NJ driving (Re: I-95 gap in NJ)

[agentsteel53]

By observing the driver make one or more violation(s) of traffic law(s).

That makes a traffic stop legal.  That also makes it legal for a trained dog to sniff the exterior of the vehicle, and if the dog "alerts," then they cops have all the probable cause they need.

is that possible to do from a stationary position?  it seems like it would be quite the coincidence if the suspected vehicle manages to violate a law in that critical section of several hundred feet where the parked officer can see it happen.

(in other news, just how the fuck did a dog alerting become probable cause?  the dog can be trained to alert for any number of stimuli, and there's no way you can put it on the witness stand and ask it "did you alert because Officer Wilson gave you the secret signal?  did you, boy?  you're such a good dog!  yes you are!")

[deathtopumpkins]

is that possible to do from a stationary position?

Absolutely. There are any number of violations they could get you for -whether it be just speeding at 5 over (most likely), making an unsafe lane change, following too close, staying in the left lane (I know NJ's hardcore about that), etc. Plus they could be sitting there running random plates that drive by. If someone's plates come up as having a warrant out for some minor offense or something, they can pull them over.

[cpzilliacus]

is that possible to do from a stationary position?

Absolutely. There are any number of violations they could get you for -whether it be just speeding at 5 over (most likely), making an unsafe lane change, following too close, staying in the left lane (I know NJ's hardcore about that), etc. Plus they could be sitting there running random plates that drive by. If someone's plates come up as having a warrant out for some minor offense or something, they can pull them over.

Don't forget changing lanes without using a turn signal. 

Only recently did that  become a "moving" violation in Maryland - I think it's illegal in most states, but generally ignored by law enforcement, but useful (and entirely legal) if a police officer needs a reason to initiate a permissible traffic stop.

[Alps]

staying in the left lane (I know NJ's hardcore about that)

Um... they may have just enforced it for one or two traffic stops in the not too distant past, and that's about it in my 29+ years.

[deathtopumpkins]

I've never witnessed enforcement firsthand, but KRETP is one thing I've always heard about New Jersey actually enforcing - and sure enough every time I've driven through the Garden State people have for the most part kept to the right - far more so than in other states. New Jersey also posts far more signs than I've noticed in other states.

I may be entirely wrong on this it's just a reputation I've always heard New Jersey had.

[agentsteel53]

I've never witnessed enforcement firsthand, but KRETP is one thing I've always heard about New Jersey actually enforcing - and sure enough every time I've driven through the Garden State people have for the most part kept to the right - far more so than in other states. New Jersey also posts far more signs than I've noticed in other states.

I may be entirely wrong on this it's just a reputation I've always heard New Jersey had.

Jersey drivers in general are pretty damn good.  not only are they less obnoxious to share a road with, but the accident rate is, I believe, the lowest in the nation. 

[Alps]

None of this sounds plausible. NJ is a madhouse where you drive in whatever lane looks clear. That's prone to change at any moment. The left lane is rarely ever the fastest. On the Parkway, the fastest lane is next-to-left, followed by right, left, middle, and ending with next-to-right.

[cpzilliacus]

I've never witnessed enforcement firsthand, but KRETP is one thing I've always heard about New Jersey actually enforcing - and sure enough every time I've driven through the Garden State people have for the most part kept to the right - far more so than in other states. New Jersey also posts far more signs than I've noticed in other states.

I may be entirely wrong on this it's just a reputation I've always heard New Jersey had.

Jersey drivers in general are pretty damn good.  not only are they less obnoxious to share a road with, but the accident rate is, I believe, the lowest in the nation. 

Best drivers in the U.S., IMO, are in California, in particular the "triangle" formed by Ventura County on to the northwest, San Bernardino and Riverside Counties to the east, and San Diego County to the south.  These drivers usually signal lane changes, let other drivers make lane changes and usually do not engage in the idiocy that I frequently see in the District of Columbia.

New Jersey drivers are not especially bad (again, IMO). 

Worst drivers I have seen in the U.S.?  A split decision - the District of Columbia, with its many unskilled and aggressive drivers, more than a few impaired by alcohol or other substances, plus taxicabs that will cross three lanes on an arterial street to reach a possible fare have earned a dubious tie with South Florida (Dade County), where the combination of ultra-aggressive Latin American drivers and elderly persons behind the wheel (many of which probably should have turned in their keys) is frequently a lethal mix.

[agentsteel53]

Best drivers in the U.S., IMO, are in California, in particular the "triangle" formed by Ventura County on to the northwest, San Bernardino and Riverside Counties to the east, and San Diego County to the south.  These drivers usually signal lane changes, let other drivers make lane changes and usually do not engage in the idiocy that I frequently see in the District of Columbia.

I disagree.  there are a lot of good drivers, but just the right number of stupid ones to bring the system to a halt. 

I'd say the northeast has the best drivers - I've never had too much trouble even in places like Boston and New York City.  for some reason Boston is cited as the most difficult place in the US to drive in, and I've never seen why this is the case.

Worst drivers I have seen in the U.S.?  A split decision - the District of Columbia, with its many unskilled and aggressive drivers, more than a few impaired by alcohol or other substances, plus taxicabs that will cross three lanes on an arterial street to reach a possible fare have earned a dubious tie with South Florida (Dade County), where the combination of ultra-aggressive Latin American drivers and elderly persons behind the wheel (many of which probably should have turned in their keys) is frequently a lethal mix.

agreed on Miami!  worst drivers in the US for sure.  I've never had a problem with the ultra-aggressive Latin American style (I think Mexican drivers are excellent!), but the old people combine stupidity with overt hostility.  I had one blow through a stop sign and nearly kill me, and as I slammed on the brakes, he cut me off so I couldn't move, got out of his car, and started screaming at me.  What the deuce?

Utah and Oregon have some especially bovine drivers ... they seem to really like cruising slowly in herds, making it impossible to pass and move effectively.  Albuquerque and Denver (especially the former) also seem to have their fair share of bovine tendencies.

[Roadgeek Adam]

None of this sounds plausible. NJ is a madhouse where you drive in whatever lane looks clear. That's prone to change at any moment. The left lane is rarely ever the fastest. On the Parkway, the fastest lane is next-to-left, followed by right, left, middle, and ending with next-to-right.

Then wait till it rains, when all the idiots come out. I promise you, Jersey is one of the worst in the country. When my father can go 82 in the right lane, you know we have a lot of Left Lane Sitters.

[agentsteel53]

Then wait till it rains, when all the idiots come out.

forgot about that.  another strike against SoCal drivers.  the vast majority have absolutely no idea that one is supposed to drive more carefully during inclement weather.

[YankeesFan]

I live in NJ, and if you're from PA or NY STAY OUT of the left lane. seriously, i don't ride the parkway or turnpike often, but on I-295 and I-195 nothing gets alot of us NJ drivers more pissed then PA or NY drivers not keeping right.

[cpzilliacus]

I live in NJ, and if you're from PA or NY STAY OUT of the left lane. seriously, i don't ride the parkway or turnpike often, but on I-295 and I-195 nothing gets alot of us NJ drivers more pissed then PA or NY drivers not keeping right.

When driving on a (frequently at capacity) four-lane freeway or expressway (like the N.J. Turnpike between Exits 1 and 4 or the north end of the Garden State Parkway or I-95 across all of North Carolina or most of the Baltimore-Washington Parway), it is especially infuriating when there are people "Nestoring" in the left lane. 

What is Nestoring, you ask? 

See this Wikipedia entry for the late John Nestor, M.D. for a quick explanation.  Added bonus - Nestor was born in New Jersey.

[1995hoo]

No offense to cpzilliacus......

Every time I drive in Maryland I think the local drivers must believe they live in the United Kingdom because they all seem focused on "slower traffic keep left" and they seem deathly afraid of the right lane. They all cluster in the left lanes whenever possible. I can think of a trip back from New Jersey in 2006 where I was by far the fastest car on I-95 in Maryland, doing 85 mph or more in the right lane flying past all the traffic in the other lanes to my left. Virginians are bad about this too, but not as bad as Marylanders in my opinion. 9 times out of 10 if I'm on the Interstate and I see someone bomb across four lanes from the left lane in a mad dash to exit on the right the car has a Maryland plate.

I've generally found the Pennsylvania Turnpike and Nova Scotia's 100-series highways to be the most pleasant in terms of lane discipline in North America. (I should mention that in Quebec sometimes I wind up having to drive in the left lane when the right lane is simply too beat up, but that's a special situation.)

[agentsteel53]

a lot of California long-haul interstates (especially 5 and 40) have really rough right lanes as well.  so I usually find myself cruising in the left lane, and moving over only if someone is coming up behind me.

even if I am trying to stay in the right lane, I must remember to switch to the left under any bridge, lest I desire a major whaling of the suspension.

[Compulov]

I live in NJ, and if you're from PA or NY STAY OUT of the left lane. seriously, i don't ride the parkway or turnpike often, but on I-295 and I-195 nothing gets alot of us NJ drivers more pissed then PA or NY drivers not keeping right.

I was born in raised in NJ and only moved to PA in 2009, so I'd like to think I've seen both sides of this argument. While I agree with you, when I'm in NJ there are plenty of NYers and PAers hogging the left lane, I've lost count of the number of NJers I get stuck behind plodding along slowly in the left lane on PA freeways and expressways. So, I've come to the conclusion it's an out-of-state driver thing, more than it is specifically a PA or NY thing.
FWIW, I've got PA plates and I'm usually the fastest car on the road (and I give up the left lane if someone wants to pass or if I'm not actually passing anyone).

[cpzilliacus]

No offense to cpzilliacus......

None taken.

Every time I drive in Maryland I think the local drivers must believe they live in the United Kingdom because they all seem focused on "slower traffic keep left" and they seem deathly afraid of the right lane. They all cluster in the left lanes whenever possible. I can think of a trip back from New Jersey in 2006 where I was by far the fastest car on I-95 in Maryland, doing 85 mph or more in the right lane flying past all the traffic in the other lanes to my left. Virginians are bad about this too, but not as bad as Marylanders in my opinion. 9 times out of 10 if I'm on the Interstate and I see someone bomb across four lanes from the left lane in a mad dash to exit on the right the car has a Maryland plate.

The bigger problem that relates to this (in my opinion) is on a road with a concurrent-flow HOV lane (66 outside the Beltway, 267, 270 and 50).  There everyone bunches up in the general-purpose lane immediately to the right of the HOV lanes.

Failure to keep right is also a big problem on the four-lane segments of I-66, I-270, U.S. 50 (in Md.), I-70, I-97 and I-83.  And I-95 between Petersburg, Va. and Florence, S.C.

I've generally found the Pennsylvania Turnpike and Nova Scotia's 100-series highways to be the most pleasant in terms of lane discipline in North America. (I should mention that in Quebec sometimes I wind up having to drive in the left lane when the right lane is simply too beat up, but that's a special situation.)

I don't especially like the Penna. Turnpike because of the numerous breezewoods, but the E-W mainline is not terrible as long as there are no traffic disruptions.

[Takumi]

And I-95 between Petersburg, Va. and Florence, S.C.

Interesting inclusion, as I encountered left lane blocking on part of this stretch the other day. Southbound, the left lane becomes the right lane just south of I-295 (specifically Exit 45, when the right lane becomes the exit ramp), so if coming from Petersburg you'd have to consciously shift lanes. If you're coming from I-295, that becomes the left lane, so it could be that a lot of the left lane blockers between Petersburg and, say, Emporia are I-295 traffic that just never moved over to the right. The last time I was significantly further south of there was in extremely inclement weather, so there was little passing at all.

[1995hoo]

I've generally found the Pennsylvania Turnpike and Nova Scotia's 100-series highways to be the most pleasant in terms of lane discipline in North America. (I should mention that in Quebec sometimes I wind up having to drive in the left lane when the right lane is simply too beat up, but that's a special situation.)

I don't especially like the Penna. Turnpike because of the numerous breezewoods, but the E-W mainline is not terrible as long as there are no traffic disruptions.

I distinguish between the interchanges and the driving experience itself. In this case I intended my comment to be confined solely to the "keep right except to pass" issue. As to that particular issue I find the Pennsylvania Turnpike to be one of the better driving experiences. I can think of a run I made from the US-222 interchange east to the US-1 interchange back in August 2006 (I was heading to Princeton on business and wanted to avoid I-95 traffic) when I was doing 85 to 90 mph most of the way and the slower traffic just melted out of the way. It was beautiful.

As a general matter the Turnpike is not one of my favorite roads most of the time, with the sole exception in recent years being on the drive to and from Pittsburgh for the NHL Winter Classic on January 1, 2011. There were so many other Capitals fans on the road that it made it a lot of fun–but then, that's a reason that has nothing to do with the road itself. Had there not been so many other Caps fans we might have taken I-68 instead.

BTW, I agree with you about I-95 between Florence and Richmond. I found that stretch particularly frustrating last month when there were lots of convoys of electrical-service vehicles headed to the DC area following the derecho. Glad to see them on the road, but I really resent the way some people simply REFUSE to speed up to move back over when they're passing those things. I can think of multiple times when we were stuck doing 60 mph in the left lane for 5 to 10 miles at a time trying to pass tractor-trailers and electrical convoys.

I should mention that I've found over the years that if I see a left-lane hog up ahead, probably 75% of the time the car has Virginia plates. I've been on the Trans-Canada Highway up near St-Jovite late on a winter afternoon with only one or two other cars on the road and I've had the experience of coming up in the right lane and seeing a lone car ahead being driven in the left lane for no apparent reason and, sure enough, it has a Virginia plate.

(Incidentally, on a drive across England on the M4 from Bristol back to Heathrow Airport the only car I saw hogging the right lane had a French number plate. Make of that what you will.)

[J N Winkler]

(in other news, just how the fuck did a dog alerting become probable cause?  the dog can be trained to alert for any number of stimuli, and there's no way you can put it on the witness stand and ask it "did you alert because Officer Wilson gave you the secret signal?  did you, boy?  you're such a good dog!  yes you are!")

If you are a shrewd defense attorney and think there is any value in it, you can call the person who trained the dog to the stand as a witness and try to show that the dog was trained inappropriately to respond to legal, innocuous stimuli.  If you are able to show this, then all the evidence arising from the subsequent search is thrown out ("fruit of the poisoned tree") and your client goes free except possibly for the traffic infraction that gave rise to the original stop.

[agentsteel53]

If you are a shrewd defense attorney and think there is any value in it, you can call the person who trained the dog to the stand as a witness and try to show that the dog was trained inappropriately to respond to legal, innocuous stimuli.  If you are able to show this, then all the evidence arising from the subsequent search is thrown out ("fruit of the poisoned tree") and your client goes free except possibly for the traffic infraction that gave rise to the original stop.

is there a way for an expert witness (say, a dog trainer) to demonstrate - to a sufficient degree to convince a reasonable jury - that a dog has been trained to indicate on multiple stimuli, some of which are kept hidden from the public?

assume of course that this expert witness does not know the specific signal that he is trying to demonstrate the existence of.  i.e. he cannot know, a priori, that "when I stamp my right foot" is the signal.  he has to deduce its existence from the space of all possible signals.

in math, we call this an NP-complete problem, and it goes a long way towards showing why no reasonable constitutional challenge has been offered to the problem of K-9 searches.

[bugo]

By observing the driver make one or more violation(s) of traffic law(s).

That makes a traffic stop legal.  That also makes it legal for a trained dog to sniff the exterior of the vehicle, and if the dog "alerts," then they cops have all the probable cause they need.

is that possible to do from a stationary position?  it seems like it would be quite the coincidence if the suspected vehicle manages to violate a law in that critical section of several hundred feet where the parked officer can see it happen.

(in other news, just how the fuck did a dog alerting become probable cause?  the dog can be trained to alert for any number of stimuli, and there's no way you can put it on the witness stand and ask it "did you alert because Officer Wilson gave you the secret signal?  did you, boy?  you're such a good dog!  yes you are!")

I was pulled over and harassed by the cops in Waldron, Arkansas once.  They brought the dog, and when the cop pointed at the gas tank, the dog would respond.  They accused us of having drugs in the gas tank, which was ridiculous.  Finally, they let us go after wasting an hour.  FTP.

[hbelkins]

FTP.

HTTP

[NE2]

hate the teabagging police

[citrus]

is there a way for an expert witness (say, a dog trainer) to demonstrate - to a sufficient degree to convince a reasonable jury - that a dog has been trained to indicate on multiple stimuli, some of which are kept hidden from the public?

assume of course that this expert witness does not know the specific signal that he is trying to demonstrate the existence of.  i.e. he cannot know, a priori, that "when I stamp my right foot" is the signal.  he has to deduce its existence from the space of all possible signals.

in math, we call this an NP-complete problem, and it goes a long way towards showing why no reasonable constitutional challenge has been offered to the problem of K-9 searches.

I'd like to see a reduction from graph 3-coloring.