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Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

Started by mtantillo, August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM

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sprjus4

Quote from: Jmiles32 on January 29, 2019, 07:57:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
Quote from: Jmiles32 on January 29, 2019, 07:23:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 06:46:58 PM
Quote from: Jmiles32 on January 29, 2019, 01:51:33 PM
Hoping that last part regarding the Occoquan auxiliarily lane is incorrect. Extending the southbound VA-123 onramp to the westbound Prince William Parkway offramp does not really solve the issue of the terrible 4th gp lane merge. A better solution would be for it to continue past the VA-123 interchange and turn into an exit only lane right before the Prince William Parkway, similarly to how the express lanes currently go from 3 to 2 lanes at the same exit. Either way big news!
I was thinking the same thing. Doing an auxiliary lane is a terrible idea. That should tie into that fourth lane. Driver's have a better opportunity to merge left at that point rather than crammed between US 1, the bridge, and VA-123. There could also be better signage if the fourth lane is fully extended. "Exit Only 2 Miles", etc.

The ultimate goal, which is proposed to be studied, should be to widen I-95 to 8 general purpose lanes from the Occoquan River to Fredericksburg, where that fourth lane could tie into the under construction C/D lanes.

No way in hell I-95 gets 8 general purpose lanes all the way to Garrisonville unless either tolls or Transurban is involved. Since the deal to extend the lanes south of Garrisonville to Fredericksburg is different there may be a chance here, but IMO unlikely in the near future. Unfortunately this was VA's best chance to significantly fix the Occoquan bottleneck and it appears as if they failed miserably. No wonder Transurban has no problem with the auxiliarily lane since it likely won't do much to resolve the issue. I swear either the officials think they're fooling everyone or Transurban really is just that much smarter.

An additional lane, in combination with interchange reconfigurations, aux lanes between all exits, tackled by a $1-2 billion project would severely help the corridor. You would have continuously 4 lanes in each direction, plus 5 in each direction between interchanges. Look at I-66 outside the beltway - exactly what's happening right now with a multi-billion dollar project to fix it.

That's exactly what should have happened, but unfortunately since VA was relatively new to P3 deals at the time, it did not and thus a horrific contract was signed that continues to screw over I-95 today. Transurban, a private company looking to make a profit, has zero interest in allowing for VA to freely improve I-95 thereby negatively affecting their collected toll revenue. The only options for VA are to either make more deals, pay compensation, or do nothing. Glad they at least got the I-66 project right.
Judging by the way VDOT likes to operate, I think they've selected the do nothing option. Ahh, US 301 is a nice road however.


Beltway

#1276
You posted enough strawman to pose a fire hazard.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
They screwed up badly with the Transurban deal. I-95 has been a mess for years, and they thought HO/T lanes would solve all the issues.

The reversible roadway extension and widening to 3 lanes on part of it, has been planned since the 1990s.  -Nobody- said that "HO/T lanes would solve all the issues".  It was one project to help traffic conditions.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
They should've factored additional GP lanes in. The argument that "new general purpose lanes won't help"

Nobody said that, in fact they built that type project from Newington to Woodbridge.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
isn't true when traffic counts are over 200,000.

In another highways forum posters in the S.F. Bay area say there are hundreds of miles of freeways at that volume level and on no more than six lanes and with the concomitant severe congestion.  One of the problems in rapidly growing major metros.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
An additional lane, in combination with interchange reconfigurations, aux lanes between all exits, tackled by a $1-2 billion project would severely help the corridor. You would have continuously 4 lanes in each direction, plus 5 in each direction between interchanges.

Since 2000 there has been $5 billion in I-95 expansion projects between Fredericksburg and just across the Potomac River at MD-414, and that includes the ones now underway.  I-495 supplements I-95, so let's include the $2 billion I-495 HOT lanes project. 

That is $7 billion.  Now you are demanding another billion or two and you want it now.

Money doesn't grow on trees.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
Look at I-66 outside the beltway - exactly what's happening right now with a multi-billion dollar project to fix it.

A PPTA project with tolled express lanes.  So let's work toward getting one to widen I-95 to 4 lanes each way between Woodbridge and Fredericksburg.  Maybe all the way down to I-295.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
The reversible roadway extension and widening to 3 lanes on part of it, has been planned since the 1990s.  -Nobody- said that "HO/T lanes would solve all the issues".  It was one project to help traffic conditions.
Signing a poor deal with a private investor who controls the Express Lanes, and prohibits VDOT from widening the general purpose lanes without compensation. VDOT has wanted to widen the parts to 8 lanes recently (most notably from VA-123 to VA-234 a few years back), but have not advanced due to this. You can argue all day about how P3's are amazing and they work great, but accept the reality - there's issues with them, and this along with the ERC deal in Norfolk that VDOT got into were poor deals.

The reversible roadway extension and widening to 3 lanes was likely to be done with HOV lanes and under VDOT, not under some foreign company that now can prevent I-95 from being widened without VDOT paying them some more over the billions they're going to collect from HO/T tolls.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
Since 2000 there has been $5 billion in I-95 expansion projects between Fredericksburg and just across the Potomac River at MD-414, and that includes the ones now underway.  I-495 supplements I-95, so let's include the $2 billion I-495 HOT lanes project. 

That is $7 billion.  Now you are demanding another billion or two and you want it now.

Money doesn't grow on trees.
A good $3 or $4 billion of that comes from HO/T lanes and P3s. And just about all of the billions (in public funding and tax dollars) you mentioned have happened north the Occoquan River. South of the Occoquan, there's been small projects to redo interchanges, and off the main highway work, but I've not seen one additional lane added to I-95 since the 80s using tax dollars or public funds. The I-95 Southbound Rappahannock River Crossing Project for $132 million is the first, and while that's a good step, it's nowhere close to what's needed.

You might argue "$5 or $7 billion has been spent", but only about $1 or $2 billion comes from public funds and tax dollars, and have all happened north of the Occoquan, or on interchange improvements that don't affect the mainline of I-95 itself. It's a poor argument to make.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
A PPTA project with tolled express lanes.  So let's work toward getting one to widen I-95 to 4 lanes each way between Woodbridge and Fredericksburg.  Maybe all the way down to I-295.
Correct. We already have the tolled express lanes, let's add more general capacity. A 4th FREE lane from Woodbridge to Fredericksburg, and eventually to I-295. Stop pushing for more toll lanes, there's already enough of them, and it's been proven by the existing ones that it does not do much in the way to enhance capacity.

Jmiles32

#1278
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 10:35:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
A PPTA project with tolled express lanes.  So let's work toward getting one to widen I-95 to 4 lanes each way between Woodbridge and Fredericksburg.  Maybe all the way down to I-295.
Correct. We already have the tolled express lanes, let's add more general capacity. A 4th FREE lane from Woodbridge to Fredericksburg, and eventually to I-295. Stop pushing for more toll lanes, there's already enough of them, and it's been proven by the existing ones that it does not do much in the way to enhance capacity.

The question is how the hell does VDOT do that? There is absolutely no current funding for it. Plus if they were serious about adding a 4th lane on I-95 south of the Occoquan, then one would think that they would have quickly jumped on the opportunity to fund projects that would have added a 4th lane on I-95 in both directions between Exit 130(VA-3) and Exit 126(US-1/US-17) and northbound between Exit 133(US-17) and Exit 136(Centrepoint Parkway). While there's still a chance these projects get funded under the final CTB resolution in June, it appears highly unlikely.
Aspiring Transportation Planner at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies!

Beltway

#1279
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 10:35:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
The reversible roadway extension and widening to 3 lanes on part of it, has been planned since the 1990s.  -Nobody- said that "HO/T lanes would solve all the issues".  It was one project to help traffic conditions.
Signing a poor deal with a private investor who controls the Express Lanes, and prohibits VDOT from widening the general purpose lanes without compensation. VDOT has wanted to widen the parts to 8 lanes recently (most notably from VA-123 to VA-234 a few years back), but have not advanced due to this. You can argue all day about how P3's are amazing and they work great, but accept the reality - there's issues with them, and this along with the ERC deal in Norfolk that VDOT got into were poor deals.

I only see them as one funding tool, and those projects would not have gotten built if not for these PPTA projects.  And once again, Transurban would have to prove that their revenue would be adversely affected before any compensation would be tendered.

The mistake with the ERT tunnels project was with not utilizing the PPTA proposal in 2000 when it would have cost $600 million.  By waiting as long as they did after the massive increases in the cost of highway construction from 2005 onward, it cost $1.4 billion for the construction, meaning much higher tolls.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 10:35:58 PM
The reversible roadway extension and widening to 3 lanes was likely to be done with HOV lanes and under VDOT,

See above, no they weren't going to be built any time soon, nor were they going to allow tolled SOVs which helps get more traffic out of the G/P lanes.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 10:35:58 PM
You might argue "$5 or $7 billion has been spent", but only about $1 or $2 billion comes from public funds and tax dollars, and have all happened north of the Occoquan, or on interchange improvements that don't affect the mainline of I-95 itself. It's a poor argument to make.

I count $5 billion in public funding and tax dollars, out of the $7 billion. 

This what "happened north of the Occoquan" is what is a poor argument to make, for several reasons, mainly addressing the most critical problems first.  Do you think that the Woodrow Wilson Bridge Project should have not yet been built?  The Springfield Interchange Project?

A billion will be spent for the two Fredericksburg C-D projects and the reversible extension to Falmouth.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 29, 2019, 10:35:58 PM
Correct. We already have the tolled express lanes, let's add more general capacity. A 4th FREE lane from Woodbridge to Fredericksburg, and eventually to I-295. Stop pushing for more toll lanes, there's already enough of them, and it's been proven by the existing ones that it does not do much in the way to enhance capacity.

A 4th lane only adds half the peak capacity as does a 2-lane roadway, and 1/3 that of a 3-lane roadway.  If you have a way to fund that without tolls, without using the Herr Krugmann school of economics, I would like to hear it, but you need to face the facts that tolls are part of today's highway funding toolbox. 

Texas has 28 tollroads, is building more, and has a fine highway system overall.  Ditto for Florida, almost the same number of tollroads, and both states have fine economies.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
The mistake with the ERT tunnels project was with not utilizing the PPTA proposal in 2000 when it would have cost $600 million.  By waiting as long as they did after the massive increases in the cost of highway construction from 2005 onward, it cost $1.4 billion for the construction, meaning much higher tolls.
Elizabeth River Crossings had some major issues once the tunnel opened - poor operations, people getting toll violation fees of thousands of dollars, I believe there were lawsuits filed on them as well. They've finally -somewhat- cleaned up their act, but they started the first few years of operations pretty rough.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
See above, no they weren't going to be built any time soon, nor were they going to allow tolled SOVs which helps get more traffic out of the G/P lanes.
It's funny, the old HOV lanes were only HOV during rush hour. All other times, they were free, which traffic does frequently today occur during those off-peak times, especially at the Occoquan River. During off-peak hours, SOV vehicles could use the reversible lanes for free, and bypass that congestion. Switching it to 24/7 had an impact. A lot of the vehicles chose now not to pay, and sit in that congestion. So in reality, the HO/T conversion to 24/7 on the existing reversible lanes only added back more traffic, to suffer the brand new poorly designed merge at the Occoquan River.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
This what "happened north of the Occoquan" is what is a poor argument to make, for several reasons, mainly addressing the most critical problems first.  Do you think that the Woodrow Wilson Bridge Project should have not yet been built?  The Springfield Interchange Project?
The Springfield Interchange and Woodrow Wilson Bridge projects were vital projects and severely helped. They both wrapped up over ten years ago, now it's time to move south.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
A billion will be spent for the two Fredericksburg C-D projects and the reversible extension to Falmouth.
The Southbound Rappahannock River Crossing project will cost $132 million in public funding and tax dollars. The reversible extension to Falmouth and the Northbound Rappahannock River Crossing is being done under the P3 and funded privately with no tax dollars. Similar to the other reversible extensions, plus all the HO/T lanes on I-495.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
A 4th lane only adds half the peak capacity as does a 2-lane roadway, and 1/3 that of a 3-lane roadway.
You need to check something here. The HO/T lane extension helped to some extent, however it only benefits those who use it the most, and everybody else slightly. A new, free lane in each direction would alleviate traffic more, because there would be obviously more people to use the new lane. Traffic runs smoothly north of the Occoquan when it's 4 lanes in each direction, also on I-495. A combination of the HO/T lanes and 4 GP lanes in each direction help the most, as proven by my above two examples.

Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
Texas has 28 tollroads, is building more, and has a fine highway system overall.  Ditto for Florida, almost the same number of tollroads, and both states have fine economies.
The only areas in Texas which have toll roads is in the Austin, Dallas / Fort Worth, and Houston metros. The difference there is the way the roads work. Texas does highways differently if you didn't know - frontage roads on both sides, with slip on and off ramps, with u-turn points at the interchanges. Most of the roads are built strictly with this frontage road layout with a large median. In the future, freeway lanes with overpasses / slip off-on ramps are built, and yes those sometimes are tolled. The frontage road with the traffic signals is always free. There's also other times, like Beltway 99 in Houston, it's all being constructed on new location. And it's still being built with new frontage roads to provide a free alternative in the same corridor. But no pre-existing highways are re-tolled or have tolls added to them, with the exception of HO/T lanes, and those also come with new GP capacity every time, or were existing HOV lanes converted to part time HO/T lanes. An example is the Katy Freeway outside Houston - new GP + HO/T capacity.

San Antonio has a massive freeway network - and no toll roads whatsoever. They're doing massive expansion projects on Loop 1604 from 2 lanes in each direction to 4 GP lanes + 1 HOV lane in each direction, along with upgrading U.S. 281 north of San Antonio to freeway by constructing new frontage roads, and freeway mainline in the middle. These projects are costing billions, and many of them were originally considered for tolls, along with HO/T lanes on I-35. All of the toll plans have dropped because new public / tax money is coming up, and these projects are advancing without any use of tolls. The I-35 HO/T lanes have been canceled as well.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
The mistake with the ERT tunnels project was with not utilizing the PPTA proposal in 2000 when it would have cost $600 million.  By waiting as long as they did after the massive increases in the cost of highway construction from 2005 onward, it cost $1.4 billion for the construction, meaning much higher tolls.
Elizabeth River Crossings had some major issues once the tunnel opened - poor operations, people getting toll violation fees of thousands of dollars, I believe there were lawsuits filed on them as well. They've finally -somewhat- cleaned up their act, but they started the first few years of operations pretty rough.

A mega project that was completed on-time and on-budget, and with no problems with the tunnel or highways.  Being able to do that routinely is very important, and VDOT and other Virginia highway authorities do just that.

Worldwide it has been a joke with so many mega-projects being way over budget and/or way behind schedule.

The tolling management problems were a separate matter from the engineering and construction of the facility.

And how nice it would have been to have ERT Tunnels project completed in 2004 for that much lower cost.  Then other major projects could have been funded and moved forward.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
It's funny, the old HOV lanes were only HOV during rush hour. All other times, they were free, which traffic does frequently today occur during those off-peak times, especially at the Occoquan River. During off-peak hours, SOV vehicles could use the reversible lanes for free, and bypass that congestion. Switching it to 24/7 had an impact. A lot of the vehicles chose now not to pay, and sit in that congestion. So in reality, the HO/T conversion to 24/7 on the existing reversible lanes only added back more traffic, to suffer the brand new poorly designed merge at the Occoquan River.

The tolls are low during the off-peak hours, and plenty of people use them, especially when there is congestion on the GP lanes, and many motorists have apps to apprise them of congestion problems ahead.

During peak hours SOV and HOV-2 can use the express lanes while previously they were prohibited.  Overall many more vehicles are removed from the GP lanes than in the HOV days.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
The Springfield Interchange and Woodrow Wilson Bridge projects were vital projects and severely helped. They both wrapped up over ten years ago, now it's time to move south.

Incorrect.  WWB was completed in 2013 and SIIP Phase 8 in 2012.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
A billion will be spent for the two Fredericksburg C-D projects and the reversible extension to Falmouth.
The Southbound Rappahannock River Crossing project will cost $132 million in public funding and tax dollars. The reversible extension to Falmouth and the Northbound Rappahannock River Crossing is being done under the P3 and funded privately with no tax dollars. Similar to the other reversible extensions, plus all the HO/T lanes on I-495.

The Northbound Rappahannock River Crossing project will also cost $132 million and it will not be tolled.  Construction begins in 2020 so it was fair enough to include that.  And $700 million for the reversible extension.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
A 4th lane only adds half the peak capacity as does a 2-lane roadway, and 1/3 that of a 3-lane roadway.
You need to check something here. The HO/T lane extension helped to some extent, however it only benefits those who use it the most, and everybody else slightly.

"Baloney".  In peak hours it handles nearly the maximum freeway volume of 2,000 vehicles per lane per hour, and is dynamically priced to keep traffic moving freely.   On 2 lanes that is nearly 4,000 vehicles per hour that are not in the GP lanes.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
A new, free lane in each direction would alleviate traffic more, because there would be obviously more people to use the new lane.

If that can be afforded, otherwise a new tolled express lane (not HOT) in each direction would work just as well.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
Traffic runs smoothly north of the Occoquan when it's 4 lanes in each direction, also on I-495. A combination of the HO/T lanes and 4 GP lanes in each direction help the most, as proven by my above two examples.

What examples?  Traffic on I-95 in Fairfax County and on I-495 does not "run smoothly" at all times by any stretch.  Having 4 GP lanes each way helps but is not a panacea.

What would make a real difference in the Washington area would be a tolled outer beltway or tolled western bypass freeway, like what Houston has with the Sam Houston Tollway, rather than focus only on upgrading I-95 and I-495.  The Western Transportation Corridor would have connected to I-95 near Falmouth at Exit 136 Centerport Parkway.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 07:26:21 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 29, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
Texas has 28 tollroads, is building more, and has a fine highway system overall.  Ditto for Florida, almost the same number of tollroads, and both states have fine economies.
The only areas in Texas which have toll roads is in the Austin, Dallas / Fort Worth, and Houston metros.

And 2/3 of the state population lives there, in a very large population state.  Signalized frontage roads are no substitute or alternate for freeway capacity, they have 1/3 the per lane capacity, and 1/2 to 1/3 the average speeds.  Doesn't matter if a tollroad is on new location, it is a major highway facility nonetheless.

The fact is that states like Texas and Florida are very heavily tolled with highways built long after the "turnpike era" of the still very heavily tolled northeastern states.  We can add Oklahoma with its extensive system of tollroads.

I don't know why you hate tollroads and HOT lanes so much, they are simply part of the toolbox that some states are using in conjunction with tax funded projects, and you can't use an argument that it is hurting their economies, because those states have fine economies.

Maybe you are gunning for huge tax increases for highways?  The states and metro transport authorities have done plenty of that over the last 20 years.

The federal road taxes have not been raised since 1992.  If you want large increases in tax funded toll-free highway projects, that is where to focus your advocacy.

The few major underwater tunnels financed toll-free in the U.S. were funded under the original Interstate system that provided 90% FHWA funding.  The only way to restore being able to do something like that is to increase the federal road taxes to something like 1992 levels + inflation since then.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

#1282
Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
The tolls are low during the off-peak hours
Incorrect. Frequently, starting around 2 or 2:30, there's a backup that's formed near the Occoquan River, and tolls are not cheap at that point. In the past, SB HOV lanes ran from 3:30 - 6PM. At 2 or 2:30, you could hop in the lanes SOV, bypass the congestion, and pay no toll or violate HOV.

On weekends, same deal. There's congestion, and SOV could bypass it in the HOV lanes without a toll or violate HOV.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
and plenty of people use them, especially when there is congestion on the GP lanes, and many motorists have apps to apprise them of congestion problems ahead.
Correct. HOV 3+ make up the majority, plus the few rich people who feel like paying $20 one-way to avoid congestion. The lanes in DC on I-95 and I-495 are commonly referred to as "Lexus Lanes", and that name implies it all. What do you say to the daily motorists who cannot afford $1,000 a month to have a smooth ride daily? More toll lanes, or no GP improvements? Get into a carpool or suck it up?

"The article also stated that 40 percent of the drivers using the express toll lanes make more than $100,000 a year and the typical express user pays for house-cleaning services and grocery delivery. Furthermore, the article said, "about one-third of those users said they don't mind the tolls because their employers pick up the bill."  Certainly, the typical drivers on these highways do not make more than $100,000 or have their toll expenses paid by their employers. Rather, it is the subset of drivers who are wealthier or have access to special payments who can afford to use the express toll lanes. This is precisely why these expensive toll roads (ranging from about $6 to $46) are considered Lexus lanes."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/virginias-lexus-lanes-deserve-their-nickname/2018/09/26/4eeb182e-c101-11e8-9f4f-a1b7af255aa5_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c5a97f9e6887

And I know you're going to throw the standard argument out there - it's a newspaper article and it's usually wrong. This term and the fact that the average user cannot afford the Express Lanes is factual, and cannot be disputed as much as you want to believe.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
The Northbound Rappahannock River Crossing project will also cost $132 million and it will not be tolled.  Construction begins in 2020 so it was fair enough to include that.  And $700 million for the reversible extension.
The Northbound Rappahannock River Crossing will not be tolled itself, but money collected from tolls on the HO/T lane extension are paying for it, it's a privately funded project. I've said it before, but it seems to slip past your head, the $700 million HO/T extension is being funded privately and via tolls.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
"Baloney".  In peak hours it handles nearly the maximum freeway volume of 2,000 vehicles per lane per hour, and is dynamically priced to keep traffic moving freely.   On 2 lanes that is nearly 4,000 vehicles per hour that are not in the GP lanes.
"peak hours". There's plenty of times off-peak there's recurring delay due to only being 3 lanes wide carrying 200,000 AADT. Not to mention, a majority of that traffic is HOV anyways, or people who can afford a $20 toll or see that more beneficial than waiting in traffic. There's no way me, or the majority of I-95 traffic would rather pay $20 than sit in traffic. We want improvements that benefit everybody, not just those hopping in the lanes HOV or paying the expensive tolls cause they can afford it.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
If that can be afforded, otherwise a new tolled express lane (not HOT) in each direction would work just as well.
A strictly tolled lane that wouldn't include HOV? No shot. That proposal is horrible, majority of the traffic on the Express Lanes is HOV, and if you restricted that only to toll payers, those lanes would quickly bankrupt.

Also, we don't need more toll lanes. Just because tolls are there doesn't mean we should just blow the shot for future funding for GP widening by committing to tolled lanes that would quickly bankrupt.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
What examples?  Traffic on I-95 in Fairfax County and on I-495 does not "run smoothly" at all times by any stretch.  Having 4 GP lanes each way helps but is not a panacea.
It's certainly better than I-95, that's for sure.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
What would make a real difference in the Washington area would be a tolled outer beltway or tolled western bypass freeway, like what Houston has with the Sam Houston Tollway, rather than focus only on upgrading I-95 and I-495.  The Western Transportation Corridor would have connected to I-95 near Falmouth at Exit 136 Centerport Parkway.
I completely agree. The only issue is everybody is so focused on fixing I-95, mainly because the congestion on there is caused by commuter traffic. If there was more thru-traffic choking things up, I'd understand more. Sam Houston Tollway is a bad example IMHO because it's mainly a commuter corridor, a better one is like SH-130 around Austin. 80 miles long, 85 MPH. A beautiful road, rural, no congestion, nothing. Beats I-35 any day.

For a Washington Bypass however, I'd recommend following U.S. 301 to the east, and starting south of congestion-prone Fredericksburg. Starting at Fredericksburg heading north, is a major commuter road. Long-distance traffic would leave I-95 before there on the eastern toll bypass paralleling U.S. 301.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
Doesn't matter if a tollroad is on new location, it is a major highway facility nonetheless.
Tolling an existing highway directly impacts people, constructing a whole new facility tolled only offers new options, and doesn't place burden on people. Also, adding tolled capacity usually means there won't be free improvements anytime soon, as seen by I-95. The first leg of I-95 got widened to 4 lanes when there was HOV, but as soon as HO/T took affect and Transurban ran the show, no other improvements since.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
I don't know why you hate tollroads and HOT lanes so much
1. A lot of people share the same opinion as me, and would rather pay more in taxes to get these improvements free. And currently, there's higher taxes up there, and you pay tolls. Not the average driver can afford as I've said above.
2. I don't HO/T lanes, for instance I do support them on I-95 and I-495, and agree with the proposed extensions south and north to Maryland, however Virginia has been so focused on HO/T lanes, HO/T lanes, HO/T lanes, and haven't done any free improvements to the entire corridor. Only more HO/T lanes, HO/T lanes, or tolls. I don't see a balance of tax spending and tolls with this. There's been billions spent on HO/T lanes, and only about $200 million for actual GP improvements south of the Occoquan River. None of the GP improvements have been extensive either, only spot improvements like Fredericksburg, which is needed, but there needs to be more, spanning up the Occoquan. Hundreds of people would agree with me, this isn't just me.

What about the state's without tolls? The metro areas without tolls? I've mentioned San Antonio, a large population center with lots of freeways, none of which tolled. You yourself have said in the past San Antonio is a bigger area than Austin, which does have toll roads.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
The federal road taxes have not been raised since 1992.  If you want large increases in tax funded toll-free highway projects, that is where to focus your advocacy.
I think many people would rather pay slightly more in taxes and know that roads would begin to get done without tolling. I agree with this. There was a tax increase in Hampton Roads to pay for the I-64 Peninsula Widening, I-264 Interchange Improvements, I-64 High Rise Bridge, HRBT Expansion, and that's over $6 billion in improvements, all tax or publicly funded.

Beltway

I will cut to the chase with a couple basic important (to me) points.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 05:42:43 PM
HOV 3+ make up the majority, plus the few rich people who feel like paying $20 one-way to avoid congestion. The lanes in DC on I-95 and I-495 are commonly referred to as "Lexus Lanes", and that name implies it all. What do you say to the daily motorists who cannot afford $1,000 a month to have a smooth ride daily? More toll lanes, or no GP improvements? Get into a carpool or suck it up?
"The article also stated that 40 percent of the drivers using the express toll lanes make more than $100,000 a year and the typical express user pays for house-cleaning services and grocery delivery. Furthermore, the article said, "about one-third of those users said they don't mind the tolls because their employers pick up the bill."  Certainly, the typical drivers on these highways do not make more than $100,000 or have their toll expenses paid by their employers. Rather, it is the subset of drivers who are wealthier or have access to special payments who can afford to use the express toll lanes. This is precisely why these expensive toll roads (ranging from about $6 to $46) are considered Lexus lanes."
And I know you're going to throw the standard argument out there - it's a newspaper article and it's usually wrong. This term and the fact that the average user cannot afford the Express Lanes is factual, and cannot be disputed as much as you want to believe.

Well, it -is- a letter to the editor and not a newspaper article ... are you aware that $100,000 per year is not a high salary in the Washington metro area market?  Certainly not "wealthy".  Between the high cost of living and the huge number of professional level jobs, it is not a high salary.  Nevertheless, according to that letter, 60% make less than that, and it is correct that many employers in the Washington area provide subsidies for things like Metrorail and Metrobus trips, and for commuter tolls -- it is a fact of life there especially for federal civil service employees and federal contract employees.

A Senior IT Specialist in the Richmond market makes that salary on average, even with its much lower cost of living and generally much lower salaries.

"Lexus Lanes" is just a cute alliteration.  Lexus is a very nice car but as Japan's Buick (Buick has also been called America's Lexus) it is not that big of a deal to own one, especially if you live and work in Washington metro.

If indeed the peak capacity is mostly taken by HOV-3+, then not very many SOV or HOV-2 would be able to use them in the first place.  The important thing is that the capacity is being well used.

Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
"Baloney". 
Thick too!!!

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 30, 2019, 05:42:43 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 30, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
The federal road taxes have not been raised since 1992.  If you want large increases in tax funded toll-free highway projects, that is where to focus your advocacy.
I think many people would rather pay slightly more in taxes and know that roads would begin to get done without tolling. I agree with this. There was a tax increase in Hampton Roads to pay for the I-64 Peninsula Widening, I-264 Interchange Improvements, I-64 High Rise Bridge, HRBT Expansion, and that's over $6 billion in improvements, all tax or publicly funded.

It wouldn't be just slightly more in taxes ... it would be a lot more.  Hey, I would be in favor of adding an untolled GP lane each way on I-95 between VA-123 and I-295, and if a way can be found I would surely support it.

Raise the federal road user taxes, considerably.
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froggie

Quote from: BeltwayLexus is a very nice car but as Japan's Buick (Buick has also been called America's Lexus)

We always called them the "expensive Toyota".  Just like Audi is the "expensive VW", Infiniti is the "expensive Nissan", and so on...

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on January 31, 2019, 08:06:36 AM
Quote from: BeltwayLexus is a very nice car but as Japan's Buick (Buick has also been called America's Lexus)
We always called them the "expensive Toyota".  Just like Audi is the "expensive VW", Infiniti is the "expensive Nissan", and so on...

Plus there plenty of studies that document the benefits of HOT lanes in general, and that of HOT lanes over HOV lanes, including addressing the argument that they only benefit the "wealthy".

HOT Lanes, Cool Facts
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop12031/fhwahop12027/index.htm
Excerpts:

What about Equity? Are HOT Lanes More of a Burden on Lower-Income Drivers?

Research on I-394, SR 167, and I-15 indicates that drivers of all socioeconomic backgrounds support HOT lanes. In fact, data from the San Diego Association of Governments indicate that the lowest income group expressed stronger support from the project than the highest income group. Research shows that people of all income levels support HOT lanes. Users of all incomes see the value in having a reliable trip when they need it. A 2004-2006 longitudinal panel survey of I-394 residents in Minnesota found support levels at over 60 percent for the congestion priced HOT lane. This number varies only slightly when sorted by income levels, gender, and education levels, suggesting that the arrangement is perceived as equitable. I-15 in San Diego had a 77 percent approval rating after opening with nominal differences between high and low income users. Specific focus groups of low-income travelers in Washington found that low income drivers are typically as supportive, if not more supportive, of the HOT lanes concept than other drivers.
. . . . .

The operating projects enjoy support from both users and non-users. While most people don't use the HOT lane every day, research shows that travelers like having a choice in their travel options. On I-25 in Denver, 62 percent of survey respondents say they use the Express Lanes because it saves time. Likewise in Houston, focus group respondents thought that using the HOT lane saved them as much as 50 percent of total commute travel time. Reliability is also often cited as a benefit of the HOT lane. In San Diego and Miami, users there want the projects expanded.
. . . . .

HOT lanes provide mobility options for individual drivers while encouraging the use of transit and carpooling. Tolls collected from HOT lanes can supplement the operations, enforcement and maintenance costs for the facilities. Even buses benefit from HOT lanes–research shows that communities with HOT lanes are often able to increase transit service as was the case with I-15 in San Diego. Solo drivers know they can count on getting where they need to be on time.

For example, Minneapolis has increased the number of vehicles using the I-394 MnPASS lanes by 33 percent since the facility's opening in 2005 without degrading transit and HOV use. Furthermore, travel speeds of 50 to 55 mph have been maintained for 95 percent of the time in the lanes. Denver originally projected 500 toll payers during the peak hour travel along I-25 but in fact achieved 1,400 in the first year of operation. Use of the I-25 HOT lanes has grown by almost 18 percent since the HOT lanes opened in 2006 and the lanes remain uncongested. Additionally, transit ridership in the HOT lanes has remained high.
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vdeane

With certain companies subsidizing tolls for commuters, that makes it seem almost like they're paying the government to ensure that their employees don't have to sit in traffic on the way in to work.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

#1287
Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2019, 01:22:45 PM
With certain companies subsidizing tolls for commuters, that makes it seem almost like they're paying the government to ensure that their employees don't have to sit in traffic on the way in to work.

It is a benefit that helps attract and retain employees, helps them financially as well as in commute time.

Many metros have similar benefits.  The last 20 years that I worked in the VDOT Central Office I paid nothing for transportation to and from work.  I had a VDOT-issued passcard that provided free rides on the GRTC transit bus.  I walked 1/2 mile to and from the bus stop so my car remained in my driveway.  The bus stopped right in front of the VDOT Central Office.  Door-to-door commute time was typically about 30 minutes, the trip was 7 miles and of that 5 miles was on freeway, it is an express bus.

FHWA provides funding for an incentive system to state DOTs that provides employee subsidies for things like bus transit, rail transit, car pooling and van pooling, and maybe for tolls but I am not sure about that.

Many private sector employers have similar type employee benefits.
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sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on January 31, 2019, 05:44:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2019, 01:22:45 PM
With certain companies subsidizing tolls for commuters, that makes it seem almost like they're paying the government to ensure that their employees don't have to sit in traffic on the way in to work.

It is a benefit that helps attract and retain employees, helps them financially as well as in commute time.

Many metros have similar benefits.  The last 20 years that I worked in the VDOT Central Office I paid nothing for transportation to and from work.  I had a VDOT-issued passcard that provided free rides on the GRTC transit bus.  I walked 1/2 mile to and from the bus stop so my car remained in my driveway.  The bus stopped right in front of the VDOT Central Office.  Door-to-door commute time was typically about 30 minutes, the trip was 7 miles and of that 5 miles was on freeway, it is an express bus.

FHWA provides funding for an incentive system to state DOTs that provides employee subsidies for things like bus transit, rail transit, car pooling and van pooling, and maybe for tolls but I am not sure about that.

Many private sector employers have similar type employee benefits.
I've heard similar stories in Downtown Norfolk with the lightrail (it actually is useful in Downtown) for government employers. They do have certain gov't offices in downtown.

vdeane

Quote from: Beltway on January 31, 2019, 05:44:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2019, 01:22:45 PM
With certain companies subsidizing tolls for commuters, that makes it seem almost like they're paying the government to ensure that their employees don't have to sit in traffic on the way in to work.

It is a benefit that helps attract and retain employees, helps them financially as well as in commute time.

Many metros have similar benefits.  The last 20 years that I worked in the VDOT Central Office I paid nothing for transportation to and from work.  I had a VDOT-issued passcard that provided free rides on the GRTC transit bus.  I walked 1/2 mile to and from the bus stop so my car remained in my driveway.  The bus stopped right in front of the VDOT Central Office.  Door-to-door commute time was typically about 30 minutes, the trip was 7 miles and of that 5 miles was on freeway, it is an express bus.

FHWA provides funding for an incentive system to state DOTs that provides employee subsidies for things like bus transit, rail transit, car pooling and van pooling, and maybe for tolls but I am not sure about that.

Many private sector employers have similar type employee benefits.

Transit I've heard of, but not tolls (aside from the Thruway Authority, that is - and the Thruway no longer offers that).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2019, 07:55:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 31, 2019, 05:44:05 PM
FHWA provides funding for an incentive system to state DOTs that provides employee subsidies for things like bus transit, rail transit, car pooling and van pooling, and maybe for tolls but I am not sure about that.
Many private sector employers have similar type employee benefits.
Transit I've heard of, but not tolls (aside from the Thruway Authority, that is - and the Thruway no longer offers that).

I'm sure some do, obviously it would require a tollway oriented on the downtown in the first place.
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Mapmikey

The editorial on the toll lanes also interprets the WP article for their own viewpoint, leaving out such facts that a number of toll users are not everyday (only 5% do) and use the lanes on specific occasions where a more predictable travel time is desired (and in fact the lanes were heavily advertised for this purpose in advance of their opening).

The fact that tolls reach into the $40 range on 95/495 is a red herring because of this:  almost nobody pays the high end amounts which is the purpose of the tolls being that high - the intent is to dissuade more people from getting in the lanes which are almost always because of a wreck within the lanes.  My civil service entity does not reimburse tolls but does participate in transhare to encourage people to use mass transit and not drive in (in fact they confiscate your parking permit as a condition of receiving transhare).  It is faster to drive and the rail service doesn't well suit my work schedule so I choose to drive the 62 miles from Fredericksburg to Bethesda.

I just returned from San Diego and I used the I-15 Express lanes on my way out of town.  Because they are HOV-2 out there I rode for free.  For single drivers, you can pay to use them as well.  The toll is congestion based too, but caps out at $8 (entire length is around 20 miles or so).  The wrinkle is that after it caps out at $8 it will then go to a stage where it is illegal for more single drivers to enter the lanes.  This is how they are keeping the lanes from getting too crowded for free flow.

The newly announced projects will help with some specific things but not necessary the worst things needing addressing:
1.  The HOT lane extension to Fredericksburg coupled with the Rappahannock River projects should vastly improve the condition of the southbound interstate which backs up from VA 3 all the way back to the Stafford Airport on most days
2.  The Opitz Blvd direct ramps with the HOT lanes will improve the mainline I-95 southbound Dale City area because the flyover from the HOT lanes to mainline to use Dale Blvd will have fewer vehicles (becuase many will go direct to Opitz Blvd instead) and the weave/merge area of the flyover and mainline 95 is a frequent backup and/or accident point. 
3.  The auxilliary lane between VA 123 and VA 294 is disappointing because it won't improve the worst part of the bottleneck at 123 but it will improve the backup on mainline 95 that frequently occurs with traffic exiting onto VA 294 backing up in a queue that spills into the non-exiting lanes.  Extending the 4th lane to VA 294 would indeed do more to relieve traffic but would definitely be more expensive (bridge over old VA 253 has to be widened whereas it does not for the auxillary lane extension).  It would definitely take some $ away from Transurban because a fair number of people get into the toll lanes at Exit 161 and get right back off at VA 123 to bypass the merges from US 1 NB ramp and the lane drop.  The toll to do this maneuver ranges $3-7 during afternoon rush.
4.  The 495 express lane extension to Maryland will help the Outer Loop immediately a little bit and even more once a new Legion Bridge is built.  The inner loop won't see a lot of benefit until 495 is expanded to the 270 split in Maryland


Beltway

Quote from: Mapmikey on February 01, 2019, 03:17:53 PM
The editorial on the toll lanes also interprets the WP article for their own viewpoint, leaving out such facts that a number of toll users are not everyday (only 5% do) and use the lanes on specific occasions where a more predictable travel time is desired (and in fact the lanes were heavily advertised for this purpose in advance of their opening).

I drive straight thru the Washington area about 5 times a year on trips that are in peak hours and are time valuable.  It is a no-brainer to use the HOT lanes on both I-95 and I-495, whatever the cost.  Surely there are lots of intermittent users like this that help fill the HOT lanes during peak hours and remove themselves from the GP lanes.
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Jmiles32

#1293
Here are some of the details regarding how the recent HOT Lanes deal came about:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/02/01/how-virginias-billion-deal-with-transurban-came-about-solved-major-i-bottleneck/?utm_term=.2cf7c1e38e5b
QuoteThe project was at the center of months-long negotiations between the state and Transurban, culminating with Tuesday's announcement of a plan that allows the Australian company to expand its toll operations in Northern Virginia and solidify its decade-long relationship with the state.

Transurban will extend the 495 Express Lanes to the American Legion Bridge and begin construction of an additional 10 miles of the 95 Express Lanes to Fredericksburg. The company also will build a ramp from the 95 Express Lanes at Opitz Boulevard to connect to shopping and medical facilities in Woodbridge.

In exchange, the state will be allowed to build a southbound lane to ease the Occoquan bottleneck. Additionally, Transurban will pay the state a concession of $277 million, a sum announced last year, to help cover the costs of a bridge over the Rappahannock River and other improvements. Officials said Transurban will also give the state a payment of at least $54 million in unanticipated project savings. Virginia officials said that money will be used to help pay for the new Occoquan auxiliary lane.

Transurban had opposed construction of the lane citing a stipulation in its original contract that forbids Virginia from building general travel lanes where Transurban operates high-occupancy toll lanes. If the state had tried to build the extra lane without a deal, it could have potentially faced millions of dollars in penalties.

"The Commonwealth was clear on our position that the construction of an auxiliary lane would not constitute a compensation event. Transurban was clear on its position that this project would constitute a compensation event. In the end, we agreed not to debate the issue over the next several decades,"  said Amy Wight, Virginia's assistant transportation secretary. "Avoiding what could be a lengthy and costly legal battle is in the interest of both parties and of Virginians, and the decision was to move forward with this specific improvement."

The Virginia Department of Transportation will build and maintain the new southbound lane, a $30-million project that will connect the southbound Route 123 ramp onto I-95 with the off-ramp at westbound Prince William Parkway. It is the smallest of the four projects Gov. Ralph Northam (D) announced Tuesday.

In a Jan. 29 letter, Transurban confirmed to the state that the 95 Express Lanes "will not seek to recover compensation from VDOT in connection with the Occoquan Auxiliary Lane."  Jennifer Aument, president of Transurban's North America operations, said in an interview that the company had no intention to seek payment from the state, but was focused on "working out a solution."  She said in exchange for allowing VDOT to move forward with the improvement, Transurban was allowed to build the ramp at Opitz Boulevard, where she said customers want better access to the shopping center.

Some more quick thoughts:
1. Transurban will pay the state $277 million in which will go towards the $132 million northbound Rappahannock river crossing project and "other improvements". VA also gets an extra $54 million from project savings. Assuming that VA uses this money to build the $30 million auxiliarily lane, that still leaves $169 million left over. What "other improvements" will that money go towards? The only thing that currently comes to mind is the maybe spending it to build a 4th northbound lane from the end of the northbound RRCP(Exit 133) up to Centreport Pkwy(Exit 136) but I'm not entirely sure. Either way there should be extra money available. 
2. Obviously in the original I-95 HOT lanes contract and probably the I-495 one too, it was not discussed whether or not an auxiliarily lane counts as gp lane.
Aspiring Transportation Planner at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies!

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 03:25:36 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 01, 2019, 03:17:53 PM
The editorial on the toll lanes also interprets the WP article for their own viewpoint, leaving out such facts that a number of toll users are not everyday (only 5% do) and use the lanes on specific occasions where a more predictable travel time is desired (and in fact the lanes were heavily advertised for this purpose in advance of their opening).

I drive straight thru the Washington area about 5 times a year on trips that are in peak hours and are time valuable.  It is a no-brainer to use the HOT lanes on both I-95 and I-495, whatever the cost.  Surely there are lots of intermittent users like this that help fill the HOT lanes during peak hours and remove themselves from the GP lanes.
I'd rather sit in congestion then pay Transurban $30 one-way for their "convenience". That's just me though. I can afford it, but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere useful. And a lot of the traffic on the HO/T lanes is HOV, not SOV vehicles. And the ones in SOV vehicles are usually the expensive cars, not the average driver. The average drivers are like me, we'll sit in congestion cause we're not going to pay some foreign company a heavy toll to get a quick ride. A lot can afford it, but they actually want to use that money somewhere useful and productive.

And if they really want to help traffic, why not lower it to HOV 2+ as opposed to 3+? It'd surely get more usage. Would they loose some money? If it were up to them fully, it would be tolled lanes, not HO/T. No HOV free.

Beltway

#1295
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2019, 05:02:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 03:25:36 PM
I drive straight thru the Washington area about 5 times a year on trips that are in peak hours and are time valuable.  It is a no-brainer to use the HOT lanes on both I-95 and I-495, whatever the cost.  Surely there are lots of intermittent users like this that help fill the HOT lanes during peak hours and remove themselves from the GP lanes.
I'd rather sit in congestion then pay Transurban $30 one-way for their "convenience". That's just me though. I can afford it, but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere useful. And a lot of the traffic on the HO/T lanes is HOV, not SOV vehicles. And the ones in SOV vehicles are usually the expensive cars, not the average driver.

Not true, review the FHWA article I posted.

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2019, 05:02:42 PM
The average drivers are like me, we'll sit in congestion cause we're not going to pay some foreign company a heavy toll to get a quick ride. A lot can afford it, but they actually want to use that money somewhere useful and productive.

We live in a global economy, I am not a xenophobe who doesn't want to do business with a company from another country, just to stoke American Pride.

The combined cost for me is usually much less than $30, far less in off-peak hours.  For people like me it is worth it; after all I could take the GP lanes if I wanted to.  We're talking about 5 thru trips per year, and not the local trips I take there.  I am retired and am not wealthy.

Feel free to use whichever lanes you want.  Fact is that enough people use the HOT lanes to use all the capacity during peak hours.

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2019, 05:02:42 PM
And if they really want to help traffic, why not lower it to HOV 2+ as opposed to 3+? It'd surely get more usage. Would they loose some money? If it were up to them fully, it would be tolled lanes, not HO/T. No HOV free.

Because they would congest at HOV-2.  Because they want to keep car and van pools (HOV-3+) toll free, to encourage the use of car and van pools.
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sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 05:30:24 PM
Not true, review the FHWA article I posted.
That article is at least 10 years old, citing the fact I-495 Express Lanes wasn't even built yet. Agreed, SOV vehicles will use the lanes if the toll is reasonable. 10 years ago, and not on I-95, tolls are likely affordable on those other facilities, or simply more reasonable. $30 on I-95 / I-495 during rush hour or $50 on I-66 one-way is not reasonable. When it's less, there's usually not enough traffic to warrant even paying a toll. Fact is a lot more SOV drivers don't pay the tolls. Evidence? Look at the I-95 GP lanes.

Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 05:30:24 PM
We live in a global economy, I am not a xenophobe who doesn't want to do business with a company from another country, just to stoke American Pride.
I'm not either. I'm just not willing to pay an expensive price for something not even worth that much.

Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 05:30:24 PM
far less in off-peak hours.
Why would someone waste any money if there's no congestion in the GP lanes? The toll is low when there's no congestion, which is what I'm assuming you're referring to.

I'm not going to tell you how to use your money though, that's your personal decision, not mine. I'm just putting my opinion out there.

Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 05:30:24 PM
Fact is that enough people use the HOT lanes to use all the capacity during peak hours.
HO/T lanes - have great capacity.
GP lanes - constant congestion

Why do they want to keep adding HO/T lanes, when the GP lanes need relief (and I don't mean more HO/T lanes, we see where they already exist, I-95 is still a huge mess)? Because tax payers don't have to pay for it, and gov't can have someone else do their work. Not seeing any other reason.

Quote from: Beltway on February 01, 2019, 05:30:24 PM
Because they would congest at HOV-2.  Because they want to keep car and van pools (HOV-3+) toll free, to encourage the use of car and van pools.
What if you only know one person you work with? Or you do not have the ability to carpool? They assume everybody has access to carpool, which simply isn't true.

Mapmikey

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2019, 05:02:42 PM

I'd rather sit in congestion then pay Transurban $30 one-way for their "convenience". That's just me though. I can afford it, but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere useful. And a lot of the traffic on the HO/T lanes is HOV, not SOV vehicles. And the ones in SOV vehicles are usually the expensive cars, not the average driver. The average drivers are like me, we'll sit in congestion cause we're not going to pay some foreign company a heavy toll to get a quick ride. A lot can afford it, but they actually want to use that money somewhere useful and productive.

And if they really want to help traffic, why not lower it to HOV 2+ as opposed to 3+? It'd surely get more usage. Would they loose some money? If it were up to them fully, it would be tolled lanes, not HO/T. No HOV free.

I can afford it (even though I drive a Malibu with 95k miles on it!), and I'd rather spend that time elsewhere useful.  I sat in the pre-express lane traffic slogs for over 15 years so I've had my fill of those...

In the afternoon I drive the entirety of the 495 express lanes plus 95 express lanes south of the beltway 4 days a week.  On a normal day that is about $40 for the whole 43 miles leaving Bethesda at 4:30 pm.  If there are problems or its near a holiday then it can get to $60.  I used to have 2 hr commutes 3 days a week and a 3+ hour commute once every other week.  Now I have a 2 hr commute once a month and a 3+ hour commute maybe twice a year.  Typically takes 90 minutes now.

In the morning I don't need the 495 express lanes and the 95 lanes run under $10 for the 30 miles at 5:15 am.  And i have plenty of company on the highway at that hour.

It is far, far cheaper to do that than to move near my job...

I could shave a few $ if I got up-to-the-second traffic info on which parts of 95 are doing okay on any given day but that requires too much constant triangulation.

Note that it used to be HOV 4 in Northern Virginia originally, so HOV 2 has never been in play on the 95 corridor and dropping it to HOV 2 would cause some choke points north of Lorton.

sprjus4

Quote from: Mapmikey on February 01, 2019, 05:51:44 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 01, 2019, 05:02:42 PM

I'd rather sit in congestion then pay Transurban $30 one-way for their "convenience". That's just me though. I can afford it, but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere useful. And a lot of the traffic on the HO/T lanes is HOV, not SOV vehicles. And the ones in SOV vehicles are usually the expensive cars, not the average driver. The average drivers are like me, we'll sit in congestion cause we're not going to pay some foreign company a heavy toll to get a quick ride. A lot can afford it, but they actually want to use that money somewhere useful and productive.

And if they really want to help traffic, why not lower it to HOV 2+ as opposed to 3+? It'd surely get more usage. Would they loose some money? If it were up to them fully, it would be tolled lanes, not HO/T. No HOV free.

I can afford it (even though I drive a Malibu with 95k miles on it!), and I'd rather spend that time elsewhere useful.  I sat in the pre-express lane traffic slogs for over 15 years so I've had my fill of those...

In the afternoon I drive the entirety of the 495 express lanes plus 95 express lanes south of the beltway 4 days a week.  On a normal day that is about $40 for the whole 43 miles leaving Bethesda at 4:30 pm.  If there are problems or its near a holiday then it can get to $60.  I used to have 2 hr commutes 3 days a week and a 3+ hour commute once every other week.  Now I have a 2 hr commute once a month and a 3+ hour commute maybe twice a year.  Typically takes 90 minutes now.

In the morning I don't need the 495 express lanes and the 95 lanes run under $10 for the 30 miles at 5:15 am.  And i have plenty of company on the highway at that hour.

It is far, far cheaper to do that than to move near my job...

I could shave a few $ if I got up-to-the-second traffic info on which parts of 95 are doing okay on any given day but that requires too much constant triangulation.

Note that it used to be HOV 4 in Northern Virginia originally, so HOV 2 has never been in play on the 95 corridor and dropping it to HOV 2 would cause some choke points north of Lorton.
Okay, you can afford it, congratulations. Many cannot. As you note, it's cheaper living down where you are, meaning less wealthy or people who can afford it.

All I'm trying to get out of this is that I-95 GP needs to widened to 8 lanes without any tolls on it. Bring relief for those who cannot pay or chose to use their money elsewhere, not just benefiting the toll payers and carpools, and saying screw the other guys. That's what's happening.

sprjus4

Quote from: Mapmikey on February 01, 2019, 03:17:53 PM
The newly announced projects will help with some specific things but not necessary the worst things needing addressing:
1.  The HOT lane extension to Fredericksburg coupled with the Rappahannock River projects should vastly improve the condition of the southbound interstate which backs up from VA 3 all the way back to the Stafford Airport on most days
2.  The Opitz Blvd direct ramps with the HOT lanes will improve the mainline I-95 southbound Dale City area because the flyover from the HOT lanes to mainline to use Dale Blvd will have fewer vehicles (becuase many will go direct to Opitz Blvd instead) and the weave/merge area of the flyover and mainline 95 is a frequent backup and/or accident point. 
3.  The auxilliary lane between VA 123 and VA 294 is disappointing because it won't improve the worst part of the bottleneck at 123 but it will improve the backup on mainline 95 that frequently occurs with traffic exiting onto VA 294 backing up in a queue that spills into the non-exiting lanes.  Extending the 4th lane to VA 294 would indeed do more to relieve traffic but would definitely be more expensive (bridge over old VA 253 has to be widened whereas it does not for the auxillary lane extension).  It would definitely take some $ away from Transurban because a fair number of people get into the toll lanes at Exit 161 and get right back off at VA 123 to bypass the merges from US 1 NB ramp and the lane drop.  The toll to do this maneuver ranges $3-7 during afternoon rush.
4.  The 495 express lane extension to Maryland will help the Outer Loop immediately a little bit and even more once a new Legion Bridge is built.  The inner loop won't see a lot of benefit until 495 is expanded to the 270 split in Maryland
1. Great project, I agree it will help. A full 8-laning would put a better fix in the long run however. I don't anticipate the HO/T lanes relieving much congestion, but it will some.
2. I don't anticipate this doing much traffic relief.
3. No bridge would have to be widened to extend the 4th lane.
4. Again, good project, agreed it will help.



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