Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

[1995hoo]

Mike, cpzilliacus, am I missing anything in my comments above?

I knew the segment thing was going to cause no end of confusion and hand-wringing out there.

I think you covered it accurately and well.

I dislike the segment-based tolling with a passion - except - that it may prove to have merit when the 95 Express lanes are pointed south, to avoid the congested mess in Stafford County where everything narrows from 2 lanes to 1 lane.

Though I concede the same could perhaps be said about the 495 Express Lanes approaching their north terminus north of Va. 267 (Dulles Toll Road).

The difference, of course, is that on I-95 you can bail out to the mainline just north of Triangle, whereas at the Beltway lanes' northern end your only alternative is to exit the Beltway completely to the local streets in Tysons or the Dulles Toll Road.

Depending on how they manage the tolls, the segment-based tolling could have the benefit of managing the traffic at Turkeycock when the lanes are pointed north. Whether that happens in practice is something only time will tell.

[Mapmikey]

I dislike the segment-based tolling with a passion - except - that it may prove to have merit when the 95 Express lanes are pointed south, to avoid the congested mess in Stafford County where everything narrows from 2 lanes to 1 lane.

Still a small sample size (5 commutes), but this dynamic has yet to happen to me.  The express lanes narrow to 1 lane and head through the flyover at 45 mph (about as fast as the 30 mph posted curve can be easily done).

The flaw in stubborn guy's argument is this:  Yes an end-to-end price could be shown, but that means Transurban would have to lock you into that rate for the far northern segment from 25 miles away.  But because of the distance and traffic pattern changes on the other end, you couldn't accurately manage the congestion on the northern segment with the pricing.  Well earlier in this thread I tried comparing this to trying to do it on the Penna Tpk and how it couldn't be done as one segment in a congestion pricing system because of how far the other end is.  It's the same with I-95.  It is wholly dependent on the number of opportunities there are to get in/out of the lanes and if that is available throughout your toll road, the distance you can do congestion pricing as 1 segment for the whole thing is pretty short.

Mapmikey

[1995hoo]

Good explanation. If he responds further, I may borrow that.

[jeffandnicole]

It's definitely a different system than what we are generally used to, regardless if someone has ever utilized a variable priced highway.  It would be nice if they were able to state: "Enter now, and you're guaranteed this price". They probably could have.  If there was an issue that caused traffic to congest, they could jump up the price for later entrance points to discourage motorists from entering the tolled lanes at those points.

There are certainly other pricing options out there that may have been or will be considered.  If it becomes an issue where motorists see a higher price for the next segment(s) of road, resulting in them making last second decisions and causing accidents trying to exit the tolled lanes, they may have to revisit how the pricing structure works. But for now, traffic is getting used to how they are going to utilize the road.  Some people are going to make a habit of entering the lanes for a while, then exiting.  Others will stay out of the lanes to save money, but at a point where the general-use lanes congest, they'll enter the tolled lanes at that point. This is more of an experimentation unlike what we've experienced in the country with fixed and variable priced toll lanes, so it'll take some time to see how the public responds.

[1995hoo]

Good points. The tolling only started last Monday, December 29, so it's been six seven business days (counting today), of which four had very light Christmastime traffic. It's not reasonable for people to try to make definitive conclusions about the new system that quickly. It's not surprising they do that, though. Same thing happened when the Beltway lanes opened and there were a spate of crashes within the first four days due to irresponsible drivers. The "woe-is-me" handwringer crowd were quick to condemn the lanes as fatally flawed, but the uproar died down within a week.

(Edit seen with the strikeout. I got confused as to what day of the week today is.)

[mtantillo]

Took my first express lane trip in the toll-era today. Crossed the Potomac at 5:20. Entered the reversible lanes at Duke street around 5:45. Exited the Express Lanes in Gatrisonville at about 6:10. Crossed the Rappahannock at 6:25. Tolls were $2.55 to Backlick, then $5.55 to Dale, then $3.65 to Garrisonville. So total was $11.75. Doing the math while driving definitely is a distraction!

Obviously, biggest complaint was having to wait until Duke to enter. But once I was in them I was flying at some points at maximum (non-misdemeanor) speed...79. There was basically no delay at the southern end. A minor stop/go at the Rappahannock. I was bypassing some serious traffic near the Occaquan. But if I was closely watching traffic on my phone, I would have probably not entered until after Springfield (the mainline delay cleared near Edsal). Then sailed past traffic from FFX Co Parkway to Occaquan, and bailed at Dale, because there were only very minor delays at the south end in the mainline. That would have only cost me $5.15.

I did see several vehicles in the lanes that didn't belong. A tractor trailer was pulled over by VSP. And then there was a U-Haul towing a trailer with a car on it (4 axles). c'mon people, read the signs! Both vehicles seemed hazardous as they were going much slower than the regular speed of traffic.

I also saw a decent number of vehicles from NY and PA in the lanes.

Overall good experience. Much better than the free trial when the lanes were jammed.

[NJRoadfan]

Vehicles with trailers were still using the lanes on the 27th before tolls kicked in. I was stuck behind one at the southern end crossing the flyover. Coming back on the 4th I didn't see any VSP patrols at all on the lanes. I did see some out of state plates entering though. I wonder if they'll be surprised when they look at the E-ZPass bill. The regular lanes weren't busy at all and moving at well above the speed limit.

One weird thing on the 27th. WTOP was reporting that southbound I-95 at Franconia-Springfield Parkway had serious delays due to late running construction closures, particularly on the giant Springfield Interchange flyover. Not once during the report did they mention the express lanes as an alternate or even mention the direction they were operating in. I found the latter odd as they have mentioned the operating direction in the past.

[Mapmikey]

Major Fail!

Gates on the express lanes were frozen and had to be opened manually.  Even with opening time at 2 a.m. they were not able to open them fully until nearly 6.

Part of the reason for how long it took to do it manually is that all the ramps now have 10-16 gates each...

Mainline 95 from Dumfries to Woodbridge does not do well at all when the lanes are closed for whatever reason...a little better north of VA 123.

Mapmikey

[1995hoo]

We used them southbound from the Beltway to the Franconia—Springfield Parkway last night during the old HOV hours. I picked up my wife at her office after yesterday morning's Metro debacle resulted in her hitchhiking from Arlington Cemetery to her office and we took Mike's suggested route of I-66 west (HOV-2) to the Beltway HO/T lanes. Then, to avoid slow Van Dorn, I decided to try the new option we didn't have before. The light at the top of the ramp to the Parkway feels interminably long. We got there just as it turned red. But it still only took 31 minutes door-to-door. (Beltway toll $5.55, not sure what the I-95 toll was.) Saved at least half an hour compared to the other routes.

I may use the same route in reverse this morning.

[1995hoo]

I just came back down I-395 from DC. I suppose this was to be expected:

As I passed Turkeycock at about 8:53 AM, I glanced left into the northbound express lanes at their terminus. About six or seven SOVs all stopped on the gore area for the flyover back to the local lanes with their hazard flashers on. One was so brazen he was reading the paper. You guessed it–they were obviously waiting for 9:00 AM when HOV ends, just like people do at the Pentagon. I think this is arguably more dangerous than near the Pentagon because they were stopped on the gore area rather than on a shoulder, meaning you get traffic going by on either side.

I'll see later today whether the camera picked them up. Between sun glare and the location, I kind of doubt it.

[froggie]

Perhaps VSP should station a patrol vehicle there during the 8:50-9am timeframe.  That'll cut it down.

[1995hoo]

Perhaps VSP should station a patrol vehicle there during the 8:50-9am timeframe.  That'll cut it down.

I agree, and I think it probably needs to be parked there ahead of time because I've often seen what happens near the Pentagon when a police cruiser appears during the "shoulder-waiting" period: The shoulder-waiters bomb out into traffic with little regard to anyone's safety, causing near-misses and swerving, because all they care about is avoiding the ticket. If the cop is there ahead of time, the "gore-stoppers" won't have the opportunity to race out into traffic.


Edited to add: Here's a somewhat grainy video capture with the gore-stoppers circled. It's a bit hard to see. They all had their flashers on. (My camera's time-stamp is a few minutes off, BTW. The clock in the car, which gets the time from a GPS satellite, said 8:53.)

[mtantillo]

Just tell the cop your car broke down.

[1995hoo]

Just tell the cop your car broke down.

In law school we called that the laugh test–the argument isn't believable if you can't say it with a straight face.

My wife made an interesting point about the tolls tonight. If she drives to work, it's probably 45 minutes to an hour plus $10 to park (setting aside the cost of gas and depreciation). If she drives to the Metro, it's 45 minutes to an hour IF the trains run reliably (a massive IF), the train fare is $5.40 each way and the parking is $4.85, so the total is $15.65 (not counting gas and depreciation). If I drive her to the Metro, it's $10.80 and the time is about the same, maybe a bit less since she need not find parking. 

Viewed in that respect, if I drive her via the Beltway HO/T lanes and I-66, the rush hour toll of $5 to $6 isn't as much as it sounds because the cost is comparable to the other options and the trip is a lot faster (tonight I picked her up and we got home in half an hour going 65 to 70 mph most of the way). Considering what a debacle the Metrorail has been this week, that shorter trip is a good tradeoff right now. Of course there is the time it takes me to drive to her office (20 minutes today), so if the Metro were running reliably the cost/benefit consideration might be different, but the Metro has been a disaster this week. Yesterday she wound up hitchiking from Arlington on Cemetery to her office! I REALLY don't want my wife hitchiking! (Slugging would be different.)

[oscar]

Just tell the cop your car broke down.

In law school we called that the laugh test–--the argument isn't believable if you can't say it with a straight face.

I'm sure many people around here could lie through their teeth and still pass that test. 

Offering to call for a tow truck -- or occasionally stationing one near the gore point, ready to haul away "broken down" vehicles, or a VDOT safety patrol vehicle with someone who can diagnose alleged breakdowns -- might be needed to ratchet up the test.  If the cops could sometimes hold "broken down" vehicles until the safety patrol could come by and confirm that they were safe to drive, that might also promote honesty. 

[1995hoo]

On the Beltway they have those "Express Assist" trucks in the cutouts near some of the gantries. Don't know if that's also true on I-95, but if it is, they could put one of those there.

Dr. Gridlock and I tweeted them about it and they said they'll look into it, so we'll see....

[mtantillo]

Express assist is on 95 too, they park on the unused ramps (for example, the NB Express Turkeycock ramp is where one truck parks when the lanes are SB).

[1995hoo]

Express assist is on 95 too, they park on the unused ramps (for example, the NB Express Turkeycock ramp is where one truck parks when the lanes are SB).

They could probably park it somewhere in the blocked-off ramp area southbound traffic uses to enter in the afternoons, then.

Dr. Gridlock once pointed out that the Beltway express lanes are probably THE most closely-monitored stretch of highway this area of the country has ever seen. I assume that will also apply to the I-95 lanes. Hopefully it's apply more so given the lack of shoulders. Incidentally, last night when I drove into DC to pick up my wife there was an incident (don't want to say "a wreck" because I couldn't see well enough) in the right express lane just south of Turkeycock. I had to see most of it in my mirrors since I was going northbound. The assist team had two big flashing-arrow boards set up in advance of the incident and the red "X" was illuminated over that lane. Looked like they were handling it quite well. Traffic still slowed down way more than was probably needed, of course–especially for that spot, because you're coming out of the two-lane HOV facility and it'd be easy for traffic to maintain a column of twos past the incident. I suppose you do have merging traffic from the mainline there, of course, and those people would have to slam on the brakes. I'm still wary of the lack of a full shoulder on either side of the three-lane portion of the express lanes, but the use of the large flashing-arrow boards was a good step because I think the average driver will notice those more than the red "X" overhead (and we've all seen on I-66 how well some people obey the red "X" anyway).

[jeffandnicole]

Those emergency service patrol vehicles are there to assist people for minor issues.  If the driver isn't aware of what the minor issue is, a tow truck should be called pronto and the vehicle towed away.

If the car is on the shoulder still running with the driver reading a newspaper, that sounds like the car isn't driveable and the driver is waiting for assistance.  Either way, the car shouldn't be able to be driven away.

Wink wink.

Since pulling over for reasons other than an emergency on the shoulder is illegal, a $100 or so wakeup call will reduce/eliminate this practice pretty quick. 

[1995hoo]

....

Since pulling over for reasons other than an emergency on the shoulder is illegal, a $100 or so wakeup call will reduce/eliminate this practice pretty quick. 

Only if enforcement is fairly constant and merciless. There's occasional enforcement on the shoulder near the Pentagon, but the "shoulder-waiting" has persisted for at least 20 years now.



Separate question: Mapmikey and mtantillo, have you checked your online E-ZPass statements since I-95 tolling began? I'm curious how long it's taking for tolls to post for you. My $1.00 toll from New Year's Day just posted last night (it was not on there when I checked yesterday) and Sunday's toll isn't there yet. A week-long delay in posting tolls seems rather excessive, IMO. Beltway trips have consistently taken either four or five days (calendar days, not business days) to post. I wonder whether the explanation for the longer period would have something to do with the segments because the Post reported the tolling system will aggregate your segments into one single toll charge for a given trip (and, similarly and crucially, they'll aggregate them for violators so the bill received in the mail contains a single $12.50 fee, not $12.50 per segment).

[Mapmikey]

Mine has been charged through 12/31 which occurred on 1/8...

I have auto replenish which I just increased but I wonder if delaying charging accounts causes people to run out of balance.  The transaction summary treats each full trip as one item, then after one of them my reload occurred.

Mapmikey

[jeffandnicole]

Mine has been charged through 12/31 which occurred on 1/8...

I have auto replenish which I just increased but I wonder if delaying charging accounts causes people to run out of balance.  The transaction summary treats each full trip as one item, then after one of them my reload occurred.

Mapmikey

As long as the account holders has an automatic replenishment to their account, it will be seamless to them. As tolls have gone up since EZ Pass's inception, it's very easy for someone with a positive starting balance to drop below $0 after their account gets hit with the recent toll charges.  The system recognizes this, and will simply reload the proper amount that night.  The user incurs no penalties.

If the user doesn't have auto replenish, then they may have issues.

[mrsman]

Just tell the cop your car broke down.

In law school we called that the laugh test–the argument isn't believable if you can't say it with a straight face.

My wife made an interesting point about the tolls tonight. If she drives to work, it's probably 45 minutes to an hour plus $10 to park (setting aside the cost of gas and depreciation). If she drives to the Metro, it's 45 minutes to an hour IF the trains run reliably (a massive IF), the train fare is $5.40 each way and the parking is $4.85, so the total is $15.65 (not counting gas and depreciation). If I drive her to the Metro, it's $10.80 and the time is about the same, maybe a bit less since she need not find parking. 

Viewed in that respect, if I drive her via the Beltway HO/T lanes and I-66, the rush hour toll of $5 to $6 isn't as much as it sounds because the cost is comparable to the other options and the trip is a lot faster (tonight I picked her up and we got home in half an hour going 65 to 70 mph most of the way). Considering what a debacle the Metrorail has been this week, that shorter trip is a good tradeoff right now. Of course there is the time it takes me to drive to her office (20 minutes today), so if the Metro were running reliably the cost/benefit consideration might be different, but the Metro has been a disaster this week. Yesterday she wound up hitchiking from Arlington on Cemetery to her office! I REALLY don't want my wife hitchiking! (Slugging would be different.)

I'm glad that the I-66, Beltway HOT, I-95 HOT works for you, but to me it's a shame that you have to go so far out of your way to make the trip.    Basically, the more direct way of using I-395 is more time consuming, even with HOT lanes beginning at Edsall.

[mrsman]

I just came back down I-395 from DC. I suppose this was to be expected:

As I passed Turkeycock at about 8:53 AM, I glanced left into the northbound express lanes at their terminus. About six or seven SOVs all stopped on the gore area for the flyover back to the local lanes with their hazard flashers on. One was so brazen he was reading the paper. You guessed it–they were obviously waiting for 9:00 AM when HOV ends, just like people do at the Pentagon. I think this is arguably more dangerous than near the Pentagon because they were stopped on the gore area rather than on a shoulder, meaning you get traffic going by on either side.

I'll see later today whether the camera picked them up. Between sun glare and the location, I kind of doubt it.

Yes, another hazard due to the inconsistent treatment of the lanes in Arlington County and in the rest of NoVa.  The drivers should be ticketed if there is no safe place for them to wait.

Another idea might be to extend HOV hours (Arlington County section).  Perhaps until 9:30 a.m. in the morning and 6:30 p.m. in the evening.

[cpzilliacus]

I just came back down I-395 from DC. I suppose this was to be expected:

As I passed Turkeycock at about 8:53 AM, I glanced left into the northbound express lanes at their terminus. About six or seven SOVs all stopped on the gore area for the flyover back to the local lanes with their hazard flashers on. One was so brazen he was reading the paper. You guessed it–they were obviously waiting for 9:00 AM when HOV ends, just like people do at the Pentagon. I think this is arguably more dangerous than near the Pentagon because they were stopped on the gore area rather than on a shoulder, meaning you get traffic going by on either side.

I'll see later today whether the camera picked them up. Between sun glare and the location, I kind of doubt it.

Yes, another hazard due to the inconsistent treatment of the lanes in Arlington County and in the rest of NoVa.  The drivers should be ticketed if there is no safe place for them to wait.

Another idea might be to extend HOV hours (Arlington County section).  Perhaps until 9:30 a.m. in the morning and 6:30 p.m. in the evening.

In my personal opinion, an even better idea - just extend the 95 Express lanes all the way up to the Potomac River, and encourage D.C. to make a deal with Transurban for crossing the river on the (former) HOV lane spans.