Interstate 11 alignment, though Vegas and points north

[Bobby5280]

The town of Hawthorne itself poses the biggest obstacle for a new Interstate. There just isn't enough room to expand the 2-lane highway into a 4-lane divided highway flanked by frontage roads. Hawthorne Airport, the cemetery on the North side of town, the development in Babbitt on the NW side of Hawthorne all put a tight squeeze on any road expansion designs. The whole thing is surrounded by Army property.

Those obstacles have to be a key reason why there is an optional I-11 route study alternative following Pole Line Road going NW out of Tonopah.

[Sub-Urbanite]

I've always felt that I-11 should have a new alignment from at least Goldfield north, either:

1. crossing diagonally across the desert directly from Goldfield to Coaldale Junction, bypassing Tonopah and cutting about 20 miles off the alignment. This would improve access to lithium operations in Silver Peak but really give the shaft to Tonopah, turning it from the midway point on the drive into essentially a regional services center for a very sparsely populated region, or,

2. Use Pole Line and a new alignment west of Gabbs, which would require clearance from the Walker River Paiute Tribe if I-11 is to connect to USA Parkway and likely from the Navy if it's going to go from Gabbs to Fallon instead.

The town of Hawthorne itself poses the biggest obstacle for a new Interstate. There just isn't enough room to expand the 2-lane highway into 4-lane divided highway flanked by frontage roads. Hawthorne Airport, the cemetery on the North side of town, the development in Babbitt on the NW side of Hawthorne all put a tight squeeze on any road expansion designs. The whole thing is surrounded by Army property.

Those obstacles have to be a key reason why there is an optional I-11 route study alternative following Pole Line Road going NW out of Tonopah.

[DenverBrian]

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

I think the AAP makes it difficult for right-of-way expansion and interstate conversion. It's not unprecedented for a freeway to be built through a military base (see NC 24/87/210 in Fayetteville / Fort Liberty), but being an ammo depot, maybe they would be more sensitive about it, particularly with clearing the ordinance.

Hopefully, they'd clear the ordnance, although there may be one or more ordinances in the way too.

[Scott5114]

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

Nevada is not like Oklahoma where you can just toss down a gas station any old place. In Oklahoma you can draw off of the power infrastructure that's already there and put in a shallow well and a septic system and you're in business. You know how in Oklahoma, even when you're in the middle of nowhere, you're still passing random trailers on acreages and things like that? None of that sort of thing exists in Nevada. When Nevada is empty, it is EMPTY. To put a gas station in here in between towns, you have to figure out how to run power to it, and then probably how  to pipe water in from somewhere because a well  is probably going to have jack shit in it unless you drill so far down they start feeling the vibrations in China.

Bypassing Hawthorne by that far would probably be a huge waste of money. Who is going to want to take a freeway with no gas stations on it?

[Sub-Urbanite]

It's 103 miles from Tonopah to Hawthorne.

A Pole Line Rd alignment would be able to offer services in Gabbs, about 70 miles from Tonopah.

That being said... by the time I-11 here opens the bulk of the fleet will be looking for a charging station, not a gas station.

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

Nevada is not like Oklahoma where you can just toss down a gas station any old place. In Oklahoma you can draw off of the power infrastructure that's already there and put in a shallow well and a septic system and you're in business. You know how in Oklahoma, even when you're in the middle of nowhere, you're still passing random trailers on acreages and things like that? None of that sort of thing exists in Nevada. When Nevada is empty, it is EMPTY. To put a gas station in here in between towns, you have to figure out how to run power to it, and then probably how  to pipe water in from somewhere because a well  is probably going to have jack shit in it unless you drill so far down they start feeling the vibrations in China.

Bypassing Hawthorne by that far would probably be a huge waste of money. Who is going to want to take a freeway with no gas stations on it?

[US 395]

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

Nevada is not like Oklahoma where you can just toss down a gas station any old place. In Oklahoma you can draw off of the power infrastructure that's already there and put in a shallow well and a septic system and you're in business. You know how in Oklahoma, even when you're in the middle of nowhere, you're still passing random trailers on acreages and things like that? None of that sort of thing exists in Nevada. When Nevada is empty, it is EMPTY. To put a gas station in here in between towns, you have to figure out how to run power to it, and then probably how  to pipe water in from somewhere because a well  is probably going to have jack shit in it unless you drill so far down they start feeling the vibrations in China.

Bypassing Hawthorne by that far would probably be a huge waste of money. Who is going to want to take a freeway with no gas stations on it?

There is a gas station in Schurz. It's just south of the turnoff for Alt 95. It even has chargers for EVs.

[US 395]

Well, if Lake Mead (and the river) dries up, Vegas will go back to being a railroad siding...

Anything's possible, I guess, but Vegas has gotten pretty good at maxing out the measly 4% of the river we're allowed to use. Just about everything that goes down the drain in Vegas gets recycled and reused. I remember seeing something saying that a given drop of water will go back and forth between Vegas and Lake Mead 17 times before it goes through Hoover Dam. And in 2027 it will become illegal to water decorative grass using Lake Mead water.

Point being, if the lake does dry up, California will start hurting way before anywhere in Nevada does. There are farms in Imperial County that use more water than the entire Las Vegas Valley does. (The Las Vegas TV news names and shames individual California farmers for this on slow news days.)

As a regular poster on FlyerTalk, there's often discussion about utilizing airport codes when referring to a city vs. an airport. Obviously, on that site, airport codes are much more widely known, so they're pretty common knowledge. Outside of aviation nerds, I would argue that there are very few cities that are referred to by their airport codes.

In local usage, LAS pretty much universally refers to the airport (and neatly avoids anyone biting your head off for calling it McCarran or Reid). The preferred abbreviation for the city, meanwhile, is just "LV".

It's 2% but yeah, the water conservation had to be done out of pure necessity. The 2% was also set at a time when Vegas was barely a small town and no one expected it to be the place it is today.

[FredAkbar]

A Pole Line Rd alignment would be able to offer services in Gabbs, about 70 miles from Tonopah.

There doesn't seem to be a gas station in Gabbs. How can people live 50+ miles from a gas station? Do people in that town just not drive at all?

[kkt]

A Pole Line Rd alignment would be able to offer services in Gabbs, about 70 miles from Tonopah.

There doesn't seem to be a gas station in Gabbs. How can people live 50+ miles from a gas station? Do people in that town just not drive at all?

Always fill up on their way back to Gabbs?

[Bobby5280]

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

If anyone went so far as building a new Interstate using Pole Line Road as a far more straight shot to Schurz chances are extremely likely new utility easements and lines would be included as part of the infrastructure. It's pretty common for power lines and telecommunications lines to follow alongside highways.

Water supply is another matter. But there apparently is some water supply in that desolate area. There is a big mining facility South of Gabbs (which this conceptual I-11 alignment would have to dodge around, just like CR-89). A little farther West there is an agricultural operation with 10 large round plots of irrigated crop land.

I think perhaps the most difficult aspect of the Pole Line Road alignment is that it would travel through the Walker River Reservation. Negotiations with tribe leadership might be very tricky. But they might welcome new infrastructure and chance to grow tribe-run businesses adjacent to a new highway.

The towns of Fallon and Fernley continue to be mentioned as likely North end points for how I-11 would reach I-80. I do not think it would be so easy routing the Interstate through there. The town of Fallon would have to be bypassed well to the South and West. There is zero feasible way I-11 could be punched directly through or even near that town.

Much of Alt US-50 from Fallon to Fernley is closely flanked with development and an existing rail line. An interchange with I-80 would have to be built well East of Fernley. It's too mountainous on the South and West sides of town. And there is too much existing development.

Those are the reasons I keep mentioning the NV-439 corridor going into Clark. That 4-lane divided road can be upgraded to Interstate standards more easily than Alt US-50. It would have the added benefit of reaching I-80 about 10 miles closer to Reno.

[DenverBrian]

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

Nevada is not like Oklahoma where you can just toss down a gas station any old place. In Oklahoma you can draw off of the power infrastructure that's already there and put in a shallow well and a septic system and you're in business. You know how in Oklahoma, even when you're in the middle of nowhere, you're still passing random trailers on acreages and things like that? None of that sort of thing exists in Nevada. When Nevada is empty, it is EMPTY. To put a gas station in here in between towns, you have to figure out how to run power to it, and then probably how  to pipe water in from somewhere because a well  is probably going to have jack shit in it unless you drill so far down they start feeling the vibrations in China.

Bypassing Hawthorne by that far would probably be a huge waste of money. Who is going to want to take a freeway with no gas stations on it?

Guess you've never driven I-70 in south central Utah...

[kkt]

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

Nevada is not like Oklahoma where you can just toss down a gas station any old place. In Oklahoma you can draw off of the power infrastructure that's already there and put in a shallow well and a septic system and you're in business. You know how in Oklahoma, even when you're in the middle of nowhere, you're still passing random trailers on acreages and things like that? None of that sort of thing exists in Nevada. When Nevada is empty, it is EMPTY. To put a gas station in here in between towns, you have to figure out how to run power to it, and then probably how  to pipe water in from somewhere because a well  is probably going to have jack shit in it unless you drill so far down they start feeling the vibrations in China.

Bypassing Hawthorne by that far would probably be a huge waste of money. Who is going to want to take a freeway with no gas stations on it?

That's what they said about I-5 in California's Central Valley.  It didn't take long for gas stations to start appearing.  Even if they have to truck in water.

[cl94]

The problem is that this would bypass Hawthorne, which is both the only place to find services in the area and a decent traffic generator in its own right (due to the Army ammunition plant there).

The Hawthorne AAP is the main employer in that location. And it's not as if that military employers wants a lot of general public traffic moving through that location. It might actually be a benefit to the Army if public Interstate highway traffic was shunted East over the side of the next mountain ridge.

Sure, but the services... When you leave Tonopah to the west there's already a "Next Gas 100 Miles" sign. (Okay, you can see a Love's in the distance so it's more like 98.) 100 miles away from that sign is Hawthorne. Schurz doesn't appear to have any gas, so your next gas is looking to be Fallon, which is about 150 miles from Tonopah even if you clip that corner you want to clip.

Nevada is not like Oklahoma where you can just toss down a gas station any old place. In Oklahoma you can draw off of the power infrastructure that's already there and put in a shallow well and a septic system and you're in business. You know how in Oklahoma, even when you're in the middle of nowhere, you're still passing random trailers on acreages and things like that? None of that sort of thing exists in Nevada. When Nevada is empty, it is EMPTY. To put a gas station in here in between towns, you have to figure out how to run power to it, and then probably how  to pipe water in from somewhere because a well  is probably going to have jack shit in it unless you drill so far down they start feeling the vibrations in China.

Bypassing Hawthorne by that far would probably be a huge waste of money. Who is going to want to take a freeway with no gas stations on it?

Guess you've never driven I-70 in south central Utah...

As it is, Tonopah to Hawthorne is 100 miles. Tonopah to Beatty is a little under 100 miles. US 95 already has multiple gaps similar in length to I-70 and that's with the existing towns. Unlike I-70, though, none of the side roads have a gas station 10 miles from US 95. Beatty, Tonopah, and Hawthorne are the only towns with services beyond a couple of random bars in the region. Bypassing Tonopah or Hawthorne would mean a loooooong distance between towns. Bypass both of them and you're talking well over 200 miles between towns with services.

Re: the Central Valley, the difference is that I-5 isn't that far from population centers along CA 33, CA 99, or any of the other myriad agricultural communities. Tonopah is literally the only town with more than a bar for 100 miles in any direction.

[PColumbus73]

The sticking point about Hawthorne is the military installation and what would it take to route an interstate in such a way that it doesn't require right-of-way from the military (which they would be likely unwilling to give up) and that doesn't just plow straight through the town.

That's not saying that Hawthorne shouldn't have interstate access, but it might not be feasible to do so.

[Bobby5280]

Having I-11 bypass Hawthorne to the East using Pole Line Road/CR-89 would shave about 20 miles off of the drive from Tonopah to Schurz. Or in this case, a point just North of Schurz

Such a road might be considerably cheaper to build than trying to upgrade US-95 along its meandering path.

If I-11 stuck to overlapping US-95 new bypasses would have to be built around the small towns of Mina and Luning; there isn't enough room along the existing US-95 ROW. As mentioned earlier, the Hawthorne Army Depot and town of Hawthorne pose some serious geometry road blocks for any Interstate-quality upgrades (especially anything that includes frontage roads). It could be pretty expensive having to get around all that crap and avoid a non-freeway Breezewood situation. Or you could just bypass it. The main point of I-11 in this region is moving traffic between the Reno and Vegas metros.

Interstate highways can also feature their own service plazas (in addition to rest areas). We have a few service plazas on our turnpikes here in Oklahoma. Loves just bought out all of them from EZ-GO. Service plazas can solve the problem about long distances without roadside services.

[kernals12]

Public meeting on extending I-11 to Mercury scheduled for June 25

Might as well go to at least NV 160.

As was pointed out in the I-11 thread, there's a pretty narrow gap between mountains between Mercury and NV-160 that would probably require blasting (or at the very least a pretty big alignment shift) to fit a divided highway through. I'm guessing that's why they're just leaving off at Mercury.

They did exactly that for the Boulder City bypass so anything's possible.

[cl94]

Public meeting on extending I-11 to Mercury scheduled for June 25

Might as well go to at least NV 160.

As was pointed out in the I-11 thread, there's a pretty narrow gap between mountains between Mercury and NV-160 that would probably require blasting (or at the very least a pretty big alignment shift) to fit a divided highway through. I'm guessing that's why they're just leaving off at Mercury.

They did exactly that for the Boulder City bypass so anything's possible.

The Boulder City bypass had far more utility. Not only does that corridor serve 5x the traffic, it's part of the Hoover Dam bypass. Remember that truck traffic was banned over the dam, requiring trucks to cross at Laughlin.

[Max Rockatansky]

Right after 9/11 the traffic at Hoover Dam was apocalyptic due to the security checkpoint.  AZ 68 and NV 163 was my favored cutoff route to US 95 for almost a year even with all the extra truck traffic.

[Bobby5280]

The current 4-lane configuration of US-95 drops down to 2 lanes past Mercury just for the sake of traffic counts. It doesn't have anything to do with the mountains just to the West of the Mercury interchange.

In Google Earth anyone could look at both the overhead imagery and Street View imagery of that part of US-95 and clearly see there is more than enough room for a second pair of lanes. They don't have to do any mountain blasting or even any cuts into sides of mountains. The only thing they'll need to do is grading work.

4-laning US-95 to a new freeway exit at NV-160 should not be any physical challenge. The same goes for reaching Amargosa Valley and NV-373. They'll probably have to give the Area 51 Alien Center parking lot a "haircut" though.

Beatty is the nearest point to Las Vegas that will likely need some serious hillside carving to get an I-11 route around the town.

[Sub-Urbanite]

This. As stated upthread, the Nevada Test Site had a sizable number of commuters from Las Vegas until nuclear testing was banned, so the expressway was built to Mercury.

The current 4-lane configuration of US-95 drops down to 2 lanes past Mercury just for the sake of traffic counts. It doesn't have anything to do with the mountains just to the West of the Mercury interchange.

[Max Rockatansky]

I love how this thread just keeps rolling back to the FritzOwlian methodology of justifying a freeway in the middle of nowhere.  Lord Owl was even big on getting an Interstate through the Nevada Test Site.  Quaint to recall a time when all of that was just a silly Fictional thread worth nothing more than a chuckle.

[vdeane]

I love how this thread just keeps rolling back to the FritzOwlian methodology of justifying a freeway in the middle of nowhere.  Lord Owl was even big on getting an Interstate through the Nevada Test Site.  Quaint to recall a time when all of that was just a silly Fictional thread worth nothing more than a chuckle.

This whole thread should probably be moved to Fictional at this point.

[gonealookin]

They'll probably have to give the Area 51 Alien Center parking lot a "haircut" though.

Well as long as they leave the "Alien Cathouse" in the back of that place as is I'm good with it.

[Sub-Urbanite]

I think there's a difference between "Let's draw lines on a map" and "This is one of the corridor alternatives under consideration"

I love how this thread just keeps rolling back to the FritzOwlian methodology of justifying a freeway in the middle of nowhere.  Lord Owl was even big on getting an Interstate through the Nevada Test Site.  Quaint to recall a time when all of that was just a silly Fictional thread worth nothing more than a chuckle.

[Max Rockatansky]

Oh I'm very much aware that NDOT opened the door for all this fantastical talk.  All the same it only makes it nominally less FritzOwlian.