Cutting corners in maintenance

[Beltway]

I somehow doubt that Maryland House and Chesapeake House are responsible for the loss of 320 businesses each.

Strawman claim.

A significant percentage of I-95 in MD has to pass through the Washington and Baltimore metropolitan areas. These businesses are going to have to compete with more non-"Interstate-based" businesses. If I am hungry in a rural area and my only options are McDonalds or keep going, I might stop at McDonalds even if it's not my first choice because it's what's there. But in a city, I might have the option to pass up the McDonald's at the interchange and drive a couple miles into the city and eat elsewhere.

Same is true in Virginia, with the Washington area and the Richmond-Petersburg area.

[Scott5114]

I somehow doubt that Maryland House and Chesapeake House are responsible for the loss of 320 businesses each.

Strawman claim.

I don't see how. Your premise is that VA I-95 has 858 roadside businesses, while MD I-95 has only 109. You also point out that MD has two service plazas, in the context of a discussion wherein you assert that service plazas inhibit the growth of roadside businesses. If you weren't intending to support your argument by implying that the service plazas are the chief cause of this difference, then I don't understand why you even bothered to post those statistics.

And I'm still not seeing your source for them. Where are the statistics from?

[Beltway]

I somehow doubt that Maryland House and Chesapeake House are responsible for the loss of 320 businesses each.

Strawman claim.

I don't see how. Your premise is that VA I-95 has 858 roadside businesses, while MD I-95 has only 109. You also point out that MD has two service plazas, in the context of a discussion wherein you assert that service plazas inhibit the growth of roadside businesses. If you weren't intending to support your argument by implying that the service plazas are the chief cause of this difference, then I don't understand why you even bothered to post those statistics.

And I'm still not seeing your source for them. Where are the statistics from?

"The loss of 320 businesses each" implies that businesses were established and then disappeared.  Strawman...

As I have said, I am not trying to prove the claims of the small business associations, just that they have reasonable arguments on their side of the issue.

.......

http://www.ncsl.org/documents/transportation/HAlfano1210.pdf

[Scott5114]

320 potential businesses then. I scarcely believe there's much of a difference. The point is, the argument is made that the 657-business difference is a result of one state having commercialized rest areas on their stretch of I-95 and the other not having them.

I am not seeing anywhere in the source what their criteria is for counting a particular business in their chart, unfortunately.

[vdeane]

'Rural' does not include Westchester Co. NY. 

And yet it has a service plaza.

[Beltway]

320 potential businesses then. I scarcely believe there's much of a difference. The point is, the argument is made that the 657-business difference is a result of one state having commercialized rest areas on their stretch of I-95 and the other not having them.

I don't see that being the exact argument, as obviously there are multiple factors.  The commercialized rest areas would seem to be a major correlator.  The data shows that the state without them has vastly more of those small businesses, and you can interpret that data however you want.

I don't think that Maryland's way is "bad" or "good", it's just the system that they have followed on I-95 since the 1960s.

However, I think it is reasonable to conclude from this data that if a state without commercialized rest areas were to introduce them on the scale of Maryland House and Chesapeake House, that the local businesses near the interchanges would experience a major net loss of business volume.  At least I can understand why the national small business associations are so opposed to it, and why they don't what to see the system changed.

I am not seeing anywhere in the source what their criteria is for counting a particular business in their chart, unfortunately.

It's a summary.  I would think that it means vehicle service and food businesses near the interchanges..

[rarnold]

The Federal Government has complete authority in the area of commercialization of rest areas on free interstates. The Commerce Clause gives them this authority. That being said, we need to come up with new ways to pay for our highway infrastructure, and this may be an answer. At this point, any and all ideas should be on the table, including commercialization of rest areas.

[Beltway]

The Federal Government has complete authority in the area of commercialization of rest areas on free interstates. The Commerce Clause gives them this authority. That being said, we need to come up with new ways to pay for our highway infrastructure, and this may be an answer. At this point, any and all ideas should be on the table, including commercialization of rest areas.

The Safety Rest Areas are an integral part of the highway facility, and they should be funded the same way as the rest of the highway.

FHWA studies have estimated on average a 6-8% decrease in crashes, injuries and fatalities, due to having Safety Rest Areas on an Interstate highway corridor, as opposed to not having them.

Just like guardrail, shoulders, and medians are needed safety features, Safety Rest Areas are needed safety features as well, in addition to being very convenient places to stop and rest for a few hours.

Safety Rest Areas need to be modernized in many cases, but they should be kept as Safety Rest Areas, and not commercialized, IMHO.

[cpzilliacus]

320 potential businesses then. I scarcely believe there's much of a difference. The point is, the argument is made that the 657-business difference is a result of one state having commercialized rest areas on their stretch of I-95 and the other not having them.

I am not seeing anywhere in the source what their criteria is for counting a particular business in their chart, unfortunately.

When compared to Virginia, land use controls in Maryland counties are (in general) much stricter, and county governments in Maryland, which decide most land use issues (some municipalities in the state have zoning and land use powers, but most of the state (and most of the route followed by I-95) are in unincorporated areas (the only large Maryland municipality through which I-95 passes is Baltimore City)). 

That means that opposition to "lulus" (locally undesirable lane land uses) is probably more likely to result in a project being delayed or cancelled by local elected officials when compared to other states.  The only truck stop along I-95 between the Woodrow Wilson Bridge and Baltimore City (about 50 miles) is the T/A Truck Stop in Jessup, Howard County on Md. 175 (I-95 Exit 41), and that's there in part because it is in an area dominated by warehouses and state corrections facilities. 

Aside from that one truck stop in Jessup, the rest are along the (nominally) tolled JFK Highway segment of I-95 in Cecil County (going north, this is the last county before Delaware where the Chesapeake House service plaza is located). The Maryland House [currently closed for reconstruction] service plaza is in Harford County.

[Scott5114]

However, I think it is reasonable to conclude from this data that if a state without commercialized rest areas were to introduce them on the scale of Maryland House and Chesapeake House, that the local businesses near the interchanges would experience a major net loss of business volume.  At least I can understand why the national small business associations are so opposed to it, and why they don't what to see the system changed.

I am not seeing anywhere in the source what their criteria is for counting a particular business in their chart, unfortunately.

It's a summary.  I would think that it means vehicle service and food businesses near the interchanges..

Oh, it's certainly expected that they will oppose it. Businesses and business associations will oppose anything that they might see as bad for business. That doesn't mean we have to value their desire to be in business over the potential benefits of having service plazas.

Businesses can't win on the convenience offered by service plazas. A clever business owner, however, can still make the best of the situation by competing on something like price, quality, or something along those lines. Especially if plaza businesses are weak on one of those in some way (more expensive gas at the plaza, dirty bathrooms, bad service, lower-quality food). Then it simply a matter of marketing to get people thinking "Hey, if I just go to Exit 238 instead of the plaza, I can get better food and service."

The reason why I was questioning the methodology was because you could get very different results depending on things like the distance cutoff for "close to the interstate", the types of businesses included in the list, etc. Without the methodology being disclosed we have no way of knowing if it was just some guy doing it looking at Google Maps counting stuff according to his whims.

[Beltway]

Oh, it's certainly expected that they will oppose it. Businesses and business associations will oppose anything that they might see as bad for business. That doesn't mean we have to value their desire to be in business over the potential benefits of having service plazas.

I don't see what the benefits would be, other than to a few large corporations.  Personally to the motorist I would see a lot fewer choices and an unpredictable outcome.  Not a transition chance that I would want to see in my state (VA).

Businesses can't win on the convenience offered by service plazas. A clever business owner, however, can still make the best of the situation by competing on something like price, quality, or something along those lines. Especially if plaza businesses are weak on one of those in some way (more expensive gas at the plaza, dirty bathrooms, bad service, lower-quality food). Then it simply a matter of marketing to get people thinking "Hey, if I just go to Exit 238 instead of the plaza, I can get better food and service."

Small food and service businesses on highways are not good candidates for niche specialization.

Due to their advantageous locations, state-owned commercial rest areas establish virtual monopolies on the sale of services to highway travelers.  National small business associations don't see that as a situation where they can compete successfully.

The reason why I was questioning the methodology was because you could get very different results depending on things like the distance cutoff for "close to the interstate", the types of businesses included in the list, etc. Without the methodology being disclosed we have no way of knowing if it was just some guy doing it looking at Google Maps counting stuff according to his whims.

So because they won't spoonfeed every detail to you, you want to handwave.

The I-95 MD/VA example is quite obvious, my own experience on the corridor over the years is that VA has vastly more of those stores at interchanges as compared to MD.

There are a bunch of links from various small business associations that take the opposing stance.

Allowing states to set up shop along the interstates threatens more than 97,000 businesses nationwide and jeopardizes 2.2 million jobs.

[deathtopumpkins]

But regardless of how many off-Interstate businesses would be hurt by the commercialization of rest areas, almost all of them would be national chains anyway (as I think was previously mentioned). People like me always stop at chains for food because we know what to expect at them. And now that almost everyone has a smartphone or GPS that can guide them straight to the nearest fast food location of their choosing, it's easier than ever to get off the Interstate to get food. Previously people stuck to on-Interstate services (where available) because they knew what was there, yet they could get off an exit and be unable to find anything good, wasting time. And what does it matter whether or not we stop at a national chain off an exit or a national chain in a service plaza? Gas we make a point of never buying at a service plaza because it's always more expensive. I always get gas off-interstate in Connecticut, and make sure I get it before getting on the MassPike (same goes for the NJTP, but it's really the entire state of NJ and it's because I refuse to let someone else pump my gas). I myself have never filled up my tank at a service plaza, and I don't see that changing.

Now you could argue that even if they're national chains it would hurt the franchise owners, but franchises come and go all the time. They go in and out of business just like everyone else. And guess what, if you commercialize rest areas, that's a new franchise opportunity! What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza? So long as the state made it an open process and let companies bid on the service plaza franchises rather than just awarding them to friends of politicians, it all remains free enterprise. I don't see why the businesses in the service plaza can't operate just like businesses off the interstate.

[Beltway]

But regardless of how many off-Interstate businesses would be hurt by the commercialization of rest areas, almost all of them would be national chains anyway (as I think was previously mentioned).

This was previously mentioned --

Many of the chains are operated on a franchise basis, in that the stores operate according to chain standards, while the individual stores are owned and managed by the proprietor of that store. So many of those chain stores are in effect individually small businesses.

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

[deathtopumpkins]

But regardless of how many off-Interstate businesses would be hurt by the commercialization of rest areas, almost all of them would be national chains anyway (as I think was previously mentioned).

This was previously mentioned --

Many of the chains are operated on a franchise basis, in that the stores operate according to chain standards, while the individual stores are owned and managed by the proprietor of that store. So many of those chain stores are in effect individually small businesses.

Yes but you didn't address the rest of my post where I explained that franchises are constantly going in and out of business anyway, that many people would still get off the interstate, and that those same franchises could open up in a service plaza.

This is, after all, a free market economy. As long as any business that could afford to and wanted to was allowed to open in the service plaza, there's nothing unfair about it. It's not a monopoly if people can still get off the interstate.

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Why wouldn't it be? If there's currently a McDonald's franchise at the nearest interchange, why couldn't there now be a McDonald's at the service plaza?

[Beltway]

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Why wouldn't it be? If there's currently a McDonald's franchise at the nearest interchange, why couldn't there now be a McDonald's at the service plaza?

Because one large plaza would have the sales volume of what is currently at the 5 to 10 nearest interchanges.  Those 30+ small businesses would not relocate to the plaza, at the plaza there would be one massive service station and one massive restaurant; that is the way that they operate.  Most of those small businesses would go out of business, and the large corporation running the plaza would not care.

[intelati49]

I like how this thread has become "Rest area Privatization argument" ... It's Related, but come on people, lets stay on topic here, please. 

[vdeane]

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Why wouldn't it be? If there's currently a McDonald's franchise at the nearest interchange, why couldn't there now be a McDonald's at the service plaza?

Because one large plaza would have the sales volume of what is currently at the 5 to 10 nearest interchanges.  Those 30+ small businesses would not relocate to the plaza, at the plaza there would be one massive service station and one massive restaurant; that is the way that they operate.  Most of those small businesses would go out of business, and the large corporation running the plaza would not care.

I don't know about the really big plazas seen in places like NJ and MD, but here in NY our plaza businesses are about the same size as the regular franchises.  IMO those are oversized, probably because the plazas themselves have become tourist traps.

[Mr_Northside]

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Thirty???
Sounds more like a mall than a highway service plaza....



Also.... ON TOPIC,

Around here, a lot of people really hate how the use of oil-and-chips has increased pretty dramatically (over just repaving) as a way of saving scarce money when it comes to road preservation. 

[kphoger]

Thirty???
Sounds more like a mall than a highway service plaza....

I was wondering what sort of town has 30 cheap restaurants at one exit.

[cpzilliacus]

Thirty???
Sounds more like a mall than a highway service plaza....

I was wondering what sort of town has 30 cheap restaurants at one exit.

I don't know if they have thirty places, but the largest collection I have seen with my own eyes is probably on I-95 in the City of Fredericksburg, Virginia at Exit 130 (Va. 3, Plank Road) - Google Maps here.  Note especially the Carl D. Silver Parkway, to the immediate northwest of the interchange.  That's where the Central Park shopping center is located.  There are at least a dozen eating establishments (many of them "cheap" in nature) in the Central Park center, and there are more along Va. 3 on the east and west sides of I-95.

[cpzilliacus]

Gas we make a point of never buying at a service plaza because it's always more expensive. I always get gas off-interstate in Connecticut, and make sure I get it before getting on the MassPike (same goes for the NJTP, but it's really the entire state of NJ and it's because I refuse to let someone else pump my gas). I myself have never filled up my tank at a service plaza, and I don't see that changing.

Curiously, for those of us that drive vehicles that use Diesel fuel (my pickup is Diesel), some of the cheapest per-gallon prices to be found anywhere in the East were at the full-service pumps at the Sunoco stations on the New Jersey  Turnpike (though I don't think this is the case any longer). 

I understand that the New Jersey Turnpike Authority arranged to have lower Diesel prices as a way to encourage at least some truckers to use the Turnpike instead of parallel local roads like U.S. 1 and U.S. 130 (and maybe I-295).   Not sure that the Turnpike's Sunoco stations still have cut-rate Diesel (it's been a few years since I have driven my truck on the Pike).

[jeffandnicole]

But regardless of how many off-Interstate businesses would be hurt by the commercialization of rest areas, almost all of them would be national chains anyway (as I think was previously mentioned).

This was previously mentioned --

Many of the chains are operated on a franchise basis, in that the stores operate according to chain standards, while the individual stores are owned and managed by the proprietor of that store. So many of those chain stores are in effect individually small businesses.

Yes but you didn't address the rest of my post where I explained that franchises are constantly going in and out of business anyway, that many people would still get off the interstate, and that those same franchises could open up in a service plaza.

This is, after all, a free market economy. As long as any business that could afford to and wanted to was allowed to open in the service plaza, there's nothing unfair about it. It's not a monopoly if people can still get off the interstate.

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Why wouldn't it be? If there's currently a McDonald's franchise at the nearest interchange, why couldn't there now be a McDonald's at the service plaza?

Restaurants and franchisees also own rights to the area around their location.  Using McDonalds as an example, if a McDonalds is opened in a specific location, then no other McDonalds can be opened within a 3 mile area.  So if that area included a proposed service plaza, another franchisee or even a corporate-owned McDonalds would not be permitted to open a restaurant there, unless the franchisee gave up that right.

Of course, there are plenty of McDonalds near each other.  Many times - they are corporate owned, or the same franchisee owns them.

[deathtopumpkins]

Gas we make a point of never buying at a service plaza because it's always more expensive. I always get gas off-interstate in Connecticut, and make sure I get it before getting on the MassPike (same goes for the NJTP, but it's really the entire state of NJ and it's because I refuse to let someone else pump my gas). I myself have never filled up my tank at a service plaza, and I don't see that changing.

Curiously, for those of us that drive vehicles that use Diesel fuel (my pickup is Diesel), some of the cheapest per-gallon prices to be found anywhere in the East were at the full-service pumps at the Sunoco stations on the New Jersey  Turnpike (though I don't think this is the case any longer). 

I understand that the New Jersey Turnpike Authority arranged to have lower Diesel prices as a way to encourage at least some truckers to use the Turnpike instead of parallel local roads like U.S. 1 and U.S. 130 (and maybe I-295).   Not sure that the Turnpike's Sunoco stations still have cut-rate Diesel (it's been a few years since I have driven my truck on the Pike).

Which is why I singled out the NJTP as the one road I don't avoid due to high prices, but rather my desire to pump my own gas.

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Why wouldn't it be? If there's currently a McDonald's franchise at the nearest interchange, why couldn't there now be a McDonald's at the service plaza?

Because one large plaza would have the sales volume of what is currently at the 5 to 10 nearest interchanges.  Those 30+ small businesses would not relocate to the plaza, at the plaza there would be one massive service station and one massive restaurant; that is the way that they operate.  Most of those small businesses would go out of business, and the large corporation running the plaza would not care.

I have never seen a service plaza with only one massive restaurant. All the toll road service plazas I've ever stopped at have had a selection of restaurants in them (this holds true along the MassPike, the Maine Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, the JFK Hwy plazas) plus often times convenience stores too. The only exception is smaller ones crammed into roads in NYC/CT.

But regardless of how many off-Interstate businesses would be hurt by the commercialization of rest areas, almost all of them would be national chains anyway (as I think was previously mentioned).

This was previously mentioned --

Many of the chains are operated on a franchise basis, in that the stores operate according to chain standards, while the individual stores are owned and managed by the proprietor of that store. So many of those chain stores are in effect individually small businesses.

Yes but you didn't address the rest of my post where I explained that franchises are constantly going in and out of business anyway, that many people would still get off the interstate, and that those same franchises could open up in a service plaza.

This is, after all, a free market economy. As long as any business that could afford to and wanted to was allowed to open in the service plaza, there's nothing unfair about it. It's not a monopoly if people can still get off the interstate.

What's to stop a franchise owner from closing his off-Interstate location and reopening in the service plaza?

Because of the scale, one plaza could provide the volume of 30 or more small businesses.  Large corporations would control who operates at the plaza, and it wouldn't be the ones now at the interchanges.

Why wouldn't it be? If there's currently a McDonald's franchise at the nearest interchange, why couldn't there now be a McDonald's at the service plaza?

Restaurants and franchisees also own rights to the area around their location.  Using McDonalds as an example, if a McDonalds is opened in a specific location, then no other McDonalds can be opened within a 3 mile area.  So if that area included a proposed service plaza, another franchisee or even a corporate-owned McDonalds would not be permitted to open a restaurant there, unless the franchisee gave up that right.

Of course, there are plenty of McDonalds near each other.  Many times - they are corporate owned, or the same franchisee owns them.

Which is why I said that businesses could probably just move into the service plaza. If they can't open another location, just move an existing one. If the service plaza would draw as much traffic as "30 off-Interstate locations" I'm sure a franchise owner would happily relocate to it!

[Beltway]

Thirty???
Sounds more like a mall than a highway service plaza....

I was wondering what sort of town has 30 cheap restaurants at one exit.

I don't know if they have thirty places, but the largest collection I have seen with my own eyes is probably on I-95 in the City of Fredericksburg, Virginia at Exit 130 (Va. 3, Plank Road) - Google Maps here.  Note especially the Carl D. Silver Parkway, to the immediate northwest of the interchange.  That's where the Central Park shopping center is located.  There are at least a dozen eating establishments (many of them "cheap" in nature) in the Central Park center, and there are more along Va. 3 on the east and west sides of I-95.

I said OVER 5 TO 10 INTERCHANGES.

[Beltway]

I have never seen a service plaza with only one massive restaurant. All the toll road service plazas I've ever stopped at have had a selection of restaurants in them (this holds true along the MassPike, the Maine Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, the JFK Hwy plazas) plus often times convenience stores too. The only exception is smaller ones crammed into roads in NYC/CT.

I've never seen one with more than two service brands and two restaurants.

Which is why I said that businesses could probably just move into the service plaza. If they can't open another location, just move an existing one. If the service plaza would draw as much traffic as "30 off-Interstate locations" I'm sure a franchise owner would happily relocate to it!

That's absurd.  A service plaza won't have 30 businesses.  Nor will the half dozen major service brands and the dozen or so restaurant brands, move to the service plaza.