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Author Topic: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge  (Read 44731 times)

froggie

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #225 on: February 14, 2020, 04:00:09 PM »

Full shoulders would have offered a facility...not as safe as a separate path, to be fair, but at least a path out of traffic, given that bicycles typically need a minimum of 4-5ft of width.

And there are safety benefits for shoulders that go far beyond a place for bikes to ride.  Not including them is a serious shortcoming.
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hbelkins

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #226 on: February 14, 2020, 04:07:21 PM »

Full shoulders would have offered a facility...not as safe as a separate path, to be fair, but at least a path out of traffic, given that bicycles typically need a minimum of 4-5ft of width.

And there are safety benefits for shoulders that go far beyond a place for bikes to ride.  Not including them is a serious shortcoming.

How was Kentucky able to build two four-lane bridges across two major lakes with separate bike facilities, but Maryland can't build one on a toll facility?
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #227 on: February 14, 2020, 04:26:10 PM »

^

Here's a good example of how such a bridge should be constructed.

Here's what is actually being constructed.

It's laughable IMO. If it was a roadway with light traffic volumes and no need for bicycle access, I could understand it, but that's not the case here.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #228 on: February 14, 2020, 05:35:21 PM »

Here's a good example of how such a bridge should be constructed.
Drove under and over them today.   In the ballpark of the length and height of the US-301 bridge. 
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #229 on: February 16, 2020, 02:56:19 PM »

Seriously, they should at least have full right shoulders.  IMO they should just ban bikes from the bridge, given that it will be a four-lane divided highway with traffic going by at 60 mph and nowhere for the bikes to go but the travel lanes.  The shoulders would also have provided space for a vehicle to go if they break down.  I don't understand how this travesty was allowed.

It's not good for cars either - who wants to slow down from 60 to 15 because they're stuck behind a bike?  And that's assuming they even see the bike, since nobody would expect a bike to be in the main travel lane on that type of road!  What was Maryland even thinking?

Guessing Maryland has greater jurisdiction over this bridge, versus Virginia, so Maryland is the primary decision maker?   Given it is Rahn (their DOT chief) am not surprised at the decision here of design regression.  Have viewed a great deal of his design regression here in New Mexico. 
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cpzilliacus

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #230 on: February 16, 2020, 03:06:17 PM »

Seriously, they should at least have full right shoulders.  IMO they should just ban bikes from the bridge, given that it will be a four-lane divided highway with traffic going by at 60 mph and nowhere for the bikes to go but the travel lanes.  The shoulders would also have provided space for a vehicle to go if they break down.  I don't understand how this travesty was allowed.

It's not good for cars either - who wants to slow down from 60 to 15 because they're stuck behind a bike?  And that's assuming they even see the bike, since nobody would expect a bike to be in the main travel lane on that type of road!  What was Maryland even thinking?

Guessing Maryland has greater jurisdiction over this bridge, versus Virginia, so Maryland is the primary decision maker?   Given it is Rahn (their DOT chief) am not surprised at the decision here of design regression.  Have viewed a great deal of his design regression here in New Mexico. 

Dating back to the 1632 royal grant of land by King Charles I to the Calvert family (including the Lords Baltimore who headed the Calvert family) that is now Maryland, the entire Potomac River, up to the "low water mark" on the Virginia shore, is Maryland territory. 

Pete Rahn was the Secretary of the Maryland Department of Transportation (MDOT) and that job is the chair of the Maryland Transportation Authority (MDTA) board, which makes the secretary the leader of MDTA too (MDTA is the state's toll road, toll bridge and toll tunnel agency). 

I say this in past-tense because Rahn retired from the job in January 2020. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 08:54:54 AM by cpzilliacus »
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #231 on: February 16, 2020, 03:11:20 PM »

Thank you for the clarification(s).  Figured it was something like that - most of the crossing was in Maryland's jurisdiction.  So where is Rahn heading next??  Having been in New Mexico, Kansas, Missouri and most recently Maryland.   
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cpzilliacus

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #232 on: February 16, 2020, 03:28:36 PM »

Thank you for the clarification(s).  Figured it was something like that - most of the crossing was in Maryland's jurisdiction.  So where is Rahn heading next??  Having been in New Mexico, Kansas, Missouri and most recently Maryland.

News media here said that he was moving back to New Mexico to be with his wife.  Apparently he is not looking for another job. 

Baltimore Sun ran an article in December 2019 about his (then impending) retirement here.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #233 on: February 16, 2020, 03:29:03 PM »

Guessing Maryland has greater jurisdiction over this bridge, versus Virginia, so Maryland is the primary decision maker?   Given it is Rahn (their DOT chief) am not surprised at the decision here of design regression.  Have viewed a great deal of his design regression here in New Mexico. 
Dating back to the 1632 royal grant of land by King Charles I to the Calvert family (including the Lords Baltimore) that is now Maryland, the entire Potomac River, up to the "low water mark" on the Virginia shore, is Maryland territory. 
… meaning that Maryland has complete ownership and administration of this bridge project.

Virginia has ownership and administration of the southern land approaches part of the project.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #234 on: February 16, 2020, 03:41:41 PM »

Guessing Maryland has greater jurisdiction over this bridge, versus Virginia, so Maryland is the primary decision maker?   Given it is Rahn (their DOT chief) am not surprised at the decision here of design regression.  Have viewed a great deal of his design regression here in New Mexico. 
Dating back to the 1632 royal grant of land by King Charles I to the Calvert family (including the Lords Baltimore) that is now Maryland, the entire Potomac River, up to the "low water mark" on the Virginia shore, is Maryland territory. 
… meaning that Maryland has complete ownership and administration of this bridge project.

Virginia has ownership and administration of the southern land approaches part of the project.

MDTA is building the re-alignment of U.S. 301 to the new crossing on the King George County, Virginia approach, though VDOT was in charge of real estate acquisition needed and that part of the project is being designed and engineered to comply with VDOT design standards.
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #235 on: February 16, 2020, 08:03:25 PM »

Seriously, they should at least have full right shoulders.  IMO they should just ban bikes from the bridge, given that it will be a four-lane divided highway with traffic going by at 60 mph and nowhere for the bikes to go but the travel lanes.  The shoulders would also have provided space for a vehicle to go if they break down.  I don't understand how this travesty was allowed.

It's not good for cars either - who wants to slow down from 60 to 15 because they're stuck behind a bike?  And that's assuming they even see the bike, since nobody would expect a bike to be in the main travel lane on that type of road!  What was Maryland even thinking?

Guessing Maryland has greater jurisdiction over this bridge, versus Virginia, so Maryland is the primary decision maker?   Given it is Rahn (their DOT chief) am not surprised at the decision here of design regression.  Have viewed a great deal of his design regression here in New Mexico. 
Still, there are landings and approaches in VA, and I imagine VDOT approval would be needed to touch them.  Plus the project would have to go through a federal environmental review process, likely obtaining permits from several agencies.  And, of course, there are the decision makers in Maryland, who must be completely brain dead to think that this was a good idea.  I cannot possibly believe that nobody had a problem with this.
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interstate73

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #236 on: February 16, 2020, 08:38:16 PM »

Might they be able to keep the old bridge for bike and pedestrian traffic? Still wouldn't excuse the lack of full shoulders on a brand new bridge in the year of our Lord 2020 even if they did though...

Edit: Just took a look at the project website and yeah they are planning to take down the old bridge. Really inexcusable that this design made it to approval
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 08:42:04 PM by interstate73 »
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #237 on: February 16, 2020, 09:18:00 PM »

Still, there are landings and approaches in VA, and I imagine VDOT approval would be needed to touch them.  Plus the project would have to go through a federal environmental review process, likely obtaining permits from several agencies.  And, of course, there are the decision makers in Maryland, who must be completely brain dead to think that this was a good idea.  I cannot possibly believe that nobody had a problem with this.
VDOT developed their project for widening/realigning the southern land approach, with preliminary engineering, design, public hearings and right-of-way acquisition.

Cost - $13 million
Purpose – Widen and realign the Virginia approach to the Route 301 bridge over the
Potomac River in support of, and coordination with, the Maryland Transportation Authority’s Nice-Middleton Bridge Replacement project. 
Improvements – Widen Route 301 to four lanes, relocate Roseland Road intersection, install southbound turn lane at Barnesfield Road.
 
State Project – 0301-048, P101, UPC 114048
Federal Project: NHPP-048-6(058)

http://www.virginiadot.org/Projects/Fredericksburg/asset_upload_file711_135477.pdf
. . . . . . .

They also have it programmed in the Six Year Program --

UPC  114048
Project  NICE BRIDGE REPLACEMENT - APPROACH ROADWAY IMPROVMENTS
Scope of Work   Reconstruction w/o Added Capacity
Estimated Cost     (Thousands) Schedule
Prelim. Eng. (PE)     $1,000      Underway
Right of Way (RW)   $2,800      FY2022
Construction (CN)    $9,200      FY2023
Total Estimate        $13,000

http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=1576035
. . . . . . . . .

It appears to me that VDOT will award their own contract for the Virginia portion … or is MDTA going to construct it as part of their contract for the bridge and northern approaches?
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #238 on: February 16, 2020, 09:24:09 PM »

Might they be able to keep the old bridge for bike and pedestrian traffic? Still wouldn't excuse the lack of full shoulders on a brand new bridge in the year of our Lord 2020 even if they did though...
Edit: Just took a look at the project website and yeah they are planning to take down the old bridge. Really inexcusable that this design made it to approval
The old bridge would cost way too much to maintain, and while small there would be some water flow friction that would necessitate removing the old bridge.

The solution would be to include 10-foot right shoulders on the new bridge.
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D-Dey65

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #239 on: February 16, 2020, 10:29:20 PM »

Still, there are landings and approaches in VA, and I imagine VDOT approval would be needed to touch them.  Plus the project would have to go through a federal environmental review process, likely obtaining permits from several agencies.  And, of course, there are the decision makers in Maryland, who must be completely brain dead to think that this was a good idea.  I cannot possibly believe that nobody had a problem with this.
VDOT developed their project for widening/realigning the southern land approach, with preliminary engineering, design, public hearings and right-of-way acquisition.

Cost - $13 million
Purpose – Widen and realign the Virginia approach to the Route 301 bridge over the
Potomac River in support of, and coordination with, the Maryland Transportation Authority’s Nice-Middleton Bridge Replacement project. 
Improvements – Widen Route 301 to four lanes, relocate Roseland Road intersection, install southbound turn lane at Barnesfield Road.
 
State Project – 0301-048, P101, UPC 114048
Federal Project: NHPP-048-6(058)

http://www.virginiadot.org/Projects/Fredericksburg/asset_upload_file711_135477.pdf
. . . . . . .

They also have it programmed in the Six Year Program --

UPC  114048
Project  NICE BRIDGE REPLACEMENT - APPROACH ROADWAY IMPROVMENTS
Scope of Work   Reconstruction w/o Added Capacity
Estimated Cost     (Thousands) Schedule
Prelim. Eng. (PE)     $1,000      Underway
Right of Way (RW)   $2,800      FY2022
Construction (CN)    $9,200      FY2023
Total Estimate        $13,000

http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=1576035
. . . . . . . . .

It appears to me that VDOT will award their own contract for the Virginia portion … or is MDTA going to construct it as part of their contract for the bridge and northern approaches?
I'd better get a picture of the Blue Star Memorial Highway marker at the current bridge before they start working on the replacement. Originally I was torn between going on US 301 so I could get some shots of the run down no-frills motels across the Potomac, and the newer version of the US 1 Occoquan River Bridges. Now I realize I'm going to have to get US 1 on the way back down.

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ixnay

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #240 on: February 17, 2020, 08:22:42 AM »

Thank you for the clarification(s).  Figured it was something like that - most of the crossing was in Maryland's jurisdiction.  So where is Rahn heading next??  Having been in New Mexico, Kansas, Missouri and most recently Maryland.

News media here said that he was moving back to New Mexico to be with his wife.  Apparently he is not looking for another job. 

Baltimore Sun ran an article in December 2019 about his (then impending) retirement here.

The acting secretary is Greg Slater.

http://www.mdot.maryland.gov/newMDOT/Secretarys_Welcome/secretary_message.html

ixnay
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cpzilliacus

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #241 on: February 17, 2020, 09:00:06 AM »

The old bridge would cost way too much to maintain, and while small there would be some water flow friction that would necessitate removing the old bridge.

The solution would be to include 10-foot right shoulders on the new bridge.

The old bridge dates to 1940, when it was completed and opened to traffic. 

I am not aware of any formal study having been made of retaining the old structure as a pedestrian and bike crossing.  The question that would need to be answered is this - what are the costs to keep it safe for use for that purpose?  Presumably the costs would go down since there would no longer be heavy trucks crossing, but even with just light use, the structure still needs to be inspected on a periodic basis and the structural steel needs to be painted every so often too.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #242 on: February 17, 2020, 10:59:48 AM »

It appears to me that VDOT will award their own contract for the Virginia portion … or is MDTA going to construct it as part of their contract for the bridge and northern approaches?

My understanding is that the MDTA contract for the bridge and northern approach will also cover the re-alignment of U.S. 301 in King George County. 
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #243 on: February 17, 2020, 09:00:47 PM »

Still, there are landings and approaches in VA, and I imagine VDOT approval would be needed to touch them.  Plus the project would have to go through a federal environmental review process, likely obtaining permits from several agencies.  And, of course, there are the decision makers in Maryland, who must be completely brain dead to think that this was a good idea.  I cannot possibly believe that nobody had a problem with this.
VDOT developed their project for widening/realigning the southern land approach, with preliminary engineering, design, public hearings and right-of-way acquisition.

Cost - $13 million
Purpose – Widen and realign the Virginia approach to the Route 301 bridge over the
Potomac River in support of, and coordination with, the Maryland Transportation Authority’s Nice-Middleton Bridge Replacement project. 
Improvements – Widen Route 301 to four lanes, relocate Roseland Road intersection, install southbound turn lane at Barnesfield Road.
 
State Project – 0301-048, P101, UPC 114048
Federal Project: NHPP-048-6(058)

http://www.virginiadot.org/Projects/Fredericksburg/asset_upload_file711_135477.pdf
. . . . . . .

They also have it programmed in the Six Year Program --

UPC  114048
Project  NICE BRIDGE REPLACEMENT - APPROACH ROADWAY IMPROVMENTS
Scope of Work   Reconstruction w/o Added Capacity
Estimated Cost     (Thousands) Schedule
Prelim. Eng. (PE)     $1,000      Underway
Right of Way (RW)   $2,800      FY2022
Construction (CN)    $9,200      FY2023
Total Estimate        $13,000

http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=1576035
. . . . . . . . .

It appears to me that VDOT will award their own contract for the Virginia portion … or is MDTA going to construct it as part of their contract for the bridge and northern approaches?
Even so, Google has the state border here, and in any case it's defined as the low watermark, not inland, so the footing of the bridge is still in Virginia and therefore VDOT jurisdiction, regardless of whether Maryland is doing the work or not.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #244 on: February 17, 2020, 09:16:10 PM »

It appears to me that VDOT will award their own contract for the Virginia portion … or is MDTA going to construct it as part of their contract for the bridge and northern approaches?
My understanding is that the MDTA contract for the bridge and northern approach will also cover the re-alignment of U.S. 301 in King George County. 
It is hard to tell from the VDOT cites and the MDTA news releases.

The SYIP lists it as an 0.5 mile VDOT project, with right-of-way acquisition not yet complete, and construction 2 years in the future --
Right of Way (RW)   $2,800      FY2022
Construction (CN)    $9,200      FY2023

Nevertheless, this could be part of the bridge and approaches contract, and the VA part won't need to be built immediately when the bridge will take 3 years to build.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #245 on: February 17, 2020, 09:20:51 PM »

Even so, Google has the state border here, and in any case it's defined as the low watermark, not inland, so the footing of the bridge is still in Virginia and therefore VDOT jurisdiction, regardless of whether Maryland is doing the work or not.
Indeed, about 305 feet of the bridge is in Virginia.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge has about 2,020 feet in Virginia, but the project agreement gave the whole bridge project to MSHA for construction administration.
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #246 on: February 17, 2020, 10:29:06 PM »

Indeed, about 305 feet of the bridge is in Virginia.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge has about 2,020 feet in Virginia, but the project agreement gave the whole bridge project to MSHA for construction administration.

This is consistent with how the American Legion Bridge on I-495 between Great Falls, Virginia and Carderock, Maryland was re-decked and widened out to 10 total lanes in the late 1980's or early 1990's.  The construction contract went a short distance beyond the first expansion joint of the bridge on the Virginia side (which is well into the Commonwealth), since work to hook up to Virginia's part of I-495 had to be done with the new configuration of the bridge.  It may have gone as far back as the bridge that carries the George Washington Memorial Parkway over I-495, but I do not remember any longer (it was a long time ago).
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D-Dey65

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #247 on: May 08, 2020, 02:34:59 PM »

Is the construction of the new bridge still on the same schedule? Because I have a bad feeling there's no way in hell I'm going to get a picture of the Blue Star Memorial Highway marker near the Dahlgren Wayside Park.
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #248 on: May 08, 2020, 11:42:34 PM »

Is the construction of the new bridge still on the same schedule? Because I have a bad feeling there's no way in hell I'm going to get a picture of the Blue Star Memorial Highway marker near the Dahlgren Wayside Park.

A contract has been awarded, but I have not been down there since before the Maryland lock-down started (come to think of it, I was there last November). 
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D-Dey65

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #249 on: May 09, 2020, 12:32:50 AM »

A contract has been awarded, but I have not been down there since before the Maryland lock-down started (come to think of it, I was there last November). 
Yeah, that's when I was there. I snapped a few pics of the wayside park, but didn't think to get the Blue Star Memorial Highway plaque.

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