Was the road hobby better before or after the internet?

[bugo]

I was born in 1973, and I was 22 years old when I first got on the internet.  In my formative years, the only information I had came from maps and personal observations.  There were state DOT libraries, but one had to be in the capital city to access these archives.  Most of us don't have a full set of maps of every state and a lot of knowledge we take for granted now was still largely unknown.  Along comes the internet and personal websites and MTR and all this knowledge is made public and pooled for the first time.  Then came other forums, Flickr, Facebook, roadmeets, scanned maps, Terraserver, Google Maps, and many other resources that I could have only dreamed of in 1995.  Some of the younger folks on this forum don't even remember a time where the internet didn't exist as it does today. 

I wouldn't trade growing up in the non-internet age for anything as far as the hobby goes, but I'm glad that information is so easily available today.  Back then, all the knowledge I had was from my own research.  Now there's an answer to almost any question one can ask.  And growing up in the '70s and '80s, I got to see a lot of things that aren't there now, like cutout markers and a lot of old bridges.

Believe it or not, the early days of MTR were very cool, with no trolls and very few idiots ruining the place.  A lot of the topics being discussed had never been discussed on the internet before.  It was innocent.  But it eventually declined into the cesspool it is today.

What do you think?  Was the road hobby better before or after the internet?  I'm not going to pick a side because there were benefits in both eras.

[agentsteel53]

before.

more cutouts.

[txstateends]

There was a kind of innocence before.  I'd wonder at Christmas time if anyone would give me a road atlas (Rand McNally or otherwise) as one of my gifts.  It was always neat to see what free maps were available at gas stations.

Now, the internet gives us vast libraries and databases online that we could only dream about visiting before.  Yes, there is eBay or other trading/auction sites if you are looking for certain maps; but now there are no new oil company maps in wide distribution, and Rand McNally is one of the last atlas publishers, as well as one of the last national paper-map publishers.  Another loss of innocence, comes from Google.  Street View, while a great invention and tremendous tool/resource, takes away a big part of the wanderlust of someone who would like to travel and daydream about certain places.  Now, if you like, those far away places are visually as close as your computer.

Definitely a question with pros/cons on both sides....

[CentralCAroadgeek]

My road hobby experience was better after I joined this site because I actually got to share my pictures, rants, and questions about roads.

[Scott5114]

Unquestionably after. Aside from all the data you can get, there is something comforting in knowing you're not the only one who is so intrigued by roads and signs. And knowing you can talk to the other people about it ad nauseum without their eyes glossing over or interjecting something rude.

Were there ever road meets before the Internet? Road meets are tons of fun.

[J N Winkler]

I voted for the "after" case, because my principal roadgeeking interest is working with primary sources that relate to roads, and the advent of the Internet (or, to be more precise, the population of the Internet with useful data resources) has been an almost unqualifiedly positive development from this point of view.  I can now, for example, download construction plans for highway projects that interest me, or go back in time and watch the Santa Ana Freeway being built by reading articles in California Highways and Public Works (which has now been fully digitized).

(I say "almost unqualifiedly positive" because as more and more data resources become available electronically, the suppliers--not just the consumers--expect to receive some returns from their significant investments in digitization and electronic publication, and these are frequently in the form of convenience rather than pecuniary savings.  If you talk to someone who has been collecting plans on paper since the early days, like Randy Hersh, you will hear that it has become harder to get paper extracts, "dropped off the back of the print truck" spare copies, etc.)

My take on the early days of MTR and online discussion forums in general (whether mailing lists, Usenet newsgroups, early forerunners of Web forums, etc.) is that their decline is less about loss of innocence and more to do with group myopia.  There was the option early on to make MTR a moderated newsgroup, or to set up a parallel moderated MTR, but both were rejected as "censorship," neglecting the fact that in order for MTR to be as friendly and pleasant as it was in the early days, the individual members had to exercise a fair bit of self-censorship.

[hbelkins]

Definitely after.

I remember when I first found misc.transport.road, which would no doubt have been soon after it was created. It was like manna from heaven to find out there were others who shared the same interests.

Not a whole lot of people were taking road photos solely for that purpose before the Web made it easy to share. I know I didn't take pictures like that until I got on the Internet. If I had known what was coming, I would have taken a lot of photos in my youth. There were plenty of cutouts and other older signs around here that were around well past my earliest memories.

The 'net has made it much easier to learn things such as why I-238 isn't a typo in the atlas, etc. And we get to share opinions on that atrocity.

[texaskdog]

As much as google maps is usually wrong, fun to use it as a tool.  Also aerial photography, and old map scans you can find here where you had to find they actual map before.

[Duke87]

Considering that without the internet it would have been impossible to meet other people who share the hobby and be able to discuss things with them, this one is a no-brainer.

Of course, I can't really compare. I was 7 years old when we first got internet and 12 when I discovered nycroads.com. The online community was around before I was old enough to be involved in it. I'm kind of in the "third generation" of roadgeeks this way, or perhaps we can call it the "AARoads Generation" - people currently in the 18-25 age group that got into the community after the creation of this forum. (the first generation is the pre-internet generation and the second generation is the MTR generation)

[BigMattFromTexas]

I voted before, but I really shouldn't have voted. I've pretty much had the internet my whole life, I really used to look at the maps a lot more before I really got into the web. But with the street view, birds eye, and the high quality mapping, it's really easy to get a firsthand look at what to expect in an unfamiliar area. Also with the photo sharing now, you can upload 300 pictures onto the internet, easy.
I can also email the DOT's for highway maps! (I'm making my nation wide rounds again). I think also with the addition to this forum, it's easier to see other people's road pictures. So I think my answer is actually after...
BigMatt

[national highway 1]

I guess the communication amongst fellow roads enthusiasts is better in this current age than before the internet, i.e. quick responses and easy sharing of pictures and videos. Contact between roadgeeks and state DOTs is improving as demonstrated with CL. I do like CGI maps that are available as PDF or as a Zoomify. Also like drawing fictional highways on Google Earth using the line tool.
However, interactive mapping programs and a few lowly tourist guides have spawned a variety of errors and inconsistencies that can cause a few problems. I do like unfolding paper maps and flicking through travel atlases rather than a GPS. I generally use Google Maps for the StreetView.

[swbrotha100]

I think it's better now. I wish I had saved maps from when I was younger. It's nice to compare roads proposed or planned in the 70s and 80s compared to today.

I never would have known the reasoning for the I-95 gap in New Jersey, or why Breezewood is a four letter word to some of you, or learned more about roads, highways, etc in other places I have never physically been to before.

[kurumi]

After; and not only for the fact that there wasn't a single roadgeek among the people I knew before.

Research before was whatever maps you could scrounge up, old and new (remember when you'd discover a new interstate by finding it in Rand McNally?); the occasional newspaper article; and whatever you could find in the library.

Today, there's still a lot of info that requires boots on the ground to find. But online we have newspaper articles (searchable) from 80 years ago. Highway logs. Aerial photography. DOT plans and studies. It's awesome. And I still complain about the stuff I can't find.

[empirestate]

I'll say "after" I suppose, but just after. Rather like the enjoyment of seeing where an unknown highway leads, it was exciting to first discover what information was popping up on the Internet in its earlier days, stuff I never dreamed I'd find outside of some library that I probably didn't have permission to visit. It was fun to be asking for the first time many of the questions that are now old hat, and sharing the answers around m.t.r.

And indeed, the Internet probably turned me from an "observational" roadie into a practicing one. I was still driving all over the state, collecting county highway maps in person and building a website about it. There was enough content online to keep you interested, but not so much that we didn't still have to go out and actively collect it; and it was spread across a lot of different websites, so we had to build our own areas to contribute.

I remember when I went to the NYSDOT mapping office (now defunct) for the first time in person, they recognized me from my numerous mail orders and said, "Hey, it's our best customer!" and offered me a tour. The Internet won't replace that.

[Michael in Philly]

I think it's better now. I wish I had saved maps from when I was younger. It's nice to compare roads proposed or planned in the 70s and 80s compared to today.

I never would have known the reasoning for the I-95 gap in New Jersey, or why Breezewood is a four letter word to some of you, or learned more about roads, highways, etc in other places I have never physically been to before.

My only qualm about the Internet's effect on roadgeeking is I'm fervently hoping paper maps don't disappear.

And I'm hooking it onto your post because of your point about checking old maps to track changes:  if, in 2030, information about the state of the roads in 2020 is unavailable because no one in 2020 was printing maps, that will be a loss.

[J N Winkler]

And I'm hooking it onto your post because of your point about checking old maps to track changes:  if, in 2030, information about the state of the roads in 2020 is unavailable because no one in 2020 was printing maps, that will be a loss.

I don't think that will happen--instead, I expect the free maps to transition to plotted PDFs or MicroStation DGN files which are permanently archived on the state DOT's website.  State DOTs will have to continue to maintain their own mapping, not just to facilitate mass tourism by providing free maps, but also for internal recordkeeping purposes and to satisfy the de facto FAPG § 630(b) Supplement requirement for key maps in construction plans sets without resorting to often-inaccurate commercial mapping services.

[usends]

Definitely after.  Before, I honestly thought I was afflicted with some kind of strange disease.  Now I realize... well, maybe it is a disease, but at least I can commiserate with all of you...

Seriously, for me the biggest improvement resulting from the internet was the ability to easily find and communicate with like-minded people... to instantly share research, photos, maps, etc, regardless of how far apart we might live.  I've learned so much from all of you - much more than I ever could've simply through personal observation and research.  My website contains contributions from well over 200 people, almost none of whom live near me.

I will say, though, that initially the internet's ease and instantaneousness gave it "Platte River Syndrome": it was a mile wide, but only an inch deep.  This could give people the illusion that they truly grasped a certain topic, when really they were seeing only the tip of the iceberg.  Now, 15 or 20 years later, this is still true in some fields, but in general I think internet content is getting deeper as we go along.

[Beltway]

Before the Internet, I knew only one person with a long-term high interest in highways, and I considered it unusually fortunate to have connected with even that one person.

[kphoger]

For my trips to México, the internet has been an invaluable resource.

By reading various online forums and guides, I have been able to weigh the pros and cons of different border crossings, learn what paperwork to have ready at the border, and read recommendations of different routes.

By searching government websites, I have been able to verify forum discussions about legal issues and calculate highway tolls.

By using Google Maps and Mapquest, I have been able to plot turn-by-turn directions with landmarks for confusing or unfamiliar areas, see the locations of gas stations and restaurants, and piece together printable maps of areas where detailed street maps may otherwise not exist.

By browsing skyscrapercity forums, I have been able to read news articles about road construction, see pictures of the projects' progress and/or completion, and ask specific questions of people who actually live near and drive on the roads.

Without this kind of access at my fingertips, I can imagine how stressful my first drive would have been, as well as any foray into unexplored territory.

An example from our most recent trip a few weeks ago:
I found out from skyscrapercity forums that there was a new stack interchange under construction at El Indio, a well known intersection in Saltillo.  I'd never been to that part of town, but knew there was a good chance I would be driving through there on the trip.  So I was able to follow construction updates, including pictures and aerial views, to the point of completion.  I even found a YouTube of a person driving my exact route through the interchange, which let me know in advance what lane I would need to be in and what signs to look for.  From there I had directions to the house we were visiting, but it was Google Maps that allowed me measure intermediate distances and note landmarks along the way.

[formulanone]

Unquestionably after. Aside from all the data you can get, there is something comforting in knowing you're not the only one who is so intrigued by roads and signs. And knowing you can talk to the other people about it ad nauseum without their eyes glossing over or interjecting something rude.

Definitely after.  Before, I honestly thought I was afflicted with some kind of strange disease.  Now I realize... well, maybe it is a disease, but at least I can commiserate with all of you...

Seriously, for me the biggest improvement resulting from the internet was the ability to easily find and communicate with like-minded people... to instantly share research, photos, maps, etc, regardless of how far apart we might live.

Considering that without the internet it would have been impossible to meet other people who share the hobby and be able to discuss things with them, this one is a no-brainer.

...I'm kind of in the "third generation" of roadgeeks this way, or perhaps we can call it the "AARoads Generation" - people currently in the 18-25 age group that got into the community after the creation of this forum. (the first generation is the pre-internet generation and the second generation is the MTR generation)

Agreed on all points; I will say that Google Street View is something that is so amazing, yet takes away most of the discovery, which is about the only drawback.

I'm definitely in the third generation, especially when I hear the occasional grumble "we've talked about this before, haven't we?". I was fortunate enough to have a film camera around twenty years ago, I just wish I could have afforded more film and processing/development costs back then.

[MrDisco99]

I'd started out collecting street maps of cities I'd visited.  So many have gone out of print, though, that I've stopped doing that.

[Brandon]

I'd have to say after.  Before, you were just odd  , but after, you're still a bit odd  , but you can share your oddity with other odd people.        Others who understand you and you understand them.   

[mgk920]

Also, both here and in Skyscrapercity, I've learned so incredibly much about the roads both here in North America and especially in Europe since the resources of the internet became available, such that European roads are no longer the exotic puzzle that they once were, but instead, except for the details around the edges, are really little different from what we have here.

That as well as the fact that there are so many others from all over who I can share these things with and learn from, hands down 'after'.

Mike

[mjb2002]

After. And here is why.

1) Most state DOTs have maps of their counties and cities available online. That is how I was able to get maps of lesser known areas in SC and GA, such as Allendale County, for example - although SCDOT should've done the same thing GDOT did with their maps and put Street Names in every part of the county maps.

2) By using mapquest, bing maps and Google Earth, I am able to create sign illustrations.

[Dougtone]

After, for reasons already touched on by others in this thread.