New Signage for Parkways in New York City

[roadman65]

Does NY 27 enter the Belt Parkway at all near JFK, or does it follow the service roads?  I was always wondering that one with the truck ban on the Belt Parkway and the fact that NY 27 is a major thoroughfare in Long Island.  The maps show it as, but that is cause many of them are not in full closeup detail.

[mapman1071]

Does NY 27 enter the Belt Parkway at all near JFK, or does it follow the service roads?  I was always wondering that one with the truck ban on the Belt Parkway and the fact that NY 27 is a major thoroughfare in Long Island.  The maps show it as, but that is cause many of them are not in full closeup detail.

NY27 EB Between Crossbay Blvd and Belt Parkway Eb - South Conduit Blvd Exit  is Nassau Expressway NY 878
NY27 EB Between Belt Parkway Eb - South Conduit Blvd Exit and Hook Creek Blvd is South Conduit Blvd/Avenue
NY27 WB Between Hook Creek Blvd and Lauralton (Belt) Parkway is South Conduit Blvd/Avenue
NY27 WB Between Lauralton (Belt) Parkway and Crossbay Blvd is North Conduit Blvd/Avenue (Between JFK Expressway and Van Wyck Expressway North Conduit merges into WB Nassau Expressway (NY878) with exits at 133rd Avenue, Van Wyck Expressway I-678 NB and Van Wyck Expressway - Kennedy Airport; Nassau Expressway Ends here and North Conduit continues West)


The Belt Parkway Between Cross Bay Blvd and Exit 23 Sunrise Highway - Brookville Blvd was NY 27a from the 1940's to 1970 (Some signs were posted into the late 1970's)

[cl94]

Additionally, it is against state law to completely restrict a touring route to a certain type of vehicle (passenger cars in the case of parkways).

Really?  So what's the deal with NY 9A following the Henry Hudson Parkway for a substantial distance with no truck route?  Or does New York City not count?

Good question. That one has always baffled me, as it and I-278 are the only state or higher level routes to ban trucks for a stretch. The state law thing was the excuse Region 4 gave for not banning trucks from NY 63 (to the dismay of Pavilion, NY) and from what I can tell, there is such a law on the books (don't remember the number). I know I-278 only bans overheight vehicles, but NY 9A is an odd case. It's possible that NY 9A was granted an exception.

[Duke87]

Additionally, it is against state law to completely restrict a touring route to a certain type of vehicle (passenger cars in the case of parkways).

Really?  So what's the deal with NY 9A following the Henry Hudson Parkway for a substantial distance with no truck route?  Or does New York City not count?

Good question. That one has always baffled me, as it and I-278 are the only state or higher level routes to ban trucks for a stretch. The state law thing was the excuse Region 4 gave for not banning trucks from NY 63 (to the dismay of Pavilion, NY) and from what I can tell, there is such a law on the books (don't remember the number). I know I-278 only bans overheight vehicles, but NY 9A is an odd case. It's possible that NY 9A was granted an exception.

Eh? There are plenty of other cases. US 6 bans trucks where it overlaps the Palisades Parkway. NY 370 bans trucks between I-81 and Liverpool.

Where exactly is this law that says touring routes must be open to all vehicles? I'm looking here but I can't find it.

[vdeane]

US 6 has a truck route, though NY 370 doesn't.

I-278 used to have a truck route way back when.

Overweight/overheight might not factor into that law, given the prevalence of "no trucks with R permits" signs.

The "name has been drilled into people since a young age" thing doesn't stop NYC from renaming roads.

[cl94]

Additionally, it is against state law to completely restrict a touring route to a certain type of vehicle (passenger cars in the case of parkways).

Really?  So what's the deal with NY 9A following the Henry Hudson Parkway for a substantial distance with no truck route?  Or does New York City not count?

Good question. That one has always baffled me, as it and I-278 are the only state or higher level routes to ban trucks for a stretch. The state law thing was the excuse Region 4 gave for not banning trucks from NY 63 (to the dismay of Pavilion, NY) and from what I can tell, there is such a law on the books (don't remember the number). I know I-278 only bans overheight vehicles, but NY 9A is an odd case. It's possible that NY 9A was granted an exception.

Eh? There are plenty of other cases. US 6 bans trucks where it overlaps the Palisades Parkway. NY 370 bans trucks between I-81 and Liverpool.

Where exactly is this law that says touring routes must be open to all vehicles? I'm looking here but I can't find it.

I was mistaken. My apologies. They can ban only if there are clearance issues or the like, per https://www.dot.ny.gov/regional-offices/region4/projects/route63-corridor-study/rte63-faqs#4

[dgolub]

I-278 used to have a truck route way back when.

It still does.  If you drive along that section of Astoria Boulevard, you'll see Truck I-278 signs.

[dgolub]

The "name has been drilled into people since a young age" thing doesn't stop NYC from renaming roads.

Right, and everyone still goes on talking about the Triboro and the Interboro, so anyone from out of town can be completely confused.

[cl94]

The "name has been drilled into people since a young age" thing doesn't stop NYC from renaming roads.

Right, and everyone still goes on talking about the Triboro and the Interboro, so anyone from out of town can be completely confused.

Half of the people downstate don't know what you're taking about when they hear/see "RFK Bridge". I remember my parents wondering what the hell it was when they saw the sign for the first time. It's the Triborough to everyone and it'll be a long time before it changes. Most don't know Hempstead Turnpike and Jericho turnpike even have numbers, confusing former locals I know when NYSDOT redid the signs on the SOB and removed any mention to the road names. Slap a number on something and eliminate/change the name and you're bound to confuse people, especially because VERY few highways are referred to by number (NY 110 being a major exception).

[vdeane]

Fun fact: I was talking with the Highway Data Services division today, and apparently the bannered truck routes in NY are all unofficial (as far as NYSDOT is concerned) and set by municipalities.  As far as NYSDOT is concerned, the only bannered route is US 62 Business in Niagara Falls.

[Pete from Boston]

The "name has been drilled into people since a young age" thing doesn't stop NYC from renaming roads.

Right, and everyone still goes on talking about the Triboro and the Interboro, so anyone from out of town can be completely confused.

And the Queensboro, and the Battery Tunnel, and the future Tappan Zee (aka "the New New York Bridge," implying that they're keeping their options open).

[cl94]

The "name has been drilled into people since a young age" thing doesn't stop NYC from renaming roads.

Right, and everyone still goes on talking about the Triboro and the Interboro, so anyone from out of town can be completely confused.

And the Queensboro, and the Battery Tunnel, and the future Tappan Zee (aka "the New New York Bridge," implying that they're keeping their options open).

And the Kingston-Rhinecliff, the Mid-Hudson, and the Newburgh-Beacon... I-495 is the LIE, I-295 is the Clearview, I-678 is the Van Wyck, I-95 is the Cross Bronx, I-87 is the Major Deegan. Basically, nobody in New York pays attention to any renaming or posted route number. The current Jackie Robinson is still referred to by most as the Interborough. New Yorkers don't change unless they have to. Stop posting the name and there will be mass confusion among tourists.

[empirestate]

Stop posting the name and there will be mass confusion among tourists.

So, in short, it would have no effect.

[dgolub]

Half of the people downstate don't know what you're taking about when they hear/see "RFK Bridge". I remember my parents wondering what the hell it was when they saw the sign for the first time. It's the Triborough to everyone and it'll be a long time before it changes. Most don't know Hempstead Turnpike and Jericho turnpike even have numbers, confusing former locals I know when NYSDOT redid the signs on the SOB and removed any mention to the road names. Slap a number on something and eliminate/change the name and you're bound to confuse people, especially because VERY few highways are referred to by number (NY 110 being a major exception).

This reminds me of something that happened back when I was 5 years old.  I got in the car with my mother and my sister to go to this birthday party for someone in my preschool class, and driving directions said to take the Wantagh Parkway to Sunrise Highway.  The thing is that the signs for the exit don't say Sunrise Highway--they say NY 27, and no one in the car knew that they were the same thing, so we wound up at Jones Beach in the middle of the winter.

It's not just NY 110 that's the exception.  Most of the three-digit routes are known by their numbers.  Definitely not NY 101, though.  Everyone knows it as Port Washington Boulevard, and most of the people living in Port Washington probably don't even know that it has a number.

[dgolub]

To get back to the original topic of this thread, I emailed the person at NYSDOT who had contacted me about this two years ago.  She said that she's passing my email on to a colleague to get more information, but she's pretty sure that each parkway will have a different image.  I'll keep you all posted if I learn more.

[SidS1045]

The "name has been drilled into people since a young age" thing doesn't stop NYC from renaming roads.

Right, and everyone still goes on talking about the Triboro and the Interboro, so anyone from out of town can be completely confused.

And the Queensboro, and the Battery Tunnel, and the future Tappan Zee (aka "the New New York Bridge," implying that they're keeping their options open).

...and let's not forget Avenue of the Americas...a situation that got so bad that NYCDOT finally gave in and dual-signed the avenue.

[dgolub]

...and let's not forget Avenue of the Americas...a situation that got so bad that NYCDOT finally gave in and dual-signed the avenue.

In fact, the oversized street name signs that hang from the traffic light poles only say 6 Avenue.

[Duke87]

Stop posting the name and there will be mass confusion among tourists.

So, in short, it would have no effect.

+1

To get back to the original topic of this thread, I emailed the person at NYSDOT who had contacted me about this two years ago.  She said that she's passing my email on to a colleague to get more information, but she's pretty sure that each parkway will have a different image.  I'll keep you all posted if I learn more.

YES! OH GOD YES! I love it.

[Alps]

YES! OH GOD YES! I love it.

I'll have what he's having.

If my design ends up on the FDR I want $1,000.

[dgolub]

All right, here's the answer from the person overseeing the project at NYCDOT:

We are in the process of ensuring there are no intellectual rights issues with any images, are finalizing images, and deciding between images for several parkways.  No definitive timetable for implementation yet.

[hubcity]

All right, here's the answer from the person overseeing the project at NYCDOT:

We are in the process of ensuring there are no intellectual rights issues with any images, are finalizing images, and deciding between images for several parkways.  No definitive timetable for implementation yet.

Not an insignificant issue. John Oliver, on HBO's "Last Week Tonight", recently devoted some time to the Port Authority's intellectual-property-based cease-and-desist assault regarding PANYNJ edifices being represented on dishes being sold as representative of New York City. And with the assistance of Colin Quinn, he kinda raked them over the coals...

[mrsman]

OK, Here's my thoughts with regard to the new signage:

Ideally, the parkways should have a numbering scheme like other limited access routes, with a different shaped shield to denote the restrictions on trucks.  Maybe a white triangle?  How about P-1, P-2, etc. for the numbering scheme?

I would say that each region of the state should have a section of numbers:  P-1 thru P-19 for eastern LI; P-20 through P-39 for NYC; P-40 through P-59 for Hudson Valley; P-60 through P-79 for North Central NY; P-80 through P-99 for Western NY.

Route Numbers are the ideal way for concise representation on a map and because of how widely these roads are used by the public, they need shields.  A name alone is not sufficient as it would be for a local street.

The Arroyo Seco Parkway in California restricts trucks, yet its a controlled access parkway and treated by cars as part of the freeway system and accordingly is signed as CA-110.

If they can't incorporate route numbers because of the state laws that others mentioned, then the next best thing are route markers as they have in LI and as they are proposing here.  I would avoid the lighthouse, because even though they are taking a picture of a different lighthouse, almost everyone associates the lighthouse with Long Island.  HHP heads directly to Manhattan, use the ESB as the symbol for all NYC parkways.

As for the abbreviations?  Well, you can't repeat what is already used in LI and elsewhere, so come up with your own abbreviations:

GCP Grand Central Pkwy
BP Belt Pkwy
CIP Cross Island Pkwy
JRP Jackie Robinson Pkwy
FDR FDR Drive
HHP Henry Hudson Pkwy
BRP Bronx River Parkway
HRD Harlem River Drive
MOP Moshulu Pkwy
KVP Korean War Veterans Parkway

[cl94]

OK, Here's my thoughts with regard to the new signage:

Ideally, the parkways should have a numbering scheme like other limited access routes, with a different shaped shield to denote the restrictions on trucks.  Maybe a white triangle?  How about P-1, P-2, etc. for the numbering scheme?

I would say that each region of the state should have a section of numbers:  P-1 thru P-19 for eastern LI; P-20 through P-39 for NYC; P-40 through P-59 for Hudson Valley; P-60 through P-79 for North Central NY; P-80 through P-99 for Western NY.

Route Numbers are the ideal way for concise representation on a map and because of how widely these roads are used by the public, they need shields.  A name alone is not sufficient as it would be for a local street.

The Arroyo Seco Parkway in California restricts trucks, yet its a controlled access parkway and treated by cars as part of the freeway system and accordingly is signed as CA-110.

If they can't incorporate route numbers because of the state laws that others mentioned, then the next best thing are route markers as they have in LI and as they are proposing here.  I would avoid the lighthouse, because even though they are taking a picture of a different lighthouse, almost everyone associates the lighthouse with Long Island.  HHP heads directly to Manhattan, use the ESB as the symbol for all NYC parkways.

As for the abbreviations?  Well, you can't repeat what is already used in LI and elsewhere, so come up with your own abbreviations:

GCP Grand Central Pkwy
BP Belt Pkwy
CIP Cross Island Pkwy
JRP Jackie Robinson Pkwy
FDR FDR Drive
HHP Henry Hudson Pkwy
BRP Bronx River Parkway
HRD Harlem River Drive
MOP Moshulu Pkwy
KVP Korean War Veterans Parkway

They have shields that appear on maps provided by state agencies and local companies. Each one has a unique shield that either looks like the state shield or is a regional shield. Everyone knows what the Long Island parkway shields look like and they're all over the place. Lake Ontario is usually signed with shield alone. Anything with a wordy shield is referred to by name on BGSes. Everybody knows the parkways by name and the parkway system in general is typically used by locals (downstate at least), because trucks aren't allowed and Mapquest/Google loves routing people on Interstate highways more prone to heavy traffic. Tourists wouldn't think to use the Northern State instead of the LIE because Google Maps says the LIE is faster, which is only true if both roads are moving at the speed limit (a rarity).

For the LI/NYC shield, few people could really care less about what is on it other than the letters. They use the initials of the parkway name with a second letter if there are duplications. The Henry Hudson, for example, is HH. Jackie Robinson will likely be JR, Bronx River BR, etc. Having different landmarks for each parkway is a cool idea. Put a silhouette that shows a well-known landmark (the Cyclone for the Belt, etc.) to reflect the culture of each borough. You'd really piss off people in Brooklyn and Queens if the Empire State Building was on the Belt, Jackie Robinson, or Cross Island.

[dgolub]

OK, Here's my thoughts with regard to the new signage:

Ideally, the parkways should have a numbering scheme like other limited access routes, with a different shaped shield to denote the restrictions on trucks.  Maybe a white triangle?  How about P-1, P-2, etc. for the numbering scheme?

I would say that each region of the state should have a section of numbers:  P-1 thru P-19 for eastern LI; P-20 through P-39 for NYC; P-40 through P-59 for Hudson Valley; P-60 through P-79 for North Central NY; P-80 through P-99 for Western NY.

Route Numbers are the ideal way for concise representation on a map and because of how widely these roads are used by the public, they need shields.  A name alone is not sufficient as it would be for a local street.

The Arroyo Seco Parkway in California restricts trucks, yet its a controlled access parkway and treated by cars as part of the freeway system and accordingly is signed as CA-110.

If they can't incorporate route numbers because of the state laws that others mentioned, then the next best thing are route markers as they have in LI and as they are proposing here.  I would avoid the lighthouse, because even though they are taking a picture of a different lighthouse, almost everyone associates the lighthouse with Long Island.  HHP heads directly to Manhattan, use the ESB as the symbol for all NYC parkways.

As for the abbreviations?  Well, you can't repeat what is already used in LI and elsewhere, so come up with your own abbreviations:

GCP Grand Central Pkwy
BP Belt Pkwy
CIP Cross Island Pkwy
JRP Jackie Robinson Pkwy
FDR FDR Drive
HHP Henry Hudson Pkwy
BRP Bronx River Parkway
HRD Harlem River Drive
MOP Moshulu Pkwy
KVP Korean War Veterans Parkway

They have shields that appear on maps provided by state agencies and local companies. Each one has a unique shield that either looks like the state shield or is a regional shield. Everyone knows what the Long Island parkway shields look like and they're all over the place. Lake Ontario is usually signed with shield alone. Anything with a wordy shield is referred to by name on BGSes. Everybody knows the parkways by name and the parkway system in general is typically used by locals (downstate at least), because trucks aren't allowed and Mapquest/Google loves routing people on Interstate highways more prone to heavy traffic. Tourists wouldn't think to use the Northern State instead of the LIE because Google Maps says the LIE is faster, which is only true if both roads are moving at the speed limit (a rarity).

For the LI/NYC shield, few people could really care less about what is on it other than the letters. They use the initials of the parkway name with a second letter if there are duplications. The Henry Hudson, for example, is HH. Jackie Robinson will likely be JR, Bronx River BR, etc. Having different landmarks for each parkway is a cool idea. Put a silhouette that shows a well-known landmark (the Cyclone for the Belt, etc.) to reflect the culture of each borough. You'd really piss off people in Brooklyn and Queens if the Empire State Building was on the Belt, Jackie Robinson, or Cross Island.

The original document that the NYSDOT put out back in 2012 states the letters that they plan on using.  It's available at http://www.greaternyroads.info/pdfs/nycparksign.pdf, and the letters are on page 4.