posts ago it's "only 10-15 minute delay" despite it being at least triple that, and even the VMS's have agreed despite what you claim. I've frequently seen estimated travel times at 45 - 55 minutes for a 15 mile trip. VDOT has failed to perform any improvements to the general purpose lanes south of Woodbridge for 40 years now, and continue to refuse to even study them, and all you've seem to have done is continuously point figures at Maryland, ignoring the fact the issue is primarily in Virginia, and Virginia is the one who needs to begin studying improvements to I-95, especially if Maryland won't play. Transurban's privatized lanes have been implemented, it hasn't done much to fix the issues, now it's time VDOT takes the plate and gets working. But they won't. I don't even think at this point Virginia would be interested in studying a bypass. They would probably just claim "compensation events" and suspend any further studying. They had no issues doing that with previously proposed 8-lane widening (proposed after Transurban's lanes were built, if it was before they were built it likely would've been seriously evaluated and had a full-blown study completed, like the segment north of VA-123 was and built) down to at least VA-234.

I-95 in Northern Virginia is easily one of the most, or the most congested highways on the East Coast, and that says a lot. The fact it's still only 6 lanes (3 each way) when there's plenty of room to expand it to 8 or more also says a lot about the state's incompetence. It's not like it's in a narrow corridor like many of New York's highways you repeatable cite that have little or no room to be expanded. There's plenty of room for at least 2 lanes added each way without major right of way impacts, and even more just beyond Woodbridge - it's a rural 65 mph highway design down there with wide rights of way, and a very large median in areas.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 06:12:15 PM by sprjus4 »
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