They think we're stupid

[hbelkins]

West Virginia thinks drivers using southbound I-79 are to stupid to realize which exit they should take if they plan to take ARC Corridor L to Beckley and hit I-77, bypassing Charleston.

This sign appears on I-79 prior to the US 19 Morgantown/Westover exit just south of the Pennsylvania state line.



On the signage for the US 19 exit at Roanoke, just south of Weston, the US 19 route markers have been removed so drivers won't think this is the exit they should take to get to Beckley. There are US 19 markers on the northbound signage.

An example can be seen here: (mods, feel free to resize if desired)



Any other examples where DOTs seem to think motorists are stupid and don't know which exit to take?

[corco]

I don't know- I'm sure people have made that mistake on plenty of occasions. I was driving from Fryeburg, ME to Brentwood, NH without a map once and got off NH 16 onto NH 125 all the way up where the Spaulding Turnpike began instead of following 16 down to Rochester- before I left I just looked at a map real quick and said "16 to 125, got it" without realizing that 16 intersected 125 multiple times.

I would have appreciated a sign like that. Maybe that's on me for not having a map (in fairness, we had a map. My friend went from Brentwood to Boston with his girlfriend in her car and took the map, and I borrowed his car to go up to Maine), but I'm also probably not the first person ever to be relying on verbal directions without having a map. If I were driving from Erie to Beckley and somebody said "take 79 to 19" and I didn't have time or access to a map, I could see myself making that mistake.

[dave19]

Also on southbound I-79: At exit 139, there is no route number shield on the BGS. Northbound, you do see one - for CR 33. I assume that's so southbound traffic doesn't mistake it for US 33, which you encounter at exit 99.

I was in the parking lot of the Buckhannon Lowe's a few years ago when someone who was lost approached me, saying that their friend told them to get off I-79 at the 119 exit and go right. Problem was, she wanted to go to Bridgeport; I told her she should have stayed on the interstate until she got to Exit 119, not US Route 119. So I gave her better directions and she went on her way.

I do think there are some people who might take the wrong exit, especially if somebody gives them directions that aren't detailed enough like "Take 79 into West Virginia then onto 19 south until you get to the WV Turnpike". I'll bet they had a number of confused truck drivers in that area before they erected that sign!

[NE2]

We are stupid.

[Alex]

West Virginia thinks drivers using southbound I-79 are to stupid to realize which exit they should take if they plan to take ARC Corridor L to Beckley and hit I-77, bypassing Charleston.

This sign appears on I-79 prior to the US 19 Morgantown/Westover exit just south of the Pennsylvania state line.

On the signage for the US 19 exit at Roanoke, just south of Weston, the US 19 route markers have been removed so drivers won't think this is the exit they should take to get to Beckley. There are US 19 markers on the northbound signage.

I noted this last summer and had wondered why the shields on those Roanoke signs were removed.

[OracleUsr]

Okay, so you get off at US 19 in Roanoke (Jeez, why don't they say Roanoke, WV, while they're at it?) and take that to Beckley, is it really THAT bad?  You bypass the Turnpike completely that way.

[hbelkins]

US 19 between the Roanoke exit and where it joins I-79 at Flatwoods, prior to the Beckley exit, is your typical West Virginia two-lane road. It's not a route intended for through traffic or truck traffic when I-79 is available. Only reason I've driven it was to clinch US 19 in WV and I have no plans to ever drive it again.

You'd have to take US 19 all the way past Beckley to Princeton to bypass the turnpike.

[OracleUsr]

Yeah, but if you're only GOING to Beckley or Tamarack...

Still I see your point.

[empirestate]

US 19 between the Roanoke exit and where it joins I-79 at Flatwoods, prior to the Beckley exit, is your typical West Virginia two-lane road. It's not a route intended for through traffic or truck traffic when I-79 is available. Only reason I've driven it was to clinch US 19 in WV and I have no plans to ever drive it again.

Well that sounds like a sure sign that I would love it!

[cpzilliacus]

Years ago, Delaware DOT did not post any reference to U.S. 301 on the southbound side of I-95 (Delaware Turnpike) approaching Del. 896 (Exit 1), presumably because they did not want motorists to realize that they could leave I-95 and avoid the Turnpike tolls by taking 301 south into Maryland (there is at least one reference to U.S. 301 posted now).

[amroad17]

They don't think we're stupid, just the average non-road enthusiast motorist.

[Kacie Jane]

Okay, so you get off at US 19 in Roanoke (Jeez, why don't they say Roanoke, WV, while they're at it?) and take that to Beckley, is it really THAT bad?

Yes.

Yeah, but if you're only GOING to Beckley or Tamarack...

then you still really don't want to get off at Exit 91.  It's 1.5 times longer by mileage, and twice as long by time according to the Goog.

[Sykotyk]

Just saw that sign today, actually.

The reason is, not everybody makes note of 'Take I-79 to exit 57, Take US19 south to Beckley, etc'. Most would say: Take I-79 South to US19 South to Beckley. When two roads parallel for so long, and then suddenly diverge so drastically, it is rather important to make sure you post exactly when the best point is.

Really, the multiple US19 crossings with I-79 is no different than the signs in Maryland advising you of MD68 and I-68, just so that motorists know which one they should be looking for.

[roadman65]

How about when Toll Road names are written on the same sign as their official shields?  Like the New Jersey Turnpike guide signs which feature both a NJT trailblazer and "NJ TURNPIKE" or "NJ Turnpike" spelled out in some places.  Even in Florida on the FL 528 Toll Road, the Exit 4 guides for the FL Turnpike that had a shield only to denote the Turnpike now has the word "Turnpike" added to it.

Of course in Florida's case, it most likely has to do with the fact many tourists travel that part of FL 528 and the Turnpike Enterprise who maintains that road feel that most people are not familiar with the official shield of Florida' Turnpike.  However, some may feel that in New Jersey it may be redundant and even one member here on his personal website expressed that fact.

[Central Avenue]

How about when Toll Road names are written on the same sign as their official shields?  Like the New Jersey Turnpike guide signs which feature both a NJT trailblazer and "NJ TURNPIKE" or "NJ Turnpike" spelled out in some places.  Even in Florida on the FL 528 Toll Road, the Exit 4 guides for the FL Turnpike that had a shield only to denote the Turnpike now has the word "Turnpike" added to it.

Of course in Florida's case, it most likely has to do with the fact many tourists travel that part of FL 528 and the Turnpike Enterprise who maintains that road feel that most people are not familiar with the official shield of Florida' Turnpike.  However, some may feel that in New Jersey it may be redundant and even one member here on his personal website expressed that fact.

Not a toll road, but similar:

[1995hoo]

Westbound I-70 in Maryland approaching the Clear Spring exit (I think it's Clear Spring–it's the exit where Ski Whitetail is) has a sign reading, "NEXT EXIT IS [MD-68 shield] [Horizontal separator line] FOR [I-68 shield] National Freeway STAY ON [I-70 shield]" I know there are pictures of the sign online, but I don't know of a good way to grab image properties when posting by iPad.

I've always thought you have to be kinda stupid to need that warning, but I guess some people just say things like "Take 70 to 68." I always use multiple references when giving directions ("Take I-70 west towards Hancock, then take Exit 1 onto I-68 west.  The sign will list Cumberland."), but I guess a lot of people don't.

I've also never heard that road called the "National Freeway" except on that sign.

[NE2]

I've also never heard that road called the "National Freeway" except on that sign.

from http://www.millenniumhwy.net/Washington_CD_2004/index.html

[roadman65]

How about when Toll Road names are written on the same sign as their official shields?  Like the New Jersey Turnpike guide signs which feature both a NJT trailblazer and "NJ TURNPIKE" or "NJ Turnpike" spelled out in some places.  Even in Florida on the FL 528 Toll Road, the Exit 4 guides for the FL Turnpike that had a shield only to denote the Turnpike now has the word "Turnpike" added to it.

Of course in Florida's case, it most likely has to do with the fact many tourists travel that part of FL 528 and the Turnpike Enterprise who maintains that road feel that most people are not familiar with the official shield of Florida' Turnpike.  However, some may feel that in New Jersey it may be redundant and even one member here on his personal website expressed that fact.

Not a toll road, but similar:

Steve has one similar on  alpsroads.net of one entering NJ on US 9 from the Cape May Ferry for the Garden State Parkway.

It probably be more effective to say"FOLLOW THIS SHIELD *** FOR THIS ROAD" as that is what they are trying to point out.

[SP Cook]

The situation HB describes is why the ARCs should be signed with their own signs.

To flesh out the situation, US 19 is a local road of poor quality that roughly parallels I-79 from until one reaches Exit 57, where it becomes Corridor L and heads directly south to I-77 at Beckley (while I-79 goes more west than south, to Charleston), where it again becomes an unimportant road that parallels I-77.  By taking US 19 one saves 42 miles, reduces one's Turnpike toll from $6 to $2.40 and avoids the malpractice of design that is the 60 MPH SL, crashfest northern 40% of the Turnpike (and Charleston's "urban" traffic, such as it is).   This is the way to Florida for Toronto, Buffalo, Pittsburgh. 

So people have directions of "take I-79 to US 19 to I-77...".  but the problem is there are dozens of exits between the PA line and Exit 57 which are for US 19, none of which are the right one.  So WV puts up the sign mentioned and then omits the US 19 shield for southbound exits between Morgantown and the proper exit (and the Turnpike omits the US 19 shiled at Exit 20 northbound for the same reason in reverse). 

The whole thing could be solved if the ARCs were simply signed.  Directions would be "take I-79 to Corridor L to I-77".

I drive the route in question a lot, and the number of people who get lost by taking the first US 19 exit and get hopelessly lost in the confusing web of roads in Morgantown or Fairmont is more than you would think.

Another solution, since US 19 likewise simply parallels I-79 in Pennsylvania, would be to decommission the road north of Exit 57, as it serves no through highway purpose north of that point.

A similar situation exists as one approaches Charleston on I-79, as it mostly parallels the unimportant US 119, with most exits being US 119.  Until one reaches the one and only one exit where US 119 becomes Corridor G.

As to the I-68 situation, again this is a problem that could have been solved by ARC signage.  The road was originally US 40 in the east and then US 48 in the west.  WV and MD didn't like that and "backfilled" it as I-68.  The problem being that Maryland already had a MD 68, it being an exit from I-70, just as I-68 was to be.  If they had just signed the road as "ARC E", no problems.

[J N Winkler]

Returning to the I-79 Roanoke example:  I object to the design, but not because I think it insults motorists' intelligence:

*  The sign message is oriented toward "TRUCKS" whereas the potential for confusion makes the message equally useful to passenger car drivers.  "TRUCKS," on the other hand, will prompt those drivers to ignore the sign message.

*  "Route 19" instead of shield looks awful.

*  "To Beckley" looks awful ("To" is a particle, not part of primary destination legend).

*  White background implies the message is regulatory, when it is not.  (Presumably trucks are still allowed to use the unimproved portion of US 19 although it is not recommended for them.)

*  The sign message as a whole uses jussive language to spell out a route which the driver has the option of not following.

I have devised the following sign designs as attempts to resolve all of these objections.

Option 1:



Option 2:



Option 1 does not altogether avoid the use of jussive language but is economical in use of words and visually reasonably well balanced.  Option 2 spells out the reason the US 19 route is preferred (which it is, per Google Maps--1 hour 38 minutes via US 19 versus 2 hours 3 minutes via the alternative route), but is verbose and less well-balanced visually.

Either of these signs should work well to keep Beckley-bound traffic off the unimproved length of US 19, but there is some risk that they may mislead traffic which wants a comprehensively access-controlled route (and thus is willing to accept the time penalty of the Interstate routing) to exit onto US 19 at Exit 57.

I would not remove US 19 from the Roanoke advance guide and exit direction signs.  There are two solutions which appear to me better than suppressing the route number:  US 19 on these signs with a "SLOW ROUTE" banner, or a separate supplemental guide sign with an US 19 shield, "SLOW ROUTE," and "EXITS 91-57."

[cpzilliacus]

Westbound I-70 in Maryland approaching the Clear Spring exit (I think it's Clear Spring–it's the exit where Ski Whitetail is) has a sign reading, "NEXT EXIT IS [MD-68 shield] [Horizontal separator line] FOR [I-68 shield] National Freeway STAY ON [I-70 shield]" I know there are pictures of the sign online, but I don't know of a good way to grab image properties when posting by iPad.

I've always thought you have to be kinda stupid to need that warning, but I guess some people just say things like "Take 70 to 68." I always use multiple references when giving directions ("Take I-70 west towards Hancock, then take Exit 1 onto I-68 west.  The sign will list Cumberland."), but I guess a lot of people don't.

I've also never heard that road called the "National Freeway" except on that sign.

The Maryland State Highway Administration's Highway Location Reference does show it having a name of National Freeway.

[hbelkins]

Something similar could be experienced on the Mountain Parkway and KY 15. There are two interchanges with KY 15 before the exit for what is generally considered to be the southeastern extension of the parkway, at Campton, leading to Jackson, Hazard and Whitesburg. Yet Kentucky signs KY 15 at Exit 16 and Exit 40.

[Sykotyk]

Another example where this similar signage should be in place is on OH2 east of Port Clinton. If you want to take OH163 west to OH420 and the I-280/I-80/I-90), you want to make sure you take the SECOND exit heading west. If you take the first exit, you will drive right through the small town before crossing OH2 again.

[InterstateNG]

Another example where this similar signage should be in place is on OH2 east of Port Clinton. If you want to take OH163 west to OH420 and the I-280/I-80/I-90), you want to make sure you take the SECOND exit heading west. If you take the first exit, you will drive right through the small town before crossing OH2 again.

There is very little traffic using the routing you suggest though.

[andrewkbrown]

Westbound I-70 in Maryland approaching the Clear Spring exit (I think it's Clear Spring–it's the exit where Ski Whitetail is) has a sign reading, "NEXT EXIT IS [MD-68 shield] [Horizontal separator line] FOR [I-68 shield] National Freeway STAY ON [I-70 shield]" I know there are pictures of the sign online, but I don't know of a good way to grab image properties when posting by iPad.

I've always thought you have to be kinda stupid to need that warning, but I guess some people just say things like "Take 70 to 68." I always use multiple references when giving directions ("Take I-70 west towards Hancock, then take Exit 1 onto I-68 west.  The sign will list Cumberland."), but I guess a lot of people don't.

I've also never heard that road called the "National Freeway" except on that sign.

It amuses me each time I drive past it on my way to "Ohio and Points West" (in reference to another sign on I-70 West describing upcoming I-68).

https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.653119,-77.90343&spn=0.008855,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.653111,-77.907404&panoid=e6VSNYwgzRm4fK7I2EExUw&cbp=12,311.18,,1,-4.28