Great Setup by NY DOT

[highwayroads]

I was travelling in New York a few weeks ago heading West on I-90 on the Berkshire Connector towards Buffalo. About 2 miles before the I-90 West / I-87 North interchange, there are large permanent signs that state to stay in the left lane to continue on I-90 West. Ok, you would think that's simple. Keep driving ahead, about a mile to half a mile before the split, there are construction signs saying left lane closed ahead. Common sense, I move over to the right lane thinking that at the split you can veer left. Well, when you finally got to the split, you were stuck in the lane that you were in and I had to get on I-87 North.

You would think that New York DOT could do a better job communicating exactly where the lane closing was going to be? A sign would have been nice saying left lane closed ahead, can still access I-90 West before the closure.

[KEVIN_224]

Was there anything about the construction on I-90 after the Massachusetts border, before the Berkshire Spur exit?

[highwayroads]

No signs what so ever. Like I said, these permanent signs I would have to say are probably in Coeymans on 90, they say to keep left for Buffalo (I-90 West) and keep right for Montreal (I-87 North). But they were or are still in the process of a construction project, and there were signs stating the left lane was closed ahead. Right then, when you made the switch, you were dedicated to those lanes. No chance of switching at the split. Had to get off onto 87 which is a nightmare with all of toll lanes expanding and merging back together and get back on 90.

Unique system that New York has. You would think that Mile 0 of I-87 would be in New York City and Mile 333 of I-87 would be Champlain. Nope. Mile Markers are based on the actual highway name. Mile Markers pertain to the New York Thruway or the Northway. I-87 Mile 0 is in New York City and the miles continue to Mile 134 at the Interstate 90 interchange and continue west on the thruway to Ripley at Mile 496. To recap, IT STARTS AT I-87 AND ENDS AT I-90. At the Northway split, they reset going north.

I shook my head the first time I took the Thruway from Massachusetts. I can't believe how many splits there are, and how many different ways you can take but end up on the same road. It's a toll scam. If your on the Berkshire Connector and hit the toll booth in Canaan, you never hit another one again if you stay on I-90 West to I-87 to I-90 West continuously the Thruway. Once you get off at that advertised I-90, it is a runaround.
Hey any idea what 61 is? Some exit in Albany is 25-61.

[machias]

The signs you are referring were installed by the New York State Thruway Authority, not NYSDOT.

The signs that say "Buffalo KEEP LEFT" have bugged me for years. They should say "Thruway Follow I-90 WEST / Buffalo" or something like that. There is no reason to get into the left lane miles in advance of the interchange at Exit 24.  It's just an engineer at the Thruway Authority doing poorly at their job.

"Exit 24-61" actually refers to Exits 24-61.  Exit 61 is for Shortmann Rd. in Ripley and it's close enough to the western Pa. line to have the eastbound advance guide panel installed by PennDOT.

The milemarkers on the Thruway system pre-date the Interstate system, that's why they're marked separately. While I agree that the Thruway should have converted to mileposts based on the interstate route when it was assigned, it's NYSDOT who really messed up here. They approached milemarkers incorrectly with the building of I-87 and I-90 outside of the Thruway. They should have started posting the Northway around MP 156 and I-90 through Albany around MP 348.  I-90 should never have gone through Albany, Free 90 should be I-687 and I-90 should have just stayed on the Berkshire Connector it's entire length. They'll never change it now though, too many egos to feed and Albany motorists are confused enough without having to learn a new route numbering designation.

[vdeane]

Yeah, people in Albany don't even know that I-87 is anything but the Northway and that I-90 is anything but free 90.  To them, the Thruway is just the Thruway and nothing else.

Why did you get off the Thruway in the work zone?  The Thruway lanes are the through lanes.  I-87 exits itself.

[highwayroads]

Upstate New York roads, I understand what you are saying about Exit 61 in Ripley. The 61 sign I am seeing is in Albany, NY about 330 miles from the PA state line.

[highwayroads]

I-90 in New York is my favorite road between all roads in Connecticut, New York, and Massachusetts. Absolutely flat for the most part, rarely do you ever have to brake (the cars are so distanced) and I can stay on cruise control the whole time and raise my fuel mpg.

[Jim]

If this



is the one you are talking about (at the Exit 23 tolls in Albany), it does in fact mean you stay left for exits 1 through 22 and right for exits 24 through 61.

[empirestate]

I'm a bit mixed up here...you were on the Berkshire Spur, a branch of the Thruway, approaching Interchange 21A? (Which would be in Coeymans but not I-90 anymore.) Or you were on the mainline Thruway, I-87, approaching Interchange 24 (where I-90 rejoins and I-87 splits onto the Northway)? Or were you on I-90, the northern Albany bypass, a NYSDOT freeway, approaching the I-87/Northway exit?

I'm also not seeing where you lost your chance to stay on I-90...did the left lane in fact ever close before the split, trapping you in the right-hand exit-only lane to I-87? Wouldn't that mean I-90 itself was, in fact, closed? Or was the lane closure after the split, in which case, what was the obstacle to moving back over to the left before you passed to point of no return?

Anyway, don't forget that mile 0 of I-87 is, in fact, in New York City, at the Triborough Bridge approach. Mile 0 of the Thruway, then, is along I-87 at the NYC/Westchester line, and finally mile 0 of the Adirondack Northway is at I-90 (or is it US 20?) in Albany.

Also, it sounds like you actually prefer the toll scam route...staying on the Thruway system and thus never passing the extra toll booths. But the "runaround" route, i.e., staying on I-90, costs you less... I will agree, though, that the Thruway does encourage staying on its system...of course they get more money, but you also save time if there's congestion on free I-90. Then again, I've never myself found that highest number of dollars in my pocket or fewest minutes equals best option. That may seem obvious, but it's striking how often people seem to make decisions based on no other criteria...

[NE2]

You know, you can exit and re-enter at I-88 and save even more

[highwayroads]

Ok all of you, I figured it out about Exit 61. Thank you for all your help. It is a very bizarre setup. Yes, Exit 61 is the last exit on I-90 (Thruway). Exit 43 is the last exit on I-87 (Adirondack Northway), why isn't that on the sign too?

The way the sign makes it sound is like Exit 24-61 is a 24a or 24b instead of Exits 24 through 61.

[PurdueBill]

If this



is the one you are talking about (at the Exit 23 tolls in Albany), it does in fact mean you stay left for exits 1 through 22 and right for exits 24 through 61.

More of the good old signs that they had a burst of with the funny lowercase a characters that look like lopped d characters.  Those were sprinkled around the Thruway system for a little while; I wonder if some contractor was out of some letters or something.  I always liked those...thought they had character.

As far as staying on the system vs. using free 90 around Albany, I always just stay on the system when traveling through there....maybe it is a holdover from my younger years when the Northway/Thruway interchange was its old version, underpowered and backed up badly, or maybe it just never seemed to be worth it to make the two extra stops (this was way before E-Z Pass).  Nowadays I still just stay on and use the Berkshire Extension in its full length, out of habit or just because if I'm traveling that way I'm coming from the PA line and the amount I'd save shunpiking around Albany is small potatoes relative to the total toll.  

[highwayroads]

Empire State, I was travelling west past the Berkshire Connector, over the bridge, through the first set of splits further west until the last big split that continues to either 90 West or 87 North. That is where the construction screwed up the lanes.

Yeah, now that I think about it, that is the section on the navigation system that just says New York Thruway with no Interstate # assigned.

[highwayroads]

Purdue Bill, I just stay on the nonstop road where I don't exit to go off to I-90. I always pass the Professional Agents Insurance Company.

[highwayroads]

Purdue Bill also, I just looked at the photo you posted, I observe the signs going westbound and your sign looks to be going eastbound. Are the signs the same going both directions?

[agentsteel53]

I-90 in New York is my favorite road between all roads in Connecticut, New York, and Massachusetts. Absolutely flat for the most part, rarely do you ever have to brake (the cars are so distanced) and I can stay on cruise control the whole time and raise my fuel mpg.

the speed limit should be 75 on that road.

[PurdueBill]

Purdue Bill also, I just looked at the photo you posted, I observe the signs going westbound and your sign looks to be going eastbound. Are the signs the same going both directions?

I can't take credit for the pic, I quoted Jim's post with it.  The assembly in question is at Exit 23, I-787, after the traffic funnels through the toll plaza and heads for the trumpet interchange with the Thruway.  The Berkshire Extension hits 87 at Exit 21A, south of there.  I believe that the signs from the Extension approaching 87 are similar in wording but are newer.

[empirestate]

Ok all of you, I figured it out about Exit 61. Thank you for all your help. It is a very bizarre setup. Yes, Exit 61 is the last exit on I-90 (Thruway). Exit 43 is the last exit on I-87 (Adirondack Northway), why isn't that on the sign too?

Because the Northway isn't a component of the Thruway system. You're supposed to understand that you're on or entering the Thruway system, and the range of exit numbers offered to you at these splits refers to parts of that system. You always have to remember that the Thruway is an older system than the Interstates, and they don't feel any compulsion to re-categorize themselves based on this johnny-come-lately means of building, funding and marking superhighways.

Empire State, I was travelling west past the Berkshire Connector, over the bridge, through the first set of splits further west until the last big split that continues to either 90 West or 87 North. That is where the construction screwed up the lanes.

Yeah, now that I think about it, that is the section on the navigation system that just says New York Thruway with no Interstate # assigned.

If you hadn't yet reached the 87/90 split (Exit 24), then you were still on I-87 northbound (but still generally westbound on the Thruway system as a whole). After I-87 splits but before I-90 joins, all within Interchange 24, there is technically a short, non-Interstate stretch that the (uninvolved) state DOT has helpfully labeled 915H, which you wouldn't know if you weren't a fan of my web site.

If this whole situation strikes your interest, definitely browse the m.t.r. archives on Google Groups. It's been a hot topic of discussion since the beginning (you know, since last century and all). It even gets into the titillating topic of 4-digit Interstates!

[corco]

Quote from: highwayroads on April 22, 2012, 04:18:01 PM

I-90 in New York is my favorite road between all roads in Connecticut, New York, and Massachusetts. Absolutely flat for the most part, rarely do you ever have to brake (the cars are so distanced) and I can stay on cruise control the whole time and raise my fuel mpg.

the speed limit should be 75 on that road.

I have one ticket in 8.5 years of driving. I got it on I-90 in New York. That's the only time I've been to New York.  If that road were in the west, the speed limit would be 75. The officer didn't seem to care. I was going 83 and I didn't feel like I was speeding at all, and I'm normally pretty speed-conscious.

[Jim]

Here's the one (as of 2005, but whatever's there now would be similar) at the western end of the Berkshire Spur.



And here's what was on the Thruway/I-87 North approaching the Exit 24 interchange, again as of 2005.



I am still trying to figure out how the OP could have been forced off the Thruway mainline at Exit 24 but I haven't been through there since the latest round of lane reconfigurations as part of the ongoing widening of the Thruway between 23 and 24.

[empirestate]

Quote from: highwayroads on April 22, 2012, 04:18:01 PM
the speed limit should be 75 on that road.

I have one ticket in 8.5 years of driving. I got it on I-90 in New York. That's the only time I've been to New York.  If that road were in the west, the speed limit would be 75. The officer didn't seem to care. I was going 83 and I didn't feel like I was speeding at all, and I'm normally pretty speed-conscious.

That's interesting; how long ago was that? Having lived in NY pretty much my whole life, I've never once gotten a ticket on the Thruway, but I agree it could have a higher limit. Of course, growing up with 55 mph, we all thought it was pretty nifty when the state starting allowing 65 in places, and of course the Thruway was one of the first of those. The police advertised a zero-tolerance policy for the higher limits, but yeah, 83 would tend to get you pinched most anywhere! (Doesn't help that the Thruway has its own state police division, Troop T.)

[Jim]

Of course this thread brings up an often-discussed topic on this and similar forums about New York's mile marker/exit numbering on routes that are in-part controlled by the Thruway authority.  I'd love to see a consistent mile marker system based on actual route numbers with mile-based exit numbers, but it seems unlikely to happen any time soon.  As long as two different entities are in charge of different parts, I can't see them coordinating on a renumbering.  There's also the "motorist confusion" argument, but I don't buy that.  Many states have successfully switched from sequential to mileage based exits.

[machias]

The argument that I hear the most about not switching the interchange numbers is that it won't work well in the five boroughs.  I have countered that they could do a hybrid system whereas the five boroughs stick to their existing numbers and the highways that head upstate could switch from sequential to distance where the milepost number becomes higher than the interchange number. On the Thruway, this would happen when you crossed the Tappan Zee headed northbound, as sequentially the 26th exit on I-87 (Exit 10 Nyack) is at milepost 25.5.  From there you could go to distance based exit numbers using the actual I-87 mileposts from the Triborough Bridge and avoid the letter suffixed exit numbers that the Thruway and NYSDOT are paranoid about.   You could then keep that scheme all the way up I-87.  There's already signs that indicate that the Thruway switches to I-90 in Albany (as you move from north to westbound), just replace the Exits 25-61 exit tab with Exits 348-1.  You could even make it say (90) Exits 348-1 if you wanted to be technical about it.

(90) EXITS 348-1
  Thruway WEST
        Buffalo

[shadyjay]

The argument that I hear the most about not switching the interchange numbers is that it won't work well in the five boroughs.  I have countered that they could do a hybrid system whereas the five boroughs stick to their existing numbers and the highways that head upstate could switch from sequential to distance where the milepost number becomes higher than the interchange number.

Or better yet, isolate the boroughs further, by having those roads which travel "upstate" reset to MP 0 at the city/county border.  So in that case, the Thruway would still have its MP 0/EXIT 1 in Yonkers where it does presently.  A road like I-95, however, would reset to MP 0 within the limits of the Bronx, due to it being part of the Thruway system (and the only? road in NYC not maintained by the DOT).  The confusion would set in with a road which continues its name outside the NYC limits, such as the Hutchinson Parkway or the LIE.  So in those cases, the method you described above would work best.

Regarding the Thruway system further upstate, I would leave the existing mileposts of the Thruway alone.  If you renumber the mileposts west of Albany to coincide with those of I-90, then you'd have duplicate miles on the same stretch of road for a couple hundred miles, which could lead to all sorts of confusion for motorists, emergency responders, and such.  I think the only logical solution, in a "forced-to-switch exit numbers situation", would be to accept the fact that I-90's exits are going to increase as you head west, but when you hit the Albany area, the exit numbers could revert to the normal "increase as you head east" mileposts, even though they haven't been posted on the Thruway.  Or better yet, to further simplify matters and cut out a set of exit numbers, just send I-90 over the entire Berkshire Spur, keeping the same milepost sequence as is presently in place, but "B-#" exits numbered by mileage (all 3 of 'em).

Until the day comes when the Thruway Authority is abolished, I really don't think you'll see mileage on the I-90 section of the Thruway ever referenced from the PA state line.  Then again, I've been wrong before.

[vdeane]

The Port Authority maintains I-95 from the NJ border to I-87.