City Freeway Teardowns: More on Their Way?

[Revive 755]

Interview with Norquist:
http://americancity.org/buzz/entry/3410/

Little causal oversimplification with Detroit there?

[machias]

There's been talk of removing portions of I-81 through downtown Syracuse and rerouting I-81 over I-481. Many feel that I-81 through Syracuse has split the city in half and the western side of the elevated freeway has suffered because of it. I don't think there's been as much talk over the past couple of months though, perhaps because I-81 was shut down due to a train derailment (on an adjacent railroad) and downtown was a mess, especially with traffic trying to get to an SU football game at the Carrier Dome.

[Brandon]

Interview with Norquist:
http://americancity.org/buzz/entry/3410/

Little causal oversimplification with Detroit there?

Oversimplification?  The man just proved he is a complete idiot.  Detroit's problems have very little to do with the freeways, and lot to do with civic leadership that failed (Young, Kilpatrick, etc), the 1967 riot, economics of the automobile industry, gangs, and drugs.  His "analysis" doesn't explain why workplaces have moved out of town.

[Henry]

After what happened with Hurricane Katrina, I'll go out on a limb and say that the long-discussed proposal to remove part of I-10 in New Orleans (along Claiborne Avenue) is likely gaining traction by now.

[Anthony_JK]

What happened with Katrina???  NOTHING happened...it was the levees failing in the Ninth Ward that caused the majority of the damage and destruction.  In fact, without the Claiborne Elevated, evacuating those people would have been complicated by a magnitude.

There is siimply NO justification for removing the Claiborne Elevated....especially when other means of redeveloping the Treme neighborhood while keeping the structure are available. This is just Norquist spouting his "kill the freeways" nonsense.

And, he better not bring his butt anywhere near Shreveport or Lafayette, either.


Anthony

[Mergingtraffic]

I think what happens here with these freeway teardown incidents is that people think if the freeway is removed the traffic will be gone too.  Well, the traffic is here and it has to go somewhere.  The traffic isn't going anywhere.  Wasn't that the reason the freeways were built to begin with because traffic on local streets was unbearable.  People have convenient memories.

[NE2]

Wasn't that the reason the freeways were built to begin with because traffic on local streets was unbearable.

Unbearable for motorists, maybe. Unbearable for inner-city residents? Probably not.

Anyway, most traffic would go to I-610. Duh.

[SSOWorld]

Just read a similar story over the weekend on this subject.  Apologies if it was posted earlier in this thread.

http://grist.org/infrastructure/off-ramp-how-demolishing-freeways-is-reviving-american-cities/

If one would have visited the section which had the freeway torn down, it doesn't look any better - no one's buying up that real-estate.

Norquist is a guy who doesn't give a damn whether there is a need for roads or not.  He thinks transit will solve all the problems - yet he does not realize that old habits die hard.

[Anthony_JK]

Wasn't that the reason the freeways were built to begin with because traffic on local streets was unbearable.

Unbearable for motorists, maybe. Unbearable for inner-city residents? Probably not.

Anyway, most traffic would go to I-610. Duh.

Does that include most traffic going to downtown NOLA or the French Quarter or the Superdome?? Or..traffic from Algiers or the  Westbank going eastbound??

That traffic isn't going anywhere but on the surface streets...and no light rail will mitigate that.


Anthony

[NE2]

Does that include most traffic going to downtown NOLA or the French Quarter or the Superdome?? Or..traffic from Algiers or the  Westbank going eastbound??

Yes. That traffic can also use I-610. Trucks would probably be required to, while cars could use surface streets or I-610 depending on traffic. Or if you're actually going downtown, you could perhaps park at the fairgrounds and transfer to a streetcar extension.

[froggie]

There is siimply NO justification for removing the Claiborne Elevated....especially when other means of redeveloping the Treme neighborhood while keeping the structure are available. This is just Norquist spouting his "kill the freeways" nonsense.

On this one, I would disagree with you.  Building I-10 over Claiborne completely ruined that section of town...long before Katrina came and ruined the rest of town.

And in this case, there is a workaround.  It would require redoing both of the I-10/610 junctions and the movements between 10 West and the Westbank, but it's technically feasible.

He thinks transit will solve all the problems - yet he does not realize that old habits die hard.

But they're dying.  Slowly.  High gas prices and changing demographics have a part in that.

[mgk920]

Just read a similar story over the weekend on this subject.  Apologies if it was posted earlier in this thread.

http://grist.org/infrastructure/off-ramp-how-demolishing-freeways-is-reviving-american-cities/

If one would have visited the section which had the freeway torn down, it doesn't look any better - no one's buying up that real-estate.

Norquist is a guy who doesn't give a damn whether there is a need for roads or not.  He thinks transit will solve all the problems - yet he does not realize that old habits die hard.

One of the big problems in the Milwaukee (Park East) case is that the ultra-PC local government powers-that-be placed such onerous 'SOCIAL JUSTICE!!!  ' restrictions on the land that it is uneconomical for anyone to try to develop it.  Thankfully, there is a strong push to relax things with regards to that.

Also, as for New Orleans, I agree that it is imperative for city accesses that are entirely above sea level to be maintained.  Without them, emergency services are much more problematic.

Mike

[vdeane]

I-10 and I-610 should probably be swapped regardless.  But the transit people rely on the induced demand narrative to justify everything.  Here's the fact: most induced demand is just unhappy people giving up on trips because the traffic is too bad.

Most of the change is from young urbanists who want to live in a big city so they can pretend they're still in college.  It will shift back when these people grow up, move to the suburbs, start families, and realize that they need cars.  You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.  You can't ferry the kids to their bazillion activities.  And you probably won't be able to go to work either, as the larger housing is out in the suburbs.

[Henry]

I-10 and I-610 should probably be swapped regardless.  But the transit people rely on the induced demand narrative to justify everything.  Here's the fact: most induced demand is just unhappy people giving up on trips because the traffic is too bad.

Most of the change is from young urbanists who want to live in a big city so they can pretend they're still in college.  It will shift back when these people grow up, move to the suburbs, start families, and realize that they need cars.  You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.  You can't ferry the kids to their bazillion activities.  And you probably won't be able to go to work either, as the larger housing is out in the suburbs.

Good argument there. But in the scenario where the Claiborne section is removed, I-10 would most likely take over I-610.

[froggie]

But the transit people rely on the induced demand narrative to justify everything.  Here's the fact: most induced demand is just unhappy people giving up on trips because the traffic is too bad.

Partly the case, but not fully.  It's been documented numerous times that when you reduce highway capacity on a long-term scale, some of the traffic shifts to other times, some shifts to other routes.  Yes, a percentage of it will go away, but it's not "most" as you suggest.

You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.

I'm calling shenanigans on this one.  A decent cargo bike will cover this (without having to go to the store every day), plus I've personally biked with grocery bags in my hands.

You can't ferry the kids to their bazillion activities.

Not true.  I know several folks in DC that ferry their kids via bike.

And you probably won't be able to go to work either, as the larger housing is out in the suburbs.

A) not all the larger housing is in the burbs.
B) the ongoing trend for decades in this country has been smaller households.  Smaller households = you don't need as much space.
C) these people are also living in the city because they're working in the city, so there are plenty of ways to get to work.

During the 7 weeks I was recently at the Pentagon, I car-commuted all of twice.  Biked about half the time.  And as a result, I only had to fill the gas tank once (most of that usage from when my other half was down for a week).

[cpzilliacus]

But the transit people rely on the induced demand narrative to justify everything.  Here's the fact: most induced demand is just unhappy people giving up on trips because the traffic is too bad.

Partly the case, but not fully.  It's been documented numerous times that when you reduce highway capacity on a long-term scale, some of the traffic shifts to other times, some shifts to other routes.  Yes, a percentage of it will go away, but it's not "most" as you suggest.

Much of what is called "induced" demand for highway capacity is more-properly called latent demand, especially when  roads are severely congested.

And some persons and groups that loudly objected to the construction (or even the study) of the InterCounty Connector are now harrumphing about the (supposed) lack of traffic on the toll road, even though they cited "induced" demand (ad nauseum) as a reason not to build it. 

You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.

I'm calling shenanigans on this one.  A decent cargo bike will cover this (without having to go to the store every day), plus I've personally biked with grocery bags in my hands.

That depends on where people live, how they live and many other factors. I certainly believe you  can get along just fine with a bike, but other people cannot.

You can't ferry the kids to their bazillion activities.

Not true.  I know several folks in DC that ferry their kids via bike.

It depends on what the kids are doing and where they are doing it.

And you probably won't be able to go to work either, as the larger housing is out in the suburbs.

A) not all the larger housing is in the burbs.

Absolutely correct.

B) the ongoing trend for decades in this country has been smaller households.  Smaller households = you don't need as much space.

Though not everyone wants (or needs) to downsize.

C) these people are also living in the city because they're working in the city, so there are plenty of ways to get to work.

During the 7 weeks I was recently at the Pentagon, I car-commuted all of twice.  Biked about half the time.  And as a result, I only had to fill the gas tank once (most of that usage from when my other half was down for a week).

The Department of Defense, in spite of the apparently large parking lots around the Pentagon, has long encouraged (with sticks and with carrots) its workforce to use modes of transportation other than the single-occupant vehicle.  The Pentagon also enjoys its very own Metrorail station and what may be the largest transit bus station in the Washington metropolitan area and the Commonwealth of Virginia.

[lamsalfl]

Also, as for New Orleans, I agree that it is imperative for city accesses that are entirely above sea level to be maintained.  Without them, emergency services are much more problematic.

Mike

Know your facts before you speak.  The entire city is NOT below sea level, only about half.  But, I'm sure in Wisconsin you got your information from the mainstream media which loves to sensationalize things, accuracy be damned.  Studies have shown only 17% of the traffic on the proposed tear down section (Superdome to St. Bernard Ave.) is thru-traffic heading to the east.  The French Quarter and Downtown area had NO FLOODING after Katrina...a 500 year storm..., so emergency services are not a reason to keep this awful structure. 

[brownpelican]

The Quarter didn't flood, but parts of downtown did get about a foot of water....especially on Canal St. and the area around North Claiborne.

I will go on record and also say there's no justification for taking down I-10 in the North Claiborne median.

[Brandon]

You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.

I'm calling shenanigans on this one.  A decent cargo bike will cover this (without having to go to the store every day), plus I've personally biked with grocery bags in my hands.

Now try a 40 pound bag of cat litter with cans and groceries (two bags with a gallon of milk).  Cargo bikes won't do it.

[agentsteel53]

Now try a 40 pound bag of cat litter with cans and groceries (two bags with a gallon of milk).  Cargo bikes won't do it.

that is a sign of Bicycle Jesus telling you to toilet-train your cat.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.

I'm calling shenanigans on this one.  A decent cargo bike will cover this (without having to go to the store every day), plus I've personally biked with grocery bags in my hands.

Now try a 40 pound bag of cat litter with cans and groceries (two bags with a gallon of milk).  Cargo bikes won't do it.

Try that they know they have a cargo bike and won't try carry all your suggestions at once, in the first place.

[realjd]

Now try a 40 pound bag of cat litter with cans and groceries (two bags with a gallon of milk).  Cargo bikes won't do it.

A cargo bike isn't just a bike with a milk basket strapped on. Go GIS it. They're more than capable of carrying that load.

More realistically, the people I know who do this regularly have small cargo trailers they hook up to their regular bikes.

[MrDisco99]

Now try a 40 pound bag of cat litter with cans and groceries (two bags with a gallon of milk).  Cargo bikes won't do it.

that is a sign of Bicycle Jesus telling you to toilet-train your cat.

Bicycle Jesus says...



Plan your grocery trips carefully!  Elevated highways are the devil's work!

[vdeane]

Do you think my perceptions are skewed by spending my entire life in Rochester?  Rochester effectively ceased to exist as in independent city when Kodak downsized and today is essentially dead; it's pretty much all wealthier people in older homes commuting to the suburbs and gang-infested slums.  Most people commute suburb-to-suburb.  However, our bus system (only form of mass transit) still goes to/from downtown because "not enough people ride it to change the route" (if not enough people are riding it, doesn't that mean the routes need to be changed?).

[kkt]

You can't take home enough groceries to feed a family without a car, even if you go to the store every day.

I'm calling shenanigans on this one.  A decent cargo bike will cover this (without having to go to the store every day), plus I've personally biked with grocery bags in my hands.

Now try a 40 pound bag of cat litter with cans and groceries (two bags with a gallon of milk).  Cargo bikes won't do it.

It can be done.  You need to plan your trips and accept somewhat less convenience in your life.  When I was little, some of the time we had no car and my mom would often be bicycling with me on the back of her seat and two bags of groceries in a basket on the front.  (We didn't have a cat...)  Buy groceries every day or two; that also gets you fresher produce.  Once at least one of the children is old enough to bicycle on their own with a basket of groceries on their bike, it gets easier.  Think of all the time you don't have to spend on the stationary bike at the gym 

Also, back then, some grocery stores delivered, and in cities there was likely to be a small grocery store every couple of blocks.

I'm not arguing for tearing down any particular urban freeway, only pointing out that cars are not the only possible way to run a city.