NE governors closing roads

[6a]

What, in fact, are the enforcement practices on a travel ban? Anybody here ever been called out for violating one?

In Ohio you are threatened with arrest during a level 3 emergency, but I've never heard of anyone actually being arrested.

In Kentucky, I have navigated some pretty good snowstorms in years past. We had more than two feet of snow on the ground on Valentine's Day in either 1985 or 1986. I had no trouble getting around, driving an Old Cutlass with rear-wheel drive and studded snow tires.

Lemme tell you, son, I used to walk to school in snow over my head    But seriously, when I lived in Virginia we had one of these come through and drop a couple feet overnight.  Me, the dumb Ohioan with a Jeep decided to go to work the next morning anyway, and it was obviously closed.  On the way back home I was stopped at the county line by the state police who said "Sorry, county's closed."  I explained I was from Ohio and had 4-wheel drive.  He poked his head in the window to see the 4WD indicator, said "Ohio?  Alright, I ain't pulling you out." and sent me on my way.

edit: haha, someone sent me this link, from 1978 in Toledo.

[corco]

See, right there is a key difference between Wyoming and New England: people in New England have no concept of adding something to their tires for better traction. Nobody owns tire chains, and nobody would know how to put them on if they had them. The only vehicles you ever see sporting chains are maintenance trucks and sometimes buses. People in their cars either get enough traction with just their bare tires or they slip and slide.

Since that's the case then a closure is definitely warranted because not closing the roads is just going to lead to enough accidents that the road is effectively closed anyway.

[vdeane]

In upstate NY most people don't even know about these things called "snow tires", which is most unfortunate.  Nearly every winter storm the main challenge has not been to stay on the road but to pass all the people driving 15 mph because they don't have snow tires.  This once even resulted in me having the Thruway to myself for about 20 miles.

One time going up I-81, the road was completely passable at high speeds with snow tires but everyone was going 20 because of the multi-car pileups that inevitably happen when people forget what "winter" is.  A large accident even resulted in the closure of southbound I-81 between Sandy Creek and Pulaski.

[cu2010]

I don't have snow tires.

I routinely drive 45+ on snow-covered roads. Yes, even I-81.

I have never put a car in a ditch. Ever. Or been in an accident.

The trick is knowing how to drive in the winter- which a lot of people don't. You don't need snow tires.

[corco]

I routinely drive 45+ on snow-covered roads. Yes, even I-81.

I have never put a car in a ditch. Ever. Or been in an accident.

The trick is knowing how to drive in the winter- which a lot of people don't. You don't need snow tires.

Agreed that once you're moving tires don't matter unless you're trying to stop, but if you're stopped at the bottom of a snow covered hill and have to drive up it and don't have a way to get a good running start, no amount of driving skill is going to get you up to the top of that hill unless you have good tires. I'll go 70 on US-93 in Nevada on snow on a clear day without snow tires- there's no cars on that road and you can see a mile ahead but snow tires do make that a safer proposition.

That's not the issue though. I-81 is probably plowed/packed to the point that you're driving on a solid surface when you're going 45 down it. The issue here is what happens when I-81 isn't plowed or even really compacted down and there's been a massive dumping of snow.

Rural Idaho/Montana/Wyoming doesn't have reliable plowing, and I'm guessing rural Kentucky doesn't either, so when two feet of snow fall you're stuck with trying to drive through several inches of snow (usually some function of amount of snow fallen-amount of snow blown off by wind into the ditch-how much it's been compacted by other cars), and that's where you need snow tires.

A snowstorm a la the one that happened a couple days ago is probably going to leave the roads much like that- hence the need for snow tires. Now, sure, you might be able to pass it with some decent all-seasons and a lot of skill depending on the car, but that's a tiny subset of drivers. Snow tires aren't magical, but they do make life a lot easier.

Where I live in Montana right now, they don't even plow city streets- we have more snow on the roads right now than we do on the ground!

[empirestate]

I don't have snow tires.

I routinely drive 45+ on snow-covered roads. Yes, even I-81.

I have never put a car in a ditch. Ever. Or been in an accident.

The trick is knowing how to drive in the winter- which a lot of people don't. You don't need snow tires.

You also don't need e-mail or a phone to send somebody a message. But it is easier.

I'll give you this, though: snow tires don't replace good winter judgment. They enable you to move through some areas you otherwise mightn't, but accidents are not about tires. After all, even the awesomest tires in the world are only any good if they're still connected to the road.

It's funny about areas like Upstate NY, which are used to snow. The locals always guffaw about how poorly places like Texas and Georgia handle small amounts of snow or ice, yet every winter in Upstate NY, you look around at the other drivers and just can't believe how much everyone seems to have forgotten!

My general rule for winter driving is this: go no faster than you want to be going when you hit something.

[Alps]

Being in Rhode Island last weekend, my understanding was that if we attempted to drive during the ban, we would be stopped and ticketed - at least in Connecticut, and maybe in RI as well. CT was still digging out all over the place yesterday morning, so if it was that bad after a full day of plowing, it must have been impassable Saturday.

[agentsteel53]

I have no idea how that would work in an urban area- maybe put a sheriff at every interchange?

yep.  once I-10 was closed in Louisiana due to ice, and the sheriffs were out in huge numbers, diverting traffic onto US-61.  I have no idea what the penalty was; since there was an alternate, there was no reason to attempt to get on the freeway.

[jeffandnicole]

The way I see it, when it's 90 degrees and sunny, people have no problem calling out 'sick' from work and spend the day at the beach, the lake, etc.

When it's 20 degrees in a blizzard, everyone feels they have to be a hero, and their international company will collaspe if they're not in the office. 

So sometimes, the travel ban just needs to be in place to encourage people that, yes, really, the world will survive if you're not in the office to answer the phones.

See, right there is a key difference between Wyoming and New England: people in New England have no concept of adding something to their tires for better traction. Nobody owns tire chains, and nobody would know how to put them on if they had them. The only vehicles you ever see sporting chains are maintenance trucks and sometimes buses. People in their cars either get enough traction with just their bare tires or they slip and slide.

Since that's the case then a closure is definitely warranted because not closing the roads is just going to lead to enough accidents that the road is effectively closed anyway.

Realize as well, the nearest comparison to this storm was the Blizzard of '78.  Most people are not going to have chains to get their cars thru the snow when a storm of this magnitude occurs every 35 years.  And when the storm does occur, we're talking 2 days at most to plow out the main roads and get traffic moving. 

[StogieGuy7]

This particular storm was very severe, especially in Southern New England and on Long Island.  People really needed to be off the roads for their own good.   There were some qualms about the 'one size fits all' road closure in MA at 4 pm on Friday, but by Friday evening it was clear that nobody should be out there unless absolutely necessary (i.e. first responders and cleanup crews).   And, in a storm like this, snow tires, chains and even 4WD weren't going to make a bit of difference for you.   Best advice: go home or to a hotel. 

Wyoming and Colorado are correct in what they do: they have gates and flashing signs.  If they close the highway, you don't want to be on it.  And they do this because no only are these areas prone to heavy snow, but to wind as well.  Stretches of highway that are plowed, then often covered by drifts a short time later.  Better to close the road than to pick dead bodies off of it 12 hours later.  If you're a traveler, you settle in and deal with it.  It is for your own good. 

Now, this answer does run contrary in some ways to my self-professed conservatism/libertarianism.  But, then again, driving is a priviledge and not a right.  The roads are ultimately state property. 

[roadman]

One ot the truly comical side effects of the travel ban in Massachusetts was that, two hours after the ban went into effect, the local stations were still broadcasting traffic reports.

[vdeane]

That's not the issue though. I-81 is probably plowed/packed to the point that you're driving on a solid surface when you're going 45 down it. The issue here is what happens when I-81 isn't plowed or even really compacted down and there's been a massive dumping of snow.

I-81 is located in the locally infamous Lake Ontario snowbelt and gets TONS of lake effect snow during the winter and frequent blizzards.  I have had the pleasure of driving down it in conditions similar to Nemo many times.

The way I see it, when it's 90 degrees and sunny, people have no problem calling out 'sick' from work and spend the day at the beach, the lake, etc.

When it's 20 degrees in a blizzard, everyone feels they have to be a hero, and their international company will collaspe if they're not in the office. 

So sometimes, the travel ban just needs to be in place to encourage people that, yes, really, the world will survive if you're not in the office to answer the phones.

Probably because they used so many "sick" days to spend on the beach that they fear being fired if the don't show up.

[PHLBOS]

One ot the truly comical side effects of the travel ban in Massachusetts was that, two hours after the ban went into effect, the local stations were still broadcasting traffic reports.

Did you by any chance see the front page of Friday's Boston Herald?  It showed an old Blizzard of '78 photo of the I-93 (MA 128)/MA 28 interchange (Exit 5/then-Exit 67) in Randolph complete w/the 1960s era MA 28 BGS' overheads that were still present at the time.

[SidS1045]

Did you by any chance see the front page of Friday's Boston Herald?  It showed an old Blizzard of '78 photo of the I-93 (MA 128)/MA 28 interchange (Exit 5/then-Exit 67) in Randolph complete w/the 1960s era MA 28 BGS' overheads that were still present at the time.

It's the still raw memories of scenes like this...



...that prompted the mandatory road closures in MA (not to mention the 99 deaths from the 1978 storm).  And while not saying that the ends necessarily justified the means, this morning most main roads were down to bare pavement.  Sometimes you need to get ahead of some people's stupidity.

By contrast, as I write this, portions of the Long Island Expressway in eastern Suffolk County are still impassable due to stuck vehicles.

[agentsteel53]

I'll bet that's a state-named shield there...

[bugo]

Travel shouldn't be 100% banned, but it should be strongly discouraged when the weather gets really bad.  Sometimes, one has to be on the road if they're trying to get home, for example.  What else are they going to do, pull over at the state line and freeze to death in their car?

[bugo]

Good idea? Bad idea? Prudent use of executive orders or overreaction and an unnecessary infringement on freedom to travel?

I don't think  banning driving is an infringement on one's freedom to travel. That's what feet are for.

Are you going to walk 300 miles in the snow?

[PHLBOS]

It's the still raw memories of scenes like this...



...that prompted the mandatory road closures in MA (not to mention the 99 deaths from the 1978 storm).  And while not saying that the ends necessarily justified the means, this morning most main roads were down to bare pavement.  Sometimes you need to get ahead of some people's stupidity.

By contrast, as I write this, portions of the Long Island Expressway in eastern Suffolk County are still impassable due to stuck vehicles.

Note: the then-fairly new BGS' at the I-95 interchange w/the 95 NORTH Dedham NH-Maine legend and the back of an I-93 shield.  These were one of the first overhead BGS' to show the I-95/93 shields for the 128/YDH section.

[NE2]

Are you going to walk 300 miles in the snow?

I don't have a say in this, do I, comrade Stalin?

[southshore720]

I applaud the decision.  After the Blizzard of '78, lessons were learned.  It's too bad that the bans didn't extend to the Long Island Expwy...that looked like a complete clusterf***.  The N.E. roads (which fared far worse) looked A LOT better than I-495!

[machias]

In upstate NY most people don't even know about these things called "snow tires", which is most unfortunate.  Nearly every winter storm the main challenge has not been to stay on the road but to pass all the people driving 15 mph because they don't have snow tires.  This once even resulted in me having the Thruway to myself for about 20 miles.

One time going up I-81, the road was completely passable at high speeds with snow tires but everyone was going 20 because of the multi-car pileups that inevitably happen when people forget what "winter" is.  A large accident even resulted in the closure of southbound I-81 between Sandy Creek and Pulaski.

As a teen I used to make a little pocket cash pulling cars out of the ditch on I-81 between Sandy Creek and Pulaski in the mid 80s. I didn't demand money but the frightened motorist would be so grateful that we pulled them out that they'd give us a little cash. I'd turn it down but they'd insist.

A LOT of the time the cars had out of state tags on them. We'd ask them why they were out in bad conditions and they didn't think it got that bad.

That all being said, I don't agree with the ban on travel from the governors. I think there should be very strong suggestions that folks don't travel, but if they do and they get stranded it's their own fault. I think the fines are ridiculous.That's like driving beyond the gates out west when the lights are flashing. If you get stuck, you're on your own. Rescue should be when they can get out there and should never endanger the lives of the rescuers to do it.

Perhaps I'm heartless.

[empirestate]

This particular storm was very severe, especially in Southern New England and on Long Island.  People really needed to be off the roads for their own good.   There were some qualms about the 'one size fits all' road closure in MA at 4 pm on Friday, but by Friday evening it was clear that nobody should be out there unless absolutely necessary (i.e. first responders and cleanup crews).   And, in a storm like this, snow tires, chains and even 4WD weren't going to make a bit of difference for you.   Best advice: go home or to a hotel.

That's an important point: much of Connecticut got in the neighborhood of forty inches. It takes less snow than that wedged up under your car, lifting your tires off the road altogether. Chains, studs, whatever...they won't make any difference if they're spinning in midair!

[cpzilliacus]

That's an important point: much of Connecticut got in the neighborhood of forty inches. It takes less snow than that wedged up under your car, lifting your tires off the road altogether. Chains, studs, whatever...they won't make any difference if they're spinning in midair!

I strongly agree.

I drive a Ford F-250 4x4 pickup with a 7.3L Diesel V8 engine (that motor is heavy, so I have decent weight over the front axle) and reasonably new mud+snow tires all around. 

In spite of all that, I am not driving my truck through 40 inches (yikes, that's more than 1 meter) of snow, even though the wheels are pretty tall and this vehicle sits high (it does not have a lift kit).

[SidS1045]

Travel shouldn't be 100% banned, but it should be strongly discouraged when the weather gets really bad.  Sometimes, one has to be on the road if they're trying to get home, for example.  What else are they going to do, pull over at the state line and freeze to death in their car?

We have now seen the results of not banning road travel outright.  I'll take the ban, and I'll be damned if my taxes are going to pay to rescue other people from their own stupidity.

No one HAS to get home that badly that they should risk getting stuck in the middle of nowhere, with their car becoming an impediment to emergency vehicles or snowplows.  I'd rather my wife know that I was safe and warm and out of harm's way somewhere, even if I'm sacking out on the floor of my office, instead of driving in the middle of a blizzard and risking not making it home.

[jeffandnicole]

The ban was correct.  If you need to get home, well, no you don't.  You can stay in a hotel.  If you needed to get home that badly, then you should've left earlier.

If the ban was voluntary, many people would think it doesn't apply to them.  Then they drive along, and the car slides.  They get stuck.  They block the other traffic that believed they didn't need to abide by the voluntary vehicle ban.  Then the plows can't get thru to plow the road because of the stuck traffic.  And every one of those drivers aren't getting home now, because of the conditions.

Look at the LI Expressway.  Every person on there probably thought the same thing - I NEED to get home.  And their cars are still stuck out there.

Travel shouldn't be 100% banned, but it should be strongly discouraged when the weather gets really bad.  Sometimes, one has to be on the road if they're trying to get home, for example.  What else are they going to do, pull over at the state line and freeze to death in their car?

Well, a 11 year old boy died from carbon dioxide poisoning while his dad shoveled snow away from the vehicle.  So yes, death in a vehicle is a real possibility.